Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Bong-cha Jones on 23 Mar 2011, 00:27
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I'm not sure one would expect "waltz" from a faction that has its primary naming scheme after Persian/Arabic styles, whereas we know the Gallenteans are former monarchists with a name scheme based off French, English, Germanic and Italian styles (eg. Harner and Villore systems). Even the awful French reference re: the Gallente that has been removed. Then the word "masque" is French, and the whole concept of a masquerade was developed in France. Without the lolfrench thing, for example, the styles of extravagant, multi-coloured costumes and hedonism definitely sounds Gallentean to me.
Why would one expect musical styles to stay closely matched to the naming schemes developed alongside them 20,000 years ago (in the setting)? Waltzes are formal, regal and upper class. Amarrian parties probably shoot for the same thing, so why not use them? The word masquerade may be French, but that doesn't make it Gallentean proprietary culture. Hedonism is more a function of carnivales than masquerades and I suspect you're conflating the two.
Which isn't to say that I disapprove of Seriphyn complaining; I do not! But I do think you, the player, sometimes get a little overzealous about what the other empires may or may not lay claim too.
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Not to sure if you're calling myself or my character a twit (the latter of which is often valid and correct), but I'm not sure one would expect "waltz" from a faction that has its primary naming scheme after Persian/Arabic styles, whereas we know the Gallenteans are former monarchists with a name scheme based off French, English, Germanic and Italian styles (eg. Harner and Villore systems). Even the awful French reference re: the Gallente that has been removed. Then the word "masque" is French, and the whole concept of a masquerade was developed in France. Without the lolfrench thing, for example, the styles of extravagant, multi-coloured costumes and hedonism definitely sounds Gallentean to me.
So are all the pod pilots speaking English rather than a variety of languages translated for ease of communication? Do you think any of the dances today would be the same 20,000 years from now? If any are would the current origins of the dances or their names be at all relevant?
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I don't think "waltz" would even exist that far into the future and so detached from Earth, no. I would have personally developed something completely unique for the Amarr that may have been similar, but not be derivative of an RL dance. You wouldn't expect the Caldari to have ballet, for example.
It's all translation though. Why couldn't Amarrians have a dance which would be equivalent to a "waltz" and translate as such without it having any of the cultural or historical baggage we associate with the term?
I think you're maybe taking things literally in a way that doesn't make much sense.
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I don't think "waltz" would even exist that far into the future and so detached from Earth, no. I would have personally developed something completely unique for the Amarr that may have been similar, but not be derivative of an RL dance. You wouldn't expect the Caldari to have ballet, for example.
It's all translation though. Why couldn't Amarrians have a dance which would be equivalent to a "waltz" and translate as such without it having any of the cultural or historical baggage we associate with the term?
I think you're maybe taking things literally in a way that doesn't make much sense.
Exactly. If everything has a weird-ass name, then it will be difficult to learn all the lingo for proper interaction. It's very probable there would be something similar to for example waltz in the setting if not even a direct descendant of that very thing. So why no call it waltz, then? It's not like all the ship names are all new worlds, either.
There is a place for made-up linguistics and coming up with a whole new world filled with wondrous objects that never happened in our reality. I don't think Eve is necessarily that place in the large application sense of it, especially since it is indeed placed in a universe that shares our reality as background. Some fantasy settings go for that thing as an interesting exercise, but I don't think every imaginary world created should follow that pattern.
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There is no CCP information regarding this right now, so the only thing we've got to go on is extrapolation.
Naming is one big thing that I personally go with in terms of using as a reference point for such things. It would make little sense, for example, if the Gallenteans had something called "samurai". Why? Because we know samurais are Japanese, and the Gallenteans do not resemble Japanese in anyway. Similarly, the Achuran names are Japanese-esque; we wouldn't expect them to have West African names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_dance#Styles
This article here has many dance styles that we could associate with Amarr; look at the some of the names there, then compare it with the names we have of Amarrians. Take a look at the syllables there, too. If you type in "Sha" to solar system search, pretty much all the systems that come up are Amarrian (Shabura, Shajarleg, Shafrak, etc, about 18 in total). Similarly, about 8 systems come up for the "Kh" syllable that are Amarrian.
Sort of deviated about the specific point regarding "waltz", but in these areas where there is absolutely ZERO information regarding a certain RP topic, then I always found the best bet is to look at naming and aesthetic, and make the connections as such. For this, spurred my OOC "eh" at an Amarrian waltz and masquerade, the same way we would go "eh" at Caldari bhangra.
tl;dr - No PF regarding dance, only point of reference is naming habits IMO.
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Well, it's off-topic, but I've argued this somewhere else before more extensively: I don't think there is any concrete evidence to be found in the Amarr empire to support a Persian connection. A few similar syllables is at least not concrete to me.
(http://www.gwjokes.com/cartoons/clear-link.jpg)
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Disagree. Naming habits are greatly divorced from the cultures that spawned them along with associated trappings.
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So Caldari bhangra would be fine, then? :P
We get a lot of "lolFrench" with Gallente, due to naming, and this is proliferated a lot amongst the RP community. But pointing out Persian stuff with Amarr is erroneous?
edit - it's not exactly syllables, I'm talking about their entire range of system names. Would CCP have given the Fed systems Russian names while saying there were initially French? stuff like that
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[mod]Please avoid generalizations about 'the RP community'.[/mod]
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We get a lot of "lolFrench" with Gallente, due to naming, and this is proliferated a lot amongst the RP community.
But the lolFrench is not because of naming. It's because CCP quite directly stated that they are Tau Ceti French settlers, making the connection in the setting material. The Caldari have had a link made to the Japanese/Finnish. In the same source (that Chinese CCP site way back when), the Amarrians had connections drawn to the Balkans.
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Then I shift posture, and note that the Intaki have a lot of Indian subcontinent influences to them, yet ethnically, they appear as Generic White People™
But, yeah, WRT the original point of waltz, from my understanding and looking at things, I would not expect waltz from the Amarr the same reason that, again, I would not expect bhangra from the Caldari.
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Out of curiosity, because it's pretty far removed from my normal RP spheres of interest, what ties the Intaki to the subcontinent beyond the Reborn?
And while I see nothing wrong with Seriphyn having his viewpoint on what to expect from the Amarr, everyone should just keep repeating "it's a big cluster" to themselves. Hell, I have slightly different interpretations of (say) Sebiestor nomadism than somebody else might, and that's cool too.
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But, yeah, WRT the original point of waltz, from my understanding and looking at things, I would not expect waltz from the Amarr the same reason that, again, I would not expect bhangra from the Caldari.
Elaborate. Amarrian culture seems like it would be exactly the breeding ground for formal dances that could translate as "waltzes".
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Your original post was removed to the Catacombs. Please express your opinion a little more respectfully.
More respectfully: I think CCP painted the different factions very broadly for the sake of simplicity and easier storytelling. I think the idea that empires spanning hundreds of inhabitted worlds would be so culturaly homogenous is pretty ridiculous. As such, I would fully expect to find samurai somewhere in the gallente federation and ballroom dancing in the empire. For people who don't care about RP or are simply new to it, simplicity is good, it keeps it from feeling overwhelming. For people who have spent hours and days learning about and playing in this world, I think the diversity of the people in the cluster shouldn't be quite as duanting.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_dance#Styles
Ouuuu! Nice!
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I'm honestly wondering why this is an issue. Its effectively a minor tweak one way or another that doesn't particularly harm anyone's RP. Why do we need to dissect each and every little thing for "accuracy" can't we just have fun with the setting and not worry about the details that CCP themselves haven't worried about?
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Once again, repeat with me: "it's a big cluster". :D
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What's funny is even if CCP did spell everything out in explicit detail, people will still argue and debate interpretation.
It's a big clusterf-... cluster.
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I'd suggest that we have limited bandwidth for our RP over text channels, and describing something as a waltz does not need to imply that it's a similar dance in any way to a modern (or even original) waltz, other than that it fits into the same general social niche - it's a short-hand for a formal structured dance.
And given that IRL you could probably find waltz schools throughout much of the world (I bet you could find them in Russia, India, China and the US for a start - probably not Iran though, maybe Iraq before the war) There's no particular reason to think that if the waltz survived into the far future it would do so through the French.
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This is something I poke at from time to time.
Is a waltz a waltz, or is it "a particular type of dance which has similar social (and physical?) characteristics and meaning to an early-21st-century waltz"?
I incline towards saying it's the EVE-universe equivalent of a waltz, not that humans waltzed through 20,000 years. I use "waltz" as a convenient package which sums up a huge amount of information, helps set the scene and allows us to concentrate on other aspects of the interaction. That means that in my RP a waltz might indeed look like a waltz, just as there are strands of Gallente art dance which I describe in terms of current ballet and Isadora-Duncan-style free dance. I want to use the resonances those have: to be able to compare ballet school with RMS basic training, for instance. So there are times when I translate, using modern terms to stand in for their EVE equivalents.
(This is just one thing I do, alongside extrapolation and invention. We have lots of tools in our RP toolboxes. It's fun to give them a workout.)
One of the reasons for using current RL words and concepts is to allow us to extrapolate based on what we know and assume. If someone's a confident dancer -- or not -- that suggests things about their background and personality. If someone's hand is slipping too low, that tells me something that doesn't need huge amounts of explanation. On the whole, I find this very useful.
I think a problem comes when we have different RL assumptions about things and we then draw different conclusions about the significance of an action.
So, for instance, a chain of thought might go "They're waltzing; waltzing is French; French is the stand-in we use for Gallentean; other stuff here is pinging my Gallente-dar: These people are doing Gallente stuff! Soon they'll be doing market research and voting on things!".
I might respond saying "I think they're using 'waltz' to stand on for some sort of formal partner dance: I always thought of the Amarrians as doing minuets, myself", or I might say "Dude, waltzing is German".
I don't think it's a bad thing to derive what you think an action means from assumptions about what's described: given how little canon we have and how much of that is debatable, and how rich our RP lives and relationships can be, I think we need to extrapolate a fair bit. I do think it's awkward when either our assumptions or the layers we build on them turn out to be different, and sometimes opposed.
Sometimes we can work that out by talking about it. Sometimes we just shrug and say "we do things differently in my clan/alliance/planet/polity" or "science must have advanced: isn't that wonderful". Sometimes some pilots end up thinking other pilots are mad, deceived or lying because they insist on things that clearly cannot be so. (That last one can lead to heartache and schisms. Classic bones of contention would be flying pod-ships without a pod, and whether it's possible to provide back-ups of crew.)
No big conclusion here. This is a pattern I see often. Mostly it works okay-to-well. Sometimes it doesn't. Maybe watch for it and think about it.
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Anyway, waltz is of austrian origin, not french, isn't it ?
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I'm more than willing to attribute a hodgepodge of current cultural heritages to almost any and all races and factions in Eve. Take the Matari as an example. When it comes to much of Matari culture I'm willing to incorporate anything from Norse mythology/culture to the voodoo of the Pacific (or it's ancestors in African culture) in the faith/culture along with all kinds of modern day society features and cultures simply because you can.
Would that block any of the other Eve cultures/nations from having something similar? Hardly. Since we OoC know everything in New Eden originally came from one place (Earth) and that everyone came through the Eve Gate... Well, that there'd be a freakin' hodgepodge of cultures, faiths and such involved in every last grouping out there is something I'd take for granted. If nothing else, the knowledge of the other cultural traits and such out there would be common.
Then, once the cataclysmic events that knocked us all back to planetbound life came along, it'd make sense that when rediscovering/reinventing things, there'd be all kinds of common links between the various factions/peoples in various degrees. Each would evolve a distinct culture and way, but in various degrees you'd probably find many similarities.
Amarr Nobility dancing a waltz? Definitely acceptable to me.
Besides, as Borza's mentioned a few times, not a single one of us in Eve speaks English so it's all just translations/terms that don't necessarily correspond to our real life equivalents.
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Out of curiosity, because it's pretty far removed from my normal RP spheres of interest, what ties the Intaki to the subcontinent beyond the Reborn?
'Ida' is rooted in Sanskrit. The oath of the Idamas is very similar to the Bodhisattva oath. The tropical nature of the world fits too, something that quite a few players have built on in their writing. I mean, personally, I've drawn heavily on the pueblo peoples and the Dogon for my influences, but I've intentionally been setting Simon's background up to be somewhat at odds with the default Intaki experience. Can't say it's raised too many eyebrows; the cluster is very, very big :)
Seri: Why not have Caldari bhangra? It's an energetic, athletic dance(s) with communal functions. There's gotta be room for that somewhere in the State, even if it's just something workers do together in their spare time at celebrations.
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Thanks, Simon. And just to overemphasize, I wasn't criticizing, just trying to understand as most of the areas where I've spent time and attention have different foci completely. :)
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If you ask me, Amarrians all dance like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anN_L-JiyIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anN_L-JiyIA)
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While the Khanids are more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3it4c0dcU4c
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While the Khanids are more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3it4c0dcU4c
And then there's Katashi dancing with Shin (from a ton of different angles. Amazing what angles and lighting will do to make things look different). Dancing... Shin/Katashi style. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lef9nWH5HA)
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I think it's hilarious that you're all arguing over someone's imagination. CCP hasn't even given out any info over this, and so you must come up with something? No one is right here, no one is wrong, so just RP without having to make a reference to every EARTH-RELATED THING.
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I think it's hilarious that you're all arguing over someone's imagination. CCP hasn't even given out any info over this, and so you must come up with something? No one is right here, no one is wrong, so just RP without having to make a reference to every EARTH-RELATED THING.
Benjamin, in light of what I've said above about using Earth-terms to stand in for things -- because we have an awful lot of gaps to fill in the EVE-world and it can be an effective way to fill those quickly -- how do you suggest I RP? Do it all in terms of the stuff I make up especially for EVE?
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If you ask me, Amarrians all dance like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anN_L-JiyIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anN_L-JiyIA)
If you ask me, I think it's more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g62Dsv7WS6A&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g62Dsv7WS6A&feature=related)
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Personally, I have an approach similar to Borza, and if necessary explain names as something the translator does. ( http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02 )
The speaker uses a word in their own language and culture, and the translator finds a dance name that most closely matches the thing talked about for the listener. I explain made up dances as translator imperfections - the translator either did not know the original word at all, or there was no corresponding dance name that could be matched with any accuracy. :)
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Then to some wild speculation in a separate post. The usual disclaimers about big cluster naturally apply. ;)
About Amarr dance styles, and Amarr formal balls:
I personally imagine upper-class Amarr public social dancing as regal, formal and elaborate. Something that makes upstarts without proper breeding and education stumble embarrassingly and show their common roots? :P
I imagine mostly dances for small groups of both genders. Intricate dance figures, symbology traced to the floor by dance choreography. Moderately complex but not very athletic steps - stuff that looks good in formal robes, but does not create an undignified smell of sweat.
I imagine very little or no body contact at all - couples/groups might hold hands, a common token like a ribbon, or perhaps not touch each other at all, only connected by simultaneous movement. Possibly the person in higher social standing would "lead" if there are parts where one has to go first or decide on a variation of coreography. Perhaps pauses where some people in the dance set stop dancing for a bit to allow for court intrigue?
There would also naturally be less formal social dance styles for less public and formal occasions, where appearances and dignity would not be so much an issue. I tend to imagine Amarr as a people with a strict ideas about what is appropriate in public and private.
About waltzing:
If I had to pick a single Eve nation for waltz, to me personally waltz (and most other ballroom dancing) associates most strongly with Gallente. Specifically, a Gallente formal social dance feel.
Male-female couples. Partner held in close body contact encircled by your arms (and legs stepping between legs!). Couples dancing simultaneously in the same ballroom with very little personal space reserved for each.
Improvised freeform steps and figures based on simple basic step and rhythm. Easy to learn and participate in for everybody. And everybody does get to participate equally all at once, instead of, say, only after all the higher-rank people have danced.
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I personally imagine upper-class Amarr public social dancing as regal, formal and elaborate. Something that makes upstarts without proper breeding and education stumble embarrassingly and show their common roots? :P
Something like a Pavanne, then?
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I personally imagine upper-class Amarr public social dancing as regal, formal and elaborate. Something that makes upstarts without proper breeding and education stumble embarrassingly and show their common roots? :P
Something like a Pavanne, then?
With galliards and gavottes and the like to show the oicks how it's done. Vigor, but controlled and refined vigor.