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[Arkady Sadik]

I refrained from posting the quote below on IGS because I feel it's somewhat unfair towards those who RP the Sansha storyline, but it's pretty much what my character currently thinks of this ICly.

Even FW has more effect on the game world than incursions. Not that I'm too unhappy about that - "external threats that unite former adversaries" tend to have a negative effect on the RP possibilities in the long run, so pushing the Sansha threat would in my opinion not be good for RP in EVE as a whole. But the way it is right now is quite sad.

The Nation came as a surprise and used a new and impressive technology, generating wormholes to strike wherever they like - that was unsettling. They abducted many of our people - that was horrifying. They created Sansha capsuleers - that was intimidating.

But then Kuvakei changed his strategy. He declared war on capsuleers and capsuleers alone. He did so without realizing that his petty army of maybe a dozen capsuleers is nothing compared to the free capsuleers that roam the cluster.

So, where are we today? The major anti-Nation coalitions are cooperating to keep Nation's incursions around until they start withdrawing, and then race each other to kill off the supercarrier. They could do that at any point, but they do it on the time of their choosing. If they wanted, most incursions would be defeated within a day.

I count 13 confirmed capsuleer-piloted supercarrier losses, and that's excluding the countless supercarrier losses without CONCORD confirmation. Or the even more countless carrier losses. They by now have lost more crew on their ships than they ever abducted from planets.

And what have they gained? They can jump out of the woodwork wherever they want, say "boo", and get to leave when on the us capsuleers' say-so.

I am afraid I can not see the reason to be particularly afraid of the Nation right now.

[Lyn Farel]

Mhh, afraid, not more than any other pirate faction I suppose. They still have plenty of regular NPCs that lurk all around and enslave or attack regular people. Much like other pirate factions attack regular people all around the cluster.

[Nmaro Makari]

I would just like to point out that the main "Incursions" are just the surface or the Sansha plotline.

There have been some pretty good developments, aside form day to day incursions.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I think the Sansha menace has a much greater impact on the empires than capsuleers. And yes, I'm aware that Nation set its target on capsuleers, but I'd make the assumption that when Nation occupies a system, not only is trade disrupted but planetary colonies are threatened, stations are in danger of being attacked, and local security forces (the stuff we can't see) probably get dispatched. So yes, I can see how this can be traumatic for people NOT capsuleers who have to live through this stuff. I say it might be the equivalent of living with air raid sirens constantly and having to worry if the boogeyman is going to come and get you.

[Kybernetes Moros]

I've found the whole Sansha event arc something of a double edged sword; yeah, at first it was a major curveball and it can't be argued that some enjoyable, surprising RP has come of it. On the other hand, that it was in essence both a trial run of live events and a way to launch Incursion in the form imagined by non-storyline folks has been a pain in the ass. The events that didn't go quite as they 'should' have for whatever reason and the lack of a way to meaningfully support the Nation mechanically are probably good examples. Don't get me wrong -- Dropbear and Headfirst have done great so far and don't seem to be changing that; just an unfortunate byproduct of what was trying to be done that detracts from it.

That being said, Kyber(c) -- and myself as a player as a result, here -- sat down one day and took the various technological advancements that the Nation has flaunted (wormholes are the most obvious example; see also things like advanced manipulation of infomorphs) to their logical ends. He found the Nation's tactics making a lot more sense when the fields in which it has an upper hand are considered outside the context of what capsuleers see directly; whether this was foreseen by the people designing the events or just a by-product, who knows, but it can be made to make much more sense than it does from a purely OOC "killboards and live events" standpoint.

In the interest of not making myself sound like a faction fanboy -- not the intent, honest -- and because I'm too tired to write anything really meaty ATM, though, I'll not give any full reasoning. Kyber(c) would be pretty open about the vast majority of it if asked IC, though. vOv

[Ghost Hunter]

I'm not entirely certain what I should write a post directed to in this topic.

Do you want commentary on your IC post OOCly, Arkady?

[Arkady Sadik]

I'm not entirely certain what I should write a post directed to in this topic.

Do you want commentary on your IC post OOCly, Arkady?

I do not know what I want, so your point there is quite right :-).

This thread happened because I wrote that IC post for IGS, but before I posted it, I felt it would be bad from me. There are people who are playing the Sansha story arc (and enjoying it), and such a post felt awfully much like "lol CCP's game mechanics suck for your RP." So I didn't post it.

Which did frustrate me. Basically, the "IC logical conclusion" from all that actually has happened in-game is (for me) "Sansha is a minor issue." The storyline that has been played seems to indicate that "Sansha is a major issue." And it feels to me that I'm being asked to ignore "what happens in the game" and RP based on something I make up on my own with no backing in the game.

Which, in turn, means the Sansha RP is pretty much un-fun to me.

I guess this thread was just me going "MEH! :-("

[Kybernetes Moros]

If the reasonable conclusion for Arkady(c) to draw is that they're a non-issue, couldn't he just then extend that to that people making a fuss over them on either side of the fence are getting worked up over nothing?

I'm not entirely sure of the issue, I'll admit.

[Arkady Sadik]

If the reasonable conclusion for Arkady(c) to draw is that they're a non-issue, couldn't he just then extend that to that people making a fuss over them on either side of the fence are getting worked up over nothing?

That's pretty much my IC stance now, yes. :-)

(Some of them are difficult to ignore, they actively address me, but when they do, it's their own fault for getting a reply.)

I'm not entirely sure of the issue, I'll admit.

I'm not sure I'd call it an "issue" as such. There's a (possibly cool) RP storyline that I feel I can't really participate in because I feel that the non-game-based RP in it does not really fit to the in-game activities. "Meh, that looks fun, but isn't for me" - not really an issue, more an expression of disappointment.

I suck at describing this. :-D

[Kybernetes Moros]

Aha; that makes more sense. I've noticed that most characters run into that awkward inability to reall get involved with a storyline at some stage, though; hardly exclusive to the Sansha stuff (though with that being something pushed as a cluster-wide thing, it does happen perhaps more for it).

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Arkady, I am curious as to why you feel that plots based around "external threats that unite former adversaries" are bad. One thing that I regret is that my interaction with Imperial, Caldari and some pirate faction supporters is very limited based on current relations between the NPC groups they are affiliated with.

Having something force us to work together, even in a limited way, increases the scope for interaction. So how can that be bad.

[Ghost Hunter]

I'm not entirely certain what I should write a post directed to in this topic.

Do you want commentary on your IC post OOCly, Arkady?

I do not know what I want, so your point there is quite right :-).

This thread happened because I wrote that IC post for IGS, but before I posted it, I felt it would be bad from me. There are people who are playing the Sansha story arc (and enjoying it), and such a post felt awfully much like "lol CCP's game mechanics suck for your RP." So I didn't post it.

Which did frustrate me. Basically, the "IC logical conclusion" from all that actually has happened in-game is (for me) "Sansha is a minor issue." The storyline that has been played seems to indicate that "Sansha is a major issue." And it feels to me that I'm being asked to ignore "what happens in the game" and RP based on something I make up on my own with no backing in the game.

Which, in turn, means the Sansha RP is pretty much un-fun to me.

I guess this thread was just me going "MEH! :-("

ayup

I believe your issue is that the storyline says the Sansha are a big issue, when in the game the Sansha provide a 1billion ISK/day pick-up-group for free in highsec with near zero penalties to the affected constellation. What's said, versus what is seen/done. Would I be right?

[Julianus Soter]

I think we should remember where the money is coming from here. It's coming from CONCORD, which is paid via taxes on the various Empires.

In effect, the Empires are only able to stave off the Sansha onslaught through being able to pay off concord, who in turn pays off us.. That's why the bounty rates in the affected systems are lowered, it's to help pay for the Incursion bounties that are handed out.

Indeed, CONCORD was largely created for this purpose, to deal with threats against astropolitical peace. The Sansha incursions are certainly the most significant threat at this point in time, the Empire wars being defused and bled dry through the pressure-valve border wars by the Capsuleer militias. It only makes sense that the large portion of their bribe money to capsuleers would keep flowing on a daily basis to that purpose. Otherwise, the Sansha would steamroll the entire area.

Which makes the next point even more significant. If the Sansha were somehow able to significantly debilitate the economic flow of materials or goods, then the tax revenues funding the Capsuleer resistance would dissipate, thereby depleting their warfleets and allowing Sansha the upperhand.

This is the most logical strategic option for Kuvakei to employ at this point in the war.

As you can see, there is a significant amount of strategic and tactical depth to the 'threat', and it's not simply the NPC wars going on, but the larger storyline and balance of power between the Rogue Factions and the Empires. All of it is in the balance, and hopefully CCP will play on this in the future.

[Arkady Sadik]

I believe your issue is that the storyline says the Sansha are a big issue, when in the game the Sansha provide a 1billion ISK/day pick-up-group for free in highsec with near zero penalties to the affected constellation. What's said, versus what is seen/done. Would I be right?

Roughly, yes. My biggest "wtf" actually is that the big incursion groups actively keep the incursions around until they're "withdrawing" and then quickly finish them off. That gives the whole Sansha threat the feeling of a "minor nuiscance" with which you play until you get tired of it, then simply brush it off.

Aha; that makes more sense. I've noticed that most characters run into that awkward inability to reall get involved with a storyline at some stage, though; hardly exclusive to the Sansha stuff (though with that being something pushed as a cluster-wide thing, it does happen perhaps more for it).

Oh, yes. And just to reiterate, this is primarily because of my personal preference of what I RP as. Others have different preferences.

I had a similar problem with FW ("ok, we are now AT WAR! HA HAR! ... oh, your stations can stay here, and actually, not much changes, you know") - I was able to find some kind of ICerization that works for me, but it's still awkward.

Arkady, I am curious as to why you feel that plots based around "external threats that unite former adversaries" are bad. One thing that I regret is that my interaction with Imperial, Caldari and some pirate faction supporters is very limited based on current relations between the NPC groups they are affiliated with.

Having something force us to work together, even in a limited way, increases the scope for interaction. So how can that be bad.

RP stories that are interesting to me at least is driven by conflict. There is only a very small amount of interaction you can get out of "I like you, you like me." External threats provide the big superhammer to kill any kind of conflict: "How can you think of X when we have to deal with Y?!" Which means that a big enough external threat (e.g. how Sansha is apparently treated) results, after a bit of initial awkwardness, in a situation where you have very  little to RP about outside of what the external threat generates - and I would not, in general, rely on CCP to generate all the RP we can get.

Compare this to FW (there was a discussion about that in another thread). FW removed, among other things, the conflict of "pro-peace, pro-Republic vs. pro-war, anti-Republic" Minmatar loyalists. You'd think that "the war broke out!" would create more RP, but the only RP it generates is the RP CCP creates of it - whereas the pro-peace/pro-war conflict generated RP all by itself.

This is obviously not an on/off switch, but a gradual scale. My point being, the stronger the "unifying external threats" are, the fewer was of possible conflict you have, the less RP generators you have.

[Ghost Hunter]

I believe your issue is that the storyline says the Sansha are a big issue, when in the game the Sansha provide a 1billion ISK/day pick-up-group for free in highsec with near zero penalties to the affected constellation. What's said, versus what is seen/done. Would I be right?

Roughly, yes. My biggest "wtf" actually is that the big incursion groups actively keep the incursions around until they're "withdrawing" and then quickly finish them off. That gives the whole Sansha threat the feeling of a "minor nuiscance" with which you play until you get tired of it, then simply brush it off.

ayup, pretty much.

I didn't learn about that particular tactic until a month or two after launch. It's hilarious because the Sansha Incursions achieve whatever the fuck they're doing over the days their vat-grown fleets are killed, and when they're done the Capsuleers finally punt them out. Honestly if I wasn't banking on Kuvakei pulling a xanatos gambit on that I'd be raging a lot more about the system.

While over all it may provide a corridor for a 'ahha, your avarice has proven your undoing' type of story, I doubt it makes a strong presence in the mean time. By your sentiments and others like it I have seen, most players consider the incursions a joke as far as a 'threat' is concerned. Or it's trivialized down from the galactic level threat it's generally presented as.

I have mixed feelings on the entire thing because of the potential for a xanatos ass pull. In terms of story, yes the Sansha may pull even further ahead. In terms of presentation, if the players feel the big bad is a big joke then did your story fail? I still can't decide on that.