Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 06 Mar 2011, 09:42
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The awesome infodump regarding the Caldari financial system (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Caldari_Financial_System) was fantastic in detailing that side of EVE economics, but I get the impression that people see the Caldari as holding a monopoly on megacorporations and that culture. Likely because Caldari megacorporations have straight-up, generalized names, whereas Gallente megacorporations have specialized names, even if their scope is equal. There is some areas to be exploded in Minmatar/Amarr, but I get the feeling that CCP's fictional focus on those two is less about business and economy.
Anyway, Gallentean megacorporations I feel have a different sort of objective/doctrine than Caldari ones. Since the State IS its megacorporations, Caldari firms have an interest in the overall welfare of the nation itself, politics and military and so on. Gallentean megacorporations, on the other hand, have their own agenda. CreoDron, recently, has been the/a leader in wormhole exploration. A high-tech robotics company seeking to acquire the latest and greatest technology while avoiding the eyes of the Federation government, and similar regulation. In fact, from Lost Stars, we see how Quafe tries to dodge the Federation's habit of moral accountability and ethical outrage. They are their own entity within a much larger picture, whereas in the State, these megas ARE the larger picture.
Bleh, sleepy for some reason, I keep deleting this post and trying again to detail my thoughts.
We know that the Gallenteans have PMCs too, such as those operated by Roden Shipyards, CreoDron and Temko. Again, their jobs might be different. They're not in it to hold onto political, sovereign territory like the Caldari megas, but purely to protect the physical assets of these megas and project their interests. The whole interplay is everyone seeking their own objectives; the democratically-elected legislature, the entrenched lobbyists, the varying cultures and memegroups (which again branches off massively and may connect to others), the President, the megacorporations, military cabals/factions (possibly), all against and within each other. Political groups v economic groups v social groups v military groups. This contrasts with the State, where the interplay is between megacorporations and not much else.
You do have scope for megacorporate RP with the Gallente, but even I would pick something like "Hyasyoda Corporation" over "Quafe Company", even if the former is larger and more ominous than the latter. Purely by name, and not details, the Caldari megas straight-up sound cooler.
Briefly exploring Minmatar/Amarr economics, it doesn't seem to be a "focal point" of their culture. Both the Gallente and Caldari put stock into the accumulation of wealth as one facet of their culture, whereas the Minmatar and Amarr do not care so much, instead their culture is based around their traditions. Instead, I was thinking that the rate of self-employment in the Amarr Empire and Minmatar Republic is much, MUCH higher than it is in the Federation and State, as people tend to not be subjects of megacorporations. In the State, citizens are overtly controlled and are property of megacorporations, and in the Federation, they are subtly influenced and indirectly controlled with the pretenses of "freedom of choice". Perhaps in the Empire/Republic, a city will instead have a lot of local businesses and shopkeepers, instead of ominous megacorporations dominating everyone's FOV (ie. Quafe, FedMart, ED etc.).
That said, these stall merchants in Dam-Torsad sell "the latest in faked Caille leather"; with the market for Gallentean goods created through their media industry, and the Caldari forcing their market in through capitalistic aggression, I'm sure you'll see ominious corporations controlling the more larger cities in Republic/Empire.
Interesting to note that the largest arms manufacturer in EVE is Imperial Armaments, who have stations everywhere. I'll be curious to know what exactly they make, and likely pump out countless, cheap-but-reliable arms to their local customers with their technology and culture in mind, ie. Just because it's an Amarr corp with Amarr stations, doesn't mean all they make is Amarr ships and weapons.
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In the State, citizens are overtly controlled and are property of megacorporations, and in the Federation, they are subtly influenced and indirectly controlled with the pretenses of "freedom of choice".
This is directly untrue. Citizens are not the "property" of the megas, they are "assets". There is a big difference. Citizens can move between megas, as stated in such documents as the after-EA state of the cluster infodump, and remember that Megas are not the only companies in the State. There are, according to lore, thousands or millions of companies - the megas are just the largest and most powerful, often holding controlling interests in the smaller corporations. As far as overtly controlled, it appears from news articles that the State, or at least its corporations, have a healthy judicial system working to guarantee the rights of citizens and corporations - consider the article where Heth tried to arrest 3 Sansha sympathizers. If the State controlled citizens with no civil liberties, there would be no case to report on.
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Well, yes, but that's just a single word in my greater analysis. My point was is that State citizens are "citizen-employees" of one of the eight megas, who control 90% of everything in the State. I was contrasting that with the Federation, the idea that the owning of property is split between the government (Federal, district, planetary, sub-planetary, local), member states, individuals and, ironically enough, companies and megacorporations as well.
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You can have a Federal citizen just as beholden to his employer as any State citizen.
The day-to-day difference between someone who works in a CreoDron Factory station and a Wiyrkomi Factory station is likely insignificant. Sure the CreoDron employee gets to vote for representatives at various levels, but get down far enough and they are carefully screened/selected by CreoDron. The CreoDron employee shops at stores approved by CreoDron, lives in a hab run by a CreoDron subsidary, and banks with the CreoDron Credit Union.
Yes, planetside there may be a bit more "freedom of choice," but on the frontier, towns, cities, etc are going to all be enclaves of whatever corporation paid to build them and is extracting the resources.
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Well, no, the Caldari Financial piece makes it clear that non-Caldari worlds enjoy more variety and competitive pricing than Caldari ones, except on the densely populated, multi-corp controlled Caldari worlds, where it's closest to the same for the upper-class. Exceptions may exist, I'm sure, but aren't representative pretty much by definition.
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Worlds certainly, but I didn't say worlds.
I said towns, cities, and stations.
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ooOOO nice infodump is nice
Briefly exploring Minmatar/Amarr economics, it doesn't seem to be a "focal point" of their culture. Both the Gallente and Caldari put stock into the accumulation of wealth as one facet of their culture, whereas the Minmatar and Amarr do not care so much, instead their culture is based around their traditions. Instead, I was thinking that the rate of self-employment in the Amarr Empire and Minmatar Republic is much, MUCH higher than it is in the Federation and State, as people tend to not be subjects of megacorporations. In the State, citizens are overtly controlled and are property of megacorporations, and in the Federation, they are subtly influenced and indirectly controlled with the pretenses of "freedom of choice". Perhaps in the Empire/Republic, a city will instead have a lot of local businesses and shopkeepers, instead of ominous megacorporations dominating everyone's FOV (ie. Quafe, FedMart, ED etc.).
That said, these stall merchants in Dam-Torsad sell "the latest in faked Caille leather"; with the market for Gallentean goods created through their media industry, and the Caldari forcing their market in through capitalistic aggression, I'm sure you'll see ominious corporations controlling the more larger cities in Republic/Empire.
Interesting to note that the largest arms manufacturer in EVE is Imperial Armaments, who have stations everywhere. I'll be curious to know what exactly they make, and likely pump out countless, cheap-but-reliable arms to their local customers with their technology and culture in mind, ie. Just because it's an Amarr corp with Amarr stations, doesn't mean all they make is Amarr ships and weapons.
I think the amarr economical/social structure is quite like the caldari one in some points, and totally different on the financial side :
- On the social/economical side we have megacorporations in the State controlling almost everything directly under their "jurisdiction". It works the same way with the Holders in the Empire, which hold most of the wealth and even more, the lands (and thus everything being on these lands). The people here work for the local Holder (small or big), Holder that is himself maybe working for a higher branch of his genealogy (for example a lower Holder being part of a bigger Holder that has indirect link with say, Sarum, and then working only half independantly of the Sarum might, who is the top Holder). It is very similar to the pyramidal structure of the state corporation (lower corps working at least partially for the megas, and the megas / holders controlling almost everything : workers, assets, land, tools, finances, etc).
- On the financial side, while the State has private independant banks as stated in the infodump (Modern Finances, etc), the Empire is a very nationalizing and centralized state (a little communist on that side), which means every corporation that is not privately owned by a Holder is ruled and owned by the Empire itself (Imperial Armaments, Imperial Shipment, Imperial this, Imperial that...), maybe with the exception of local commerces (the local fruit merchant or whatever traditionnal). While the State controls its economy through independant organisms like House of Records, etc, the Empire has a central governement with a single authority at its head (the Emperor and the Empire colossal administration), owning basically everything that is not owned by a Holder.
At least, that makes sense to me that way for the Empire.
For the Republic, it is quite shady. Not sure, but I think a lot of corporations are directly dependant of a Tribe in particular (Boundless Creations for example, if I am correct, is quite brutor, but I may be wrong). Not all though, and dependant only means it is controlled by natives of a tribe in particular, and that these natives will naturally be loyal to their tribe in question.
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Quafe does own several other companies (most notably Duvolle, Material Acquisition and Garoun Investment as well as a large part of Egonics), and might just be larger than the smaller megas. It also co-owns (possibly via Garoun Investment) CreoDron, Federal Freight and Impetus. Some of these corps are co-owned with Roden, so they may be allies.
For Amarr megacorps, you'd have the old "Imperial" corporations, which are megacorps and old monopolies on their own fields. (Notably Imperial Armaments, which is the "largest arms manufacturer" - implying that in the weapons field, it is larger than Kaalakiota.) For a more traditional "we do everything" megacorp, there's the Zoar-Ducia pair, which is about the size of smaller State megacorporations (as measured by amount of stations). And then, of course, Joint Harvesting is pretty huge.
For Minmatar, I can't see any clear megacorporate blocks (if you don't count the Angel Cartel). Interestingly, Kaalakiota has a stake in Native Freshfood (via Echelon Entertainment).
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Worlds certainly, but I didn't say worlds.
I said towns, cities, and stations.
Mea culpa. I thought 'on the frontier, towns, cities etc' included the frontier itself. I think it's worth noting, still, that for the Federation (for example) to approach the level of corporate control common in the State is an exception, while the State approaching the level of free choice for segments of it's population that other places possess is an exception.
On topic, I think Six Kin is probably the shadowy cabal that ends up approximating the power of a megacorp in the Republic. Lots of power players and string pullers that exercise financial influence outside the governmental sphere. Admittedly, I don't know much about them, but they came to mind.
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It should be remembered that at one time, the Caldari megacorporations were Federation corporations. The concept of a corporation is arguably Gallente. The first Caldari corporation, Isuuaya, is established more than 150 years after first contact between the Gallente & Caldari.
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See, now that's an interesting response and likely testament to Caldari cultural resistance that they took a Gallente concept, and instead of bending over and being consumed by Gallente culture, they used it to fight back, and to their magnificent advantage. It stated in the Caldari finance system article that the Caldari megas were being really problematic for everyone else, too. Would be interesting to see what a Federation would be like with Caldari economic dominance.
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Would be interesting to see what a Federation would be like with Caldari economic dominance.
:>
It'd probably look like a place the majority of my characters would feel very comfortable in.
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A problem with the in-game data (size, shares, share prices) is that it's not corresponding with PF data.
FedMart, for example, is the largest retail corporation in the world of EVE, and has operations everywhere. However, it is just "National" on corpdesc...same with Egonics, another transnational company, but is just national. Eifyr & Co, similarly, is just "local", despite being a big deal nationally.
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The information the old corp pages had was calculated from stations and things like that. FedMart has stations only in the Federation, therefore it is national. Eifyr has presence in two systems, and therefore, has only local presence in space. Of course, in the fiction this doesn't stop them being a big deal. More a quirk in the station distribution.
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Eifyr has presence in two systems, and therefore, has only local presence in space. Of course, in the fiction this doesn't stop them being a big deal.
Could be a Case that they have Offices all over the place but don't out right own more stations than they need.
Why Own 30 Stations when all you need is a satilite office?
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I would say that to a very real degree, the Megacorporations are the State. It's not that they have a particular interest in the State prospering, because that would mean that the State had some real existence beyond the corporations. With a couple of exceptions (most notably probably the CPD/Heth stuff), that isn't really the case. The Megas have an interest in [i[themselves[/i] prospering. the State is a medium for them to directly exert foreign policy control and offers a way for them to mediate among themselves.
More on-topic:
Quafe is certainly a megacorp in it's own right, Creodron, Roden, probably FedMart.
In terms of scale, any corporation that has even one spacestation probably qualifies as well beyond any modern conception of the kind of money and power a corporation can wield.
the difference with the State megacorps is they can wield political power much, much more directly. They don't need to lobby the State government - they each have their CEO on the CEP. They don't need to fight with the local or planetary government about regulations in places they own - they are the government (Unless they own land on a planet where another corporation owns land also. That could lead to the occasional court case.) Etc.
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I wish they did, I used to run a lot of missions for Eifyr. More agents would have been handy.
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Certain/likely Gallente megacorporations, referred to at some point as a megacorporation in PF somewhere (like FedMart intervention in Jin-Mei agriculture)...
- Quafe
- Impetus
- Roden Shipyards
- CreoDron
- Duvolle Laboratories
- FedMart
Less clear megas...
- Chemal Tech? Global scale, forefront of "EW technology a few years back"
- Poteque Pharmaceuticals? Perhaps one of those "transnational biotech corporation" types. Has leading share in cloning industry according to Cloning article.
- TransStellar Shipping? Largest shipping company in EVE, creates any scope for anything else?
- Combined Harvest? Large scale, only national scope. "Main agricultural company" in EVE is going to give it a significant size, but we know Amarrian agriculture (ie. Nurtura) is leading exporter.
- Astral Mining Inc.? Potential scope for other things if "best-run" mining company?
I think Federal megacorporations are less obvious to the layman because they don't have the trope of an ominous/monolithic singular name, but are more specific-sounding (shipyards, labs, etc.). That said, we know they are countless other companies in the empires that still hold a presence in space, are subsidiaries, or whatever, but aren't as "major". The in-game list is just the largest ones, so they might be "mega" to some degree or another.
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Less clear megas...
- Chemal Tech? Global scale, forefront of "EW technology a few years back"
- Poteque Pharmaceuticals? Perhaps one of those "transnational biotech corporation" types. Has leading share in cloning industry according to Cloning article.
- TransStellar Shipping? Largest shipping company in EVE, creates any scope for anything else?
- Combined Harvest? Large scale, only national scope. "Main agricultural company" in EVE is going to give it a significant size, but we know Amarrian agriculture (ie. Nurtura) is leading exporter.
- Astral Mining Inc.? Potential scope for other things if "best-run" mining company?
I think Federal megacorporations are less obvious to the layman because they don't have the trope of an ominous/monolithic singular name, but are more specific-sounding (shipyards, labs, etc.). That said, we know they are countless other companies in the empires that still hold a presence in space, are subsidiaries, or whatever, but aren't as "major". The in-game list is just the largest ones, so they might be "mega" to some degree or another.
There's also Aliastra. "A well-run retail company that has a broad inter-stellar scope, with operations in all the empires. Aliastra has not been able to compete domestically with FedMart, but has seen moderate success in other empires."
When I think about Aliastra vs. FedMart -- which I've had to on occasion, since one of my characters is the type who frequently baselines to buy things like cheap packaged t-shirts, socks and underwear (and why yes, I can explain the logic behind that) -- I often fall back on a "Limited Brands" vs. "Wal-Mart", though that might not be the best way to describe the relationship between the two.
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The empire has quite a few too, amongst them the largest agricultural corp and the largest weapons manifacturer.
The Carthum is a fairly new company that was formed with aid from the Caldari Lai Dai mega corporation, which owns a considerable share in the company. Carthum brought much needed vitality into the stale field of research and development and has been responsible for the respectable hi-tech gadgetry in many recent Amarrian space ships.
One of the few Amarr companies that has ventured outside its borders in search of business opportunities. Ducia Foundry is an energetic mining company that is willing to take chances in their search for rich minerals. The company has been known to send heavily armed mining expeditions deep into the outer regions, a risk that few respectable companies are willing to take.
Imperial Armaments is the largest weapon manufacturer in the world of EVE. The company manufactures a full range of weaponry, from small arms to battleships. Typically of the huge Amarr Empire, the company has always preferred quantity over quality, thus its equipment is not particularly interesting from a technological standpoint, but it is reliable and durable.
The Amarrians have whole planets dedicated to food production, the populous state has bitter experience from famine and wants to make sure it never experiences famine again on a large scale. Nurtura is one of the larger Amarrian agricultural companies, one that has been in the forefront of exporting basic foodstuff to the other empires.
Viziam is only a few years old, having been founded around the remnants of a hi-tech company that floundered. Viziam received support from the Carthum Conglomerate and has quickly risen to prominence in the industrial sector of the Amarr Empire.
An old company that dates back to the Moral Reform some 1500 years ago. Zoar was an influential Holder with strong ties to the royal court. He used his imperial connections to propel the company into the leading rank. After Zoar's death the company came under attack from rivals and political enemies and declined rapidly. But it managed to stay afloat and enjoys today a moderate success.
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Like I noted/hinted last page, Zoar owns Ducia, making the pair perhaps the largest Amarr conglomerate. Furthermore, http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Zoar_and_Sons_(NPC_corporation) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Zoar_and_Sons_(NPC_corporation)) has some additional information.
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It's interesting regarding Amarrian corporations and economy. Apparently, True Amarr despise merchant and trade work, and it's interesting it is referred to as such, and not "market capitalism", or whatever. Like I mentioned, perhaps corporations and the work of capitalism is downplayed in the Empire, as it is not a facet of their culture. Ie. Megacorporations in the Fed and State are extremely powerful, that they both control society to one degree or another. In Empire, the Houses hold the power instead. Stuff like that. If the True Amarr dislike merchant stuff, then perhaps corporations are heavily regulated? Can't let them get more powerful than Houses, of course, for political/cultural reasons.
Then there's Khanid, and the few Khanid Kingdom articles we've had, we see how capitalistic they are, with corporate fairs and so on.
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I haven't seen Astral Mining come up in this discussion yet.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Astral_Mining_Inc._%28NPC_corporation%29 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Astral_Mining_Inc._%28NPC_corporation%29)
They seem to be the Exxon-Mobile of Eve (i.e. whoops up on competitors in nearly every area).
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On Amarr: I think this was hinted on some Ammatar stuff at least, but economically powerful people can, de facto, have more power than many poor Holders. However, de jure, they will always be inferior. So, a very wealthy commoner might be very, very powerful. However, if he steps out of bounds suitable for a commoner, it doesn't really take much more than the most stepped-upon of Holders (possibly used as a puppet by more powerful Holders) to send him to the sulphur mines of Inis-Ilix I.
Edit to avoid double-post: And oh, Astral Mining is just dwarfed by Joint Harvesting. So, Amarr don't do "megacorps", huh?
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Anyway in the Amarr society, you probably have quite few free merchants. Most of the people work for one Holder or another, and most of the corporations are ruled by Holders. Or by the Empire itself (because they are national companies).
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I think in this instance, megacorporations are being referred to as those with significant political or social clout.
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Damn your thread, Seri. It's made me want to start up a Gallente-mega aligned egger corp.
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Damn your thread, Seri. It's made me want to start up a Gallente-mega aligned egger corp.
So, which would you choose and what field(s) would it be in?
There are plenty of options when it comes to doing so and certain aspects can be your emphasis.
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... joining the discussion late.
To address the OP, are there two sides to your question? The Caldari infodump is about their financial system. But it seems you are also wanting to discuss cultural differences as well. Well, they have to be intertwined so maybe two sides of the same coin? (pun intended)
There are lots of tidbits that infodump tells us about the Federation's financial system:
- "independent" banks... largest remnants of the legacy finance system that existed under the Federation [Gallentean banks are not under corporate umbrellas]
- ...exchange rate with Federation currency... [single currency system, subject to currency market, unlike Caldari fixed rates (a la Chinese)]
- Unlike in the Federation, there is no government-backed insurance for any sort of savings account in the State [Federation has social protection for its citizens, a very Western model]
- megacorporations depend on the independent banks for their well-being, especially Caldari Funds Unlimited, which acts as a “bank of last resort” in the State, similar (but not nearly as powerful or robust) as the Bank of Luminaire in the Federation [Luminaire, as an epitomized Gallentean bank is more powerful and robust, likely due to being free of megacorp control, as in the State, can be more diversified and invest in competiting interests]
- Unlike in the Federation, there is no government stipend to bolster savings for retirement [another socialistic cultural theme, government as protector for the people as a participant in the open financial market, not owner of it]
- While the Caldari economy has been characterized as an unregulated ultracapitalist melee by Federation critics [hinting that the Gallentean system is more regulated and more socialist, which makes sense from what we know of the Gallente cultural]
IMHO:
All of this hints at a market in which megacorps are just as free to proliferate as in the Caldari system, but with the understanding of how cultural differences affect the way Federation megas are run and controlled. Caldari = group oriented, success for the group at expense of individual (culture protects individuals to some extent), honour tied to service to the group. Gallente = individualistic, success for the individual over the group (regulations protect the group), honour tied to personal liberties and their preservation.
Gallente megas don't have physical regions of control like the Caldari (except maybe on stations), but I imagine they would have anti-collusion/monopoly regulations like most RL western societies (again based on governm't protection for the individual). Instead they would have market shares and exert control through marketing and persuasion. Gallenteans would have the consumer-based society type of the US with some of the European socialist leaning, contrasted agains the employee-citizen model of modern day Japanese culture.
TL;DR megas should exist everywhere (or at least as much in the Federation as in the State), but are simply run differently per cultural differences.
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http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=sep01-02
Very good in detailing how there are two lines of thought in Fed political economics. They have a mixture of both American laissez-faire, rugged individualism, as well as social democratic regulation. From what we have seen, this adds up. It also creates an interesting corporate culture in the Fed, who have to dodge and meander about rules and laws (like Lost Stars). It also has some stuff about Caldari/Gallente attitude to wealth acquirement.
It makes me think of the current trend we've had in the past 50 years, of small, family-owned businesses being weeded out by retail corporations. In the Fed/State, we have FedMart and Expert Distribution, the former being the larger of the two, who have an interest everywhere (even if FedMart doesn't have stations outside Fed). This is where I theorize that in the Republic/Empire, small businesses and merchants may be the norm, since there isn't any major retail NPC corporations of Minnie, Amarr flavour.
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Damn your thread, Seri. It's made me want to start up a Gallente-mega aligned egger corp.
So, which would you choose and what field(s) would it be in?
There are plenty of options when it comes to doing so and certain aspects can be your emphasis.
I can't decide, that's why I haven't done it.
Quafe is the one that jumps immediately to mind, because they're both deliciously shady and broad-based such that you could justify doing just about anything as a Quafe subsidiary.
FedMart or Aliastra would be fun for the Wal-Mart big-box ruthless competition vibe.
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I'm not sure if I'd put Quafe as arguably being the largest megacorporation in the cluster...it's going to have all sorts of subsidiaries that anything is possible, yeah...
The issue is that people naturally are attracted to something more ominious and monolithic-sounding (as I said) like Wiyrkomi or Ishukone, not Pepsi-Cola etc. :P Even if it's the same scope.
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I'm not sure if I'd put Quafe as arguably being the largest megacorporation in the cluster...it's going to have all sorts of subsidiaries that anything is possible, yeah...
The issue is that people naturally are attracted to something more ominious and monolithic-sounding (as I said) like Wiyrkomi or Ishukone, not Pepsi-Cola etc. :P Even if it's the same scope.
Anyone who feels that way hasn't read enough cyberpunk. It's always the ones with good PR that're the most horrifying.
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Without being able to put my finger on where it came from, I too have the sense that Quafe has more underworld connections than of most of the NPC corps. Probably another chron I forget reading, or the sleeper effect (http://sourcesofinsight.com/2010/10/04/the-sleeper-effect/).
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This is where I theorize that in the Republic/Empire, small businesses and merchants may be the norm, since there isn't any major retail NPC corporations of Minnie, Amarr flavour.
The Republic may have to deal with the Vherkie mafia. Who knows how many of their convenience stores and cantinas are owned by a single entity operating as individual familial cells?
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This is where I theorize that in the Republic/Empire, small businesses and merchants may be the norm, since there isn't any major retail NPC corporations of Minnie, Amarr flavour.
In the Empire, there's the issue that trade isn't seen as an honourable thing to do. True Amarr are engineer types, not business types. I'd assume that a whole lot of the planetary consumable trade is taken care by the Holders (and houses). And then some companies (Further Foodstuffs, Zoar) might take care of their supplies the whole chain from the farm to the dinner table, from the asteroid mine to the holovision shelf.