Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: John Revenent on 24 May 2011, 03:39
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http://www.arcadianewsnetwork.net/2011/05/23/major-ired-leak-comes-to-light/
Funny stuff, have fun people. Btw I would like it if OOC shit stayed OOC (To not derail RP, if this is impossible well meh. its all I ask.). Take what IC material you can out of it all you want. (Such as John talking to Nikita, trying to make a contract for a RP event with LDIS that fell through for a Intaki mock conflict.)
One of the spies has been kicked. Props to Ben/Anshar/everyone else involved. I am interested to see the fallout on my IC character assassination this time.
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I'm sorry to see the relatively poor presentation of the material John. By which I mean there is ooc material mixed in with ic material and it seems to be another example of the blurring of ic/ooc lines in RP wars that weakens the general suspension of disbelief and fun.
I do wish the spies and infiltrators on this occasion had taken the time to choose between ic/ooc leaks rather than making use of a whole "and the kitchen sink" approach including voice coms information, killboard posting passwords and other obviously ooc resources.
With a little more effort (and class) its possible to make even infiltration and spying a valid RP approach but I do think this example is a bad one - its just a shotgun approach to smearing a Roleplay alliance by posting all their ic/ooc/misc details on the IGS and I'm not that impressed.
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Dealt with here by John with class, as always.
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I could state that I am 'unimpressed' by this act, but that would be an understatement.
IC character assassination can be fun, if done right, but this is a thinly-veiled-as-RP, fully blown ooc smear job alà the BoB vs ASCN wars and the character assassinations of CYVOK and John McCreedy. It was utterly tasteless then, it's not any better now.
The shaite attempt to run this off as IC is absurd. IMHO this should be contained asap and the one's hosting the accessable materials should take it down or put it off-limits ot the public instantly, then offer to John and the I-RED alliance the sincere appology they deserve.
And we are all supposed ot be adult, rational players here. Hah.
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I could state that I am 'unimpressed' by this act, but that would be an understatement.
Bare in mind I was trying hard to stay within Backstage rules :)
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I just checked, and published everything I received. I have no intention of using the information published to my own ends. I'm not going to blur the OOC/IC line, and I don't think you really need to ask people not to. If people mix the two up in arguments/fights/whatever because of this, you should probably just rise above it and ignore them or something.
And we are all supposed ot be adult, rational players here. Hah.
So there shouldn't really be an issue then, should there?
Oh, and I think you may have kicked the wrong person, given the rather upset EVEmail I received early this morning.
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I just checked, and published everything I received. I have no intention of using the information published to my own ends. I'm not going to blur the OOC/IC line, and I don't think you really need to ask people not to.
I think providing a link on IGS to an info dump where you definitively mix ic and ooc evemails/admin details up to and including vent information and killboard posting killboards is the very definition of "blurring" the OOC/IC line.
In my opinion this is a bit poor. And I think you should consider the road where this leads.
Last year SF suffered an attack of this kind where an infilitrator gave out our voice details and killboard admistration data. We had a couple of crazy days with people using this stuff to impersonate our members and directors and spamming the resources to damage our organizational integrity. We considered it beyond the pale for respectful RP interaction.
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There is a blanket ban on AI IGS posting at the moment, the 'announcement' or whatever it was, wasn't mine, and wasn't sanctioned by me. There was no intention to announce this on the IGS for the OOC/IC Blurring reasons mentioned.
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Oh, and I think you may have kicked the wrong person, given the rather upset EVEmail I received early this morning.
Really?? I just kicked them what 20 min before DT? They have not been on since... hmm.
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Oh, and I think you may have kicked the wrong person, given the rather upset EVEmail I received early this morning.
Well, I received an upset EVEMail. EVEGate?
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Last year SF suffered an attack of this kind where an infilitrator gave out our voice details and killboard admistration data. We had a couple of crazy days with people using this stuff to impersonate our members and directors and spamming the resources to damage our organizational integrity. We considered it beyond the pale for respectful RP interaction.
A lot of RP organisations (including my own) have a policy against using information that we consider to be OOC (forum logins, Vent passwords) or that has been gained by what we consider to be OOC means (infiltration alts). I understand that for a lot of people, including RPers, this is part of the metagaming fun of EVE, but for us it's a lot less fun than using our characters to ICly gain trust and information.
Of course, we're aware this doesn't give us immunity from others using the same means against us, both RPers and non-RPers, and take the usual precautions.
I'm aware that ICly I should probably read that material, filter out the OOC, so Cia(c) can be informed, but my overwhelming feeling of 'meh' prevents me.
As Mammal said, kudos for handling it with class.
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Right, well my point is in place and thats all I need. (First person she evemails is Milo, and doesn't respond to my mail first heh)
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Haven't really read through the material in question, but what makes voice comms and killboards OoC?
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Haven't really read through the material in question, but what makes voice comms and killboards OoC?
Preference and personal/organizational standards.
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I dont want a drama threadnaught please, just making sure people do not mix up my OOC personality with my IC one. Thats all.
The crap about my Real Life being in the public yet again is shitty yes but I will have to deal with it.. It is a game, I deal with it like a game as should everyone else. Though I would ask that ANN be decent as I know you all are human beings... for a removal of my Real Life happenings from the data dump please, the bankrupt Net Cafe, me going to farm life ect.
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I have to say that it is really indecent the amount of OOC targeting of John of late. People in game and on IGS using his RL name. It is poor form.
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Ah, that shite is definitely OoC. No need to start smearing personal real life info all over IC venues.
Killboards and voice comms I'll give the benefit of the doubt and consider IC.
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Though I would ask that ANN be decent as I know you all are human beings... for a removal of my Real Life happenings from the data dump please, the bankrupt Net Cafe, me going to farm life ect.
If you could pin down the specific bits and pieces in logs you'd like removed regarding that and list them in a PM. (and only the RL stuff, because I have no intention of taking this entire thing down) I'll redact them. There were a few entries I didn't publish because they discussed member RL problems/whatever in detail. I'd like to extend this to the entire leak, so if you could help me there, it'd be greatly appreciated.
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Haven't really read through the material in question, but what makes voice comms and killboards OoC?
Preference and personal/organizational standards.
As I said, our policy is based on what's fun for us, and we appreciate that what's fun for us might not be for other people, and vice versa.
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Haven't really read through the material in question, but what makes voice comms and killboards OoC?
Preference and personal/organizational standards.
As I said, our policy is based on what's fun for us, and we appreciate that what's fun for us might not be for other people, and vice versa.
Agreed certainly. Standards can vary of course and are far from absolute.
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Though I would ask that ANN be decent as I know you all are human beings... for a removal of my Real Life happenings from the data dump please, the bankrupt Net Cafe, me going to farm life ect.
If you could pin down the specific bits and pieces in logs you'd like removed regarding that and list them in a PM. (and only the RL stuff, because I have no intention of taking this entire thing down) I'll redact them. There were a few entries I didn't publish because they discussed member RL problems/whatever in detail. I'd like to extend this to the entire leak, so if you could help me there, it'd be greatly appreciated.
There are several still available not only in regards to myself but personal information in Fleet/Alliance Logs.. such as "the Net Cafe (Where I work) close its doors for good."
You state you simply edit all the logs and mails to make sure they are suitable to your standards, you should remove all details pertaining information on other people's RL activities before making such a public display with a tiny bit more detail. I do not see how it is my job to clean up what is on your site. If you refuse to do it so be it.. but do not expect people to understand why you are doing this, or give you brownie points.
I do not care less about the rest of it. People who know how to RP will understand what is IC and what is not.
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I have to say that it is really indecent the amount of OOC targeting of John of late. People in game and on IGS using his RL name. It is poor form.
Bad form indeed.
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Personally speaking? This sucks. I'm sorry John. If it was only IC stuff, then I think I would have found it acceptable, if a bit nasty. Throwing in all the OOC stuff to me is pretty much the same as cheating and more than a little mean.
Can you do me a favor when you get the chance? Can you privately send the names/alts of the inflitrators to either me or Silas? Since they also showed a willingness to transmit stuff sensitive to V.I. (old TS info) I think we need to make sure the other corps in V.I. know who to look out for.
IC backstabbing, trechery, bastardy? Totally acceptable. When a player does it OOC, I think we the players (within the rules) should take steps to ostracize him or her from our company.
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IC/OOC issues and the raw data-dump delivery aside (which I do agree as being a problem here, esp the RL info; ANN = wikileaks?), I didn't see a single thing in the "leak" that was of significant consequence from whichever perspective you looked. Oh, man, I-RED internal EVEmails are full of... exactly what you'd expect from an alliance's internal EVEmails... :| Wait, they bought/sold boosters! Hold on, they've already said that on IGS. :ugh: At war with W-BR? Nowai! Oh, right... :s
So, being able to form effectively zero new and consequential IC opinions on the matter, my only reaction was to think: "I wish John had more hardcore RPers in RDC/I-RED to play with."
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Personally speaking? This sucks. I'm sorry John. If it was only IC stuff, then I think I would have found it acceptable, if a bit nasty. Throwing in all the OOC stuff to me is pretty much the same as cheating and more than a little mean.
Can you do me a favor when you get the chance? Can you privately send the names/alts of the inflitrators to either me or Silas? Since they also showed a willingness to transmit stuff sensitive to V.I. (old TS info) I think we need to make sure the other corps in V.I. know who to look out for.
IC backstabbing, trechery, bastardy? Totally acceptable. When a player does it OOC, I think we the players (within the rules) should take steps to ostracize him or her from our company.
I will send a list after I get some sleep.. 6:30 AM. Anyone else who needs the information please EvEmail me.
No need to feel sorry guys, some people just play the game differently then others. Either that or I really pissed someone off OOCly, which happens because I am :evil: (rawrzevilzcake)
Oh yes and I-RED is in ruins I will be needing to find a new home asap! I kid, we had a good laugh if nothing else.
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Note to self:
When dumping people's dirty laundry into public, keep the IC bits IC, and the OOC bits OOC.
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Well, it would appear, Jade, that their internal communications frequently blend IC and OOC discussion, to a level where it is indeed impossible to sort out which is which. So, perhaps the experience you had with Revenent was due to the fact he was pursuing a more warm relationship with your organization at the time.
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Well, it would appear, Jade, that their internal communications frequently blend IC and OOC discussion, to a level where it is indeed impossible to sort out which is which. So, perhaps the experience you had with Revenent was due to the fact he was pursuing a more warm relationship with your organization at the time.
Quite the contrary actually. This was during the direct fallout from last years Memorial Event where SF attended to assassinate the I-RED executor and attracted a veritable torrent of condemnation from various members of the ooc community and ignited massive flame threads on IGS. Amongst all the flames and shocking ic/ooc denunciations - John Revenent communicated to us a quiet dignity and simple message that he'd enjoyed the roleplay at the event and thanked us for making it memorable.
That is quality.
As for current relations what I will say is that since both SF and I-RED appear to be organizations capable of responding to dynamic changes through in-character roleplay with integrity unblemished by any kind of OOC feud or narkiness its been a pleasant experience exploring new possibilities and associations in space.
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You leave my main point unanswered, namely, that your observation is, indeed, the exception to the rule.
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You leave my main point unanswered, namely, that your observation is, indeed, the exception to the rule.
In my opinion you are mistaken.
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I counter your opinion with the information of the leaks displayed in the news article of the OP.
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*shrugs*
Were an infiltrator to post Star Fraction alliance mails up on IGS currently there would be a mix of in and out of character information that would be meaningless to parse from a purely in-character perspective. That is unless you felt you could interpret the whole of our alliance going routinely into another reality called "SISI" to practise for the alliance tournament as some kind of wormhole physics experiment from our tower in Pelille.
Thus my opinion is your observation is hardly pertinent to the case in point. Most alliances mix ooc and ic material in their internal posting in some form. Claiming that because I-RED also do this somehow invalidates their good reputation as solid roleplayers who can separate IC and OOC conflict and maintain a decent relationship with other players even while their characters are involved in fighting and IGS feuding - well, it doesn't hold water for me.
Your mileage may vary. But I think given recent events its wise not to throw stones in glass houses.
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I am a bit upset about people's reaction to this whole thing, mainly because my name shows up in the log a lot and as a result i'm apparantly the 'spy' A lot of the OOC stuff I saw about this when it first showed up was very negative.
Sure it's a leak, but as it doesn't really contain anything very incriminating. Why not just make the most of it and use it as an opportunity to do more RP?
Also sorry for the angry mail this morning Milo. I jumped to conclusions somewhat. At the end of the day it is just a game, and i'm sure I can find another good corp to fly with.
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Pretty much everything can be considered IC from where I'm standing. Diplomacy, Voice Comms, and yes... even SiSi. (Combat Simulator, voila. SiSi is IC.) Vent/TS is just a voice comms protocol and forums and killboards are exactly that. Galnet resources for the corporation/alliance in question.
There's almost nothing you can't turn IC if you can be arsed.
That's the beauty of Eve.
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Pretty much everything can be considered IC from where I'm standing. Diplomacy, Voice Comms ...
Quick (slightly frivolous) question. But how would you handle somebody making a recording of your voice as Mizhara during a fleet op then posting it on IGS as "proof" that your character was a transvestite and not a real female?
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Voice masking for privacy reasons. Personally, I mostly go OoC on voice chat if there's actual chatter going on, since I like the /emotes you can use to lend a bit of depth to IC interaction in-game but there's a lot of IC chatter on voice comms going on too. If someone records it and tries to score cheap ass points, it can be refuted just as easily.
Edit: Besides, it'd be a nice lead in to notes about Miz having bigger balls than the one posting it, so it could actually be fun.
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If we applied the same standard, then most certainly all of the 'bars' that exist in the roleplaying community would be shown as frauds, actually being nothing more than overly elaborate chatrooms where people pretend to be drinking intoxicating beverages and snorting drugs.
The medium is a matter of artistic interpretation in roleplay. The content is never up for dispute.
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Okay, I'll add my two cents.
First off, I hit the report post button on the IGS and gave this reasoning in the submit box :
This is not even a remotely roleplay based thread, and is shocking.
Someone is obviously making an ooc attempt to smear I-RED and has included all their OOC details, interaction and diplomacy within an IC post.
You can see the RP community's feeling on this here : http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2296.0
IMO the link should be taken down and the thread locked with reasoning.
Now, I'm all for this kind of thing happening completely in character.
For instance if a Provist Corporation is secretly dealing with a Gallente Loyalist outfit and people are looking to expose them, or a Matari Loyalist Corporation happens to be buying and selling slaves, to give basic examples.
What happened here had very little to do with IC interaction, and in all honesty is a disgrace.
A huge swathe of OOC information has been posted, that has NOTHING to do with I-RED's IC stance and their IC opinion of things.
I agree with people who've said it's nothing more than a weak and poor attempt at a smear campaign given the inclusion of all the OOC information.
Any roleplayer in the right mind who wanted to make an IC release of I-RED's personal data would have had the common decency to sit down and sift through it all to pick out what was relevant IC and what was blatently IC information.
Sorry, but this is well out of order in my opinion and has nothing to do with roleplay.
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[mod]Tried to remove unconstructive posts. Further flaming and attacks will lead to additional administrative action. Play nice, folks.[/mod]
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Okay, I'll add my two cents.
First off, I hit the report post button on the IGS and gave this reasoning in the submit box :
This is not even a remotely roleplay based thread, and is shocking.
Someone is obviously making an ooc attempt to smear I-RED and has included all their OOC details, interaction and diplomacy within an IC post.
You can see the RP community's feeling on this here : http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2296.0
IMO the link should be taken down and the thread locked with reasoning.
Now, I'm all for this kind of thing happening completely in character.
For instance if a Provist Corporation is secretly dealing with a Gallente Loyalist outfit and people are looking to expose them, or a Matari Loyalist Corporation happens to be buying and selling slaves, to give basic examples.
What happened here had very little to do with IC interaction, and in all honesty is a disgrace.
A huge swathe of OOC information has been posted, that has NOTHING to do with I-RED's IC stance and their IC opinion of things.
I agree with people who've said it's nothing more than a weak and poor attempt at a smear campaign given the inclusion of all the OOC information.
Any roleplayer in the right mind who wanted to make an IC release of I-RED's personal data would have had the common decency to sit down and sift through it all to pick out what was relevant IC and what was blatently IC information.
Sorry, but this is well out of order in my opinion and has nothing to do with roleplay.
Ironically your report is almost identical to the one I submitted last night.
Funny old world isn't it :)
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I think I'll try to put this into perspective. What's the difference between the last time someone dealt with IC ramifications for their OOC behavior:
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1376236/page/1#16
And this time?
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Sorry Senn but that thread
It wasn't very good.
Re the difference though. I guess the target was SF (kinda) so was considered valid for smearing. There used to be a convention in certain sections of the RP community that because SF was "unpopular" that "anything goes" and there were no restrictions to dubious behaviour. I think that has changed a bit in recent years.
But the principle is broadly the same. OOC chat logs crowbarred into IC propaganda on IGS are always bad and shouldn't really be condoned by anyone.
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There's one difference here. That bit was about actual in-game stuff planned and executed, and thus IC. This... seems mostly to be just about OoC Real Life stuff and then a huge dump of useless shite that has no real 'revelatory' effect at all. Now, the useless shite seems to be perfectly valid IC leaks, and the rest should have been sifted out a bit.
But get off ANNs back. Why should ANN be the filter here? If it's just something that is to be filtered, do it your freakin' self. It's not rocket surgery to disregard statements about internet cafes and real life info when reading through this dump. Get off that particular high horse and apply the same damn standards to yourself that you are now lumping onto ANN and it's people.
We do it all the time in EM, as an immersionist alliance that deals with non-RPers. Logs sometimes gets posted and there's a small warning that some things are OoC chatter. Everyone applies a little filter in what they mentally omit or transform into something that's IC equivalent.
"So yeah, I was afk for ten minutes." turns to "I was off comms for ten minutes." or whatever other IC equivalent is around.
Almost everything can be made IC this way, and those few things that aren't can easily be omitted from the discussion that follows.
Leave ANN alone and just RP the rest out. It's not that hard.
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Leave ANN alone and just RP the rest out. It's not that hard.
There's just nothing to RP about it besides to say "so wut" and maybe drop a comment about publishing choices in the "independent press". :s From my perspective, there is nothing nefarious, embarrassing, or even particularly private (from the IC side) in the "leak" at all.
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Exactly. So this is a fuckton of hubbub about almost nothing at all.
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I think the public drubbing they are receiving on the IGS at the moment is an entirely appropriate way of "rp'ing this out" 8)
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Okay, I'll add my two cents.
First off, I hit the report post button on the IGS and gave this reasoning in the submit box :
This is not even a remotely roleplay based thread, and is shocking.
Someone is obviously making an ooc attempt to smear I-RED and has included all their OOC details, interaction and diplomacy within an IC post.
You can see the RP community's feeling on this here : http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2296.0
IMO the link should be taken down and the thread locked with reasoning.
Now, I'm all for this kind of thing happening completely in character.
For instance if a Provist Corporation is secretly dealing with a Gallente Loyalist outfit and people are looking to expose them, or a Matari Loyalist Corporation happens to be buying and selling slaves, to give basic examples.
What happened here had very little to do with IC interaction, and in all honesty is a disgrace.
A huge swathe of OOC information has been posted, that has NOTHING to do with I-RED's IC stance and their IC opinion of things.
I agree with people who've said it's nothing more than a weak and poor attempt at a smear campaign given the inclusion of all the OOC information.
Any roleplayer in the right mind who wanted to make an IC release of I-RED's personal data would have had the common decency to sit down and sift through it all to pick out what was relevant IC and what was blatently IC information.
Sorry, but this is well out of order in my opinion and has nothing to do with roleplay.
Ironically your report is almost identical to the one I submitted last night.
Funny old world isn't it :)
How Bizarre! :P
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I think it wouldn't have hurt ANN at all to parse out the irrelevant data, and probably would have saved them a lot of 'questions of integrity' in the end. Posting all that and then wiping your hands of it is dubious at best. Of course, what matters is as John said, how you handle it in-character, but it certainly raises some red flags from me as a player. For what that's worth, lol. :P
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I think the public drubbing they are receiving on the IGS at the moment is an entirely appropriate way of "rp'ing this out" 8)
I guess so. All I can do IC is shrug and wonder at the strange unity of the chorus shouting down the leakers and the thinly (if at all) veiled OOC responses (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1515792&page=1#4) by I-RED directors (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1515792&page=1#12). Brings me back to my initial summation that I think John deserves more hardcore RPers in his ranks. Also, I wonder if an Anshar Inc/ANN rep will actually make an IC response on IGS.
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I think the public drubbing they are receiving on the IGS at the moment is an entirely appropriate way of "rp'ing this out" 8)
I guess so. All I can do IC is shrug and wonder at the strange unity of the chorus shouting down the leakers and the thinly (if at all) veiled OOC responses (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1515792&page=1#4) by I-RED directors (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1515792&page=1#12). Brings me back to my initial summation that I think John deserves more hardcore RPers in his ranks. Also, I wonder if an Anshar Inc/ANN rep will actually make an IC response on IGS.
Well the BEST solution that I'd suggest would be for that thread to be nuked.
For Anshar to properly vet the information and present a decent IC summary of what was there and re-format to ensure it had no extraeous ooc guff mixed in.
ie doing a proper IC stitch-up job rather than just chucking a load of mingled copy/paste info on the net and putting a vaguely ic stamp on it.
And basically start over.
But equally, it could be argued that the damage is already done and they fluffed this story badly and best bet might be to shrug and move on and wait for people to forget about it.
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There's one difference here. That bit was about actual in-game stuff planned and executed, and thus IC. This... seems mostly to be just about OoC Real Life stuff and then a huge dump of useless shite that has no real 'revelatory' effect at all. Now, the useless shite seems to be perfectly valid IC leaks, and the rest should have been sifted out a bit.
But get off ANNs back. Why should ANN be the filter here? If it's just something that is to be filtered, do it your freakin' self. It's not rocket surgery to disregard statements about internet cafes and real life info when reading through this dump. Get off that particular high horse and apply the same damn standards to yourself that you are now lumping onto ANN and it's people.
We do it all the time in EM, as an immersionist alliance that deals with non-RPers. Logs sometimes gets posted and there's a small warning that some things are OoC chatter. Everyone applies a little filter in what they mentally omit or transform into something that's IC equivalent.
"So yeah, I was afk for ten minutes." turns to "I was off comms for ten minutes." or whatever other IC equivalent is around.
Almost everything can be made IC this way, and those few things that aren't can easily be omitted from the discussion that follows.
Leave ANN alone and just RP the rest out. It's not that hard.
As a IC News Agency it is not my job to do it , it is their job to sift through it. Why should I have to sit down as another person and have to filter it myself when a supposid news agency released it. Piss poor job in that case!
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I think the public drubbing they are receiving on the IGS at the moment is an entirely appropriate way of "rp'ing this out" 8)
I guess so. All I can do IC is shrug and wonder at the strange unity of the chorus shouting down the leakers and the thinly (if at all) veiled OOC responses (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1515792&page=1#4) by I-RED directors (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1515792&page=1#12). Brings me back to my initial summation that I think John deserves more hardcore RPers in his ranks. Also, I wonder if an Anshar Inc/ANN rep will actually make an IC response on IGS.
Well the BEST solution that I'd suggest would be for that thread to be nuked.
For Anshar to properly vet the information and present a decent IC summary of what was there and re-format to ensure it had no extraeous ooc guff mixed in.
ie doing a proper IC stitch-up job rather than just chucking a load of mingled copy/paste info on the net and putting a vaguely ic stamp on it.
And basically start over.
But equally, it could be argued that the damage is already done and they fluffed this story badly and best bet might be to shrug and move on and wait for people to forget about it.
Stop making sense god damn you. IT'S NOT RIGHT.
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Nuke the thread (from orbit).
It's the only way to be sure.
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There's one difference here. That bit was about actual in-game stuff planned and executed, and thus IC. This... seems mostly to be just about OoC Real Life stuff and then a huge dump of useless shite that has no real 'revelatory' effect at all. Now, the useless shite seems to be perfectly valid IC leaks, and the rest should have been sifted out a bit.
But get off ANNs back. Why should ANN be the filter here? If it's just something that is to be filtered, do it your freakin' self. It's not rocket surgery to disregard statements about internet cafes and real life info when reading through this dump. Get off that particular high horse and apply the same damn standards to yourself that you are now lumping onto ANN and it's people.
We do it all the time in EM, as an immersionist alliance that deals with non-RPers. Logs sometimes gets posted and there's a small warning that some things are OoC chatter. Everyone applies a little filter in what they mentally omit or transform into something that's IC equivalent.
"So yeah, I was afk for ten minutes." turns to "I was off comms for ten minutes." or whatever other IC equivalent is around.
Almost everything can be made IC this way, and those few things that aren't can easily be omitted from the discussion that follows.
Leave ANN alone and just RP the rest out. It's not that hard.
As a IC News Agency it is not my job to do it , it is their job to sift through it. Why should I have to sit down as another person and have to filter it myself when a supposid news agency released it. Piss poor job in that case!
Is a damn good point. Imagine if the BBC just put out a random collection of junk notes and unattributed videos and with the disclaimer ... "sort out the news yourself guys!"
Not really good enough.
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John, I was never actually was involved with this, when you claim in the first post "Props to Ben/Anshar/everyone else involved."
Actually, I biomassed Ben. 8)
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Faulty comparison, I believe. ANN didn't release the source material as a news article. They just made a news article about an infiltration and provided the full dump, Wikileaks style. I don't see a problem with this.
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That doesn't negate them from the responsibility of what they post.
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That doesn't negate them from the responsibility of what they post.
Please elaborate. Aside from one entry regarding JR's Net cafe I didn't see anything that could possibly be considered 'irresponsible' on my part.
Miz has pretty much summed up how I think of the leak. We obtained the information, there was a lot of it, we published it without comment. I have a feeling if we had made attempts to comment on released material, we'd have been jumped on in a similar fashion, given past reactions to criticism from ANN.
I'd also like to know whether the people decrying it at 'petty', 'irrelevant' and 'smear material' OOC have actually read through it. Most of the specific complaints I've had seen been one or two entries, which in my mind, are hardly inflammatory at all. I've removed one on request, but frankly, I feel a number of people are using this as an opportunity to make attacks on me and my corporation.
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Posting OOC content to an IC forum (IGS) is a dick move, end of story. No way to weasel out of it, argue, change opinions, or the usual. That content does not belong on IC threads on IGS.
That the link contained some IC related things is completely irrelevant considering the vast majority of the content was in no way, shape, or form, related to anything IC.
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Posting OOC content to an IC forum (IGS) is a dick move, end of story. No way to weasel out of it, argue, change opinions, or the usual. That content does not belong on IC threads on IGS.
The IGS post was not one of mine. There is presently a blanket ban on AI posting there, and I'm no exception to the rule.
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That doesn't negate them from the responsibility of what they post.
Please elaborate. Aside from one entry regarding JR's Net cafe I didn't see anything that could possibly be considered 'irresponsible' on my part.
Miz has pretty much summed up how I think of the leak. We obtained the information, there was a lot of it, we published it without comment. I have a feeling if we had made attempts to comment on released material, we'd have been jumped on in a similar fashion, given past reactions to criticism from ANN.
Well, you posted material on your site. Presumably, because you're a roleplay corporation, your news is also of a similar persuasion. You make information public, on your site, the material is now your responsibility. In other words, stating, "Hey we just got the info and dumped it un-edited, don't blame us for having personal (ooc) content on there" doesn't negate that point that you made it available to the public. It's your responsibility.
So you had a choice here. You could have edited out the information that wasn't personal or clearly OOC, and gotten flak for 'not posting the full story', or left it all in a giant infodump like you did, where people now question the validity of the content. I think in your position I'd have chosen the former, that's all.
I don't have anything against your organization, I just think it could have been handled better. (opinion :P)
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Posting OOC content to an IC forum (IGS) is a dick move, end of story. No way to weasel out of it, argue, change opinions, or the usual. That content does not belong on IC threads on IGS.
The IGS post was not one of mine. There is presently a blanket ban on AI posting there, and I'm no exception to the rule.
I haven't looked into it enough to know who posted exactly what, just speaking about the concept in general. If you didn't put it up, nothing directed at you.
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I love ANN, but having read most of the leaked material, I still found it rather unimportant. There are no indications, imo, of an I-RED failure cascade and no earth-shattering revelations to be found in the stuff. It's just... a bunch of mails and internals.
I'd also like to know whether the people decrying it at 'petty', 'irrelevant' and 'smear material' OOC have actually read through it. Most of the specific complaints I've had seen been one or two entries, which in my mind, are hardly inflammatory at all. I've removed one on request, but frankly, I feel a number of people are using this as an opportunity to make attacks on me and my corporation.
I don't think it's petty of you, AI, or ANN to act as an information broker. In fact, I think it's rather neat, but you could have done a bit more cleaning up of the leaked data before publishing, especially since John clearly objected to the inclusion of the RL information and said information (even if someone doesn't mind it getting out) obviously has no place in RP. Overall I don't think this leak can fairly be called 'petty' or 'nasty' as it really doesn't seem to give offense of any kind. There's no commentary. It's just reprinted information. However, it was apparently rushed, published in far too raw a form to pass as much of an 'event', and the content is just a flop. Hype without substance. But maybe that's part of working in the media. ;)
I like Jade's suggestion from several posts up. Can we have a re-do?
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I think the problem lies with the fact I-RED do not communicate internally IC, we discuss the IC ramifications of our actions but it's mostly OOC chatter.
My gripe is with the fact that allot of this OOC information was just dumped out in an IC format on an IC news agency, to me this is wrong. That being said if we removed all the OOC logs this dump would be tiny.
as for whom the spys are well..
From what ive seen the government chat ends two months ago meaning that came from a different source while more recent stuff came from a drake pilot with no roles within RDC.
I have a vague idea who would sell out our Gov chat logs like that who left two months ago.
I-RED is not concerned about our mails being leaked, we know we have spys, we just don't like our real life laundry being leaked with it and then pressented as IC, the RP community dose not need to know about us as people only us as charaters.
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That doesn't negate them from the responsibility of what they post.
Please elaborate. Aside from one entry regarding JR's Net cafe I didn't see anything that could possibly be considered 'irresponsible' on my part.
Miz has pretty much summed up how I think of the leak. We obtained the information, there was a lot of it, we published it without comment. I have a feeling if we had made attempts to comment on released material, we'd have been jumped on in a similar fashion, given past reactions to criticism from ANN.
I'd also like to know whether the people decrying it at 'petty', 'irrelevant' and 'smear material' OOC have actually read through it. Most of the specific complaints I've had seen been one or two entries, which in my mind, are hardly inflammatory at all. I've removed one on request, but frankly, I feel a number of people are using this as an opportunity to make attacks on me and my corporation.
You know full well that we've always got on and I have no reason at all to want to make an attack on your corporation.
I still stand by my opinion that it was an extremely dick-headed move, and I honestly didn't expect it coming from you.
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My gripe is with the fact that allot of this OOC information was just dumped out in an IC format on an IC news agency, to me this is wrong. That being said if we removed all the OOC logs this dump would be tiny.
As far as I'm concerned, It was 'dumped' with an IC News agency in .txt format. As Mizhara has already mentioned, many of the not-explicitly IC channels and information can be used IC, without crossing sensible boundaries.
It's also my impression that IRED do bugger all RP internally. If I'd released purely OOC information with none of the explicitly IC logs, would everyone still be up in arms about this? probably.
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I have to agree with Milo. I feel that there is a lot of unnecessary drama going on just. OOC comments were in there, and as a player you have to read that as well. There was enough IC information there to get the point across that I-RED was engaging in behavior not expected. OOC logs are the norm in most alliances, just for logistical and organizational purposes. To harp on this one point is flawed, in my opinion.
That being said, what's done is done. Deleting the post won't change anything, but appease those that are concerned. Furthermore, by even commenting in OOC in Isagar's IC thread is changing the tone and adding conflict. It should have been handled in an IC way, Silas.
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le'sigh
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Is a damn good point. Imagine if the BBC just put out a random collection of junk notes and unattributed videos and with the disclaimer ... "sort out the news yourself guys!"
Not really good enough.
I take it you've been watching the coverage in Syria
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Furthermore, by even commenting in OOC in Isagar's IC thread is changing the tone and adding conflict. It should have been handled in an IC way, Silas.
Disagree. By commenting IC you are encouraging the thread and giving this sort of behavior oxygen.
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Quote from: Jade Constantine on Today at 10:53 AM
Is a damn good point. Imagine if the BBC just put out a random collection of junk notes and unattributed videos and with the disclaimer ... "sort out the news yourself guys!"
Not really good enough.
I take it you've been watching the coverage in Syria
HAHAHA wow thats sharp lol
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Pretty much everything can be considered IC from where I'm standing. Diplomacy, Voice Comms, and yes... even SiSi. (Combat Simulator, voila. SiSi is IC.) Vent/TS is just a voice comms protocol and forums and killboards are exactly that. Galnet resources for the corporation/alliance in question.
There's almost nothing you can't turn IC if you can be arsed.
That's the beauty of Eve.
Sure, but only if you're assuming that IC and OOC motivations are linked. That, in my opinion, is the catch here. Should I assume that because Miz acts in a certain way, that you (the player) does, too? Should I make assumptions about, for example, the character Stephanie Plum based on what I know of the author Janet Evanovich? IRL I'm quite friendly with some people who play characters that Shin is distinctly hostile towards. Someone could grab an OOC chat I have with them (in game, so Shin's name is there). Does that mean that Shin is being friendly ICly with that person? Of course not.
It's not the technology (Sisi as a simulator, etc). It's the fourth freakin' wall.
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Oh, I agree there, Shin. Some stuff is just purely OoC. However, a lot of the stuff that's done OoC in this game can be taken as IC. If not, we could never really interact with non-RPers without stuffing our fingers in our ears and going "LALALALALALA MY CHARACTER CAN'T HEAR OR SEE YOU!".
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Oh, I agree there, Shin. Some stuff is just purely OoC. However, a lot of the stuff that's done OoC in this game can be taken as IC. If not, we could never really interact with non-RPers without stuffing our fingers in our ears and going "LALALALALALA MY CHARACTER CAN'T HEAR OR SEE YOU!".
Just dont picture John as a child who whines in alliance that he has to take a shit like I do OOCly. plsthx :oops:
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Hmm... well, this was fun. Out of the loop for a bit and then kaboom, shitstorm. So, for starters, I wasn't made aware of what we'd been handed until after it had been published, at which point I said "huh, that's neat," and went to bed. But there seems to be a lot of unhappiness over it, so I'd like to sort out what happened and why and see if we can get everyone on the same page.
What happened prior to the publishing of the logs and mails and whatnot: ANN was approached by disgruntled member of IRED who had some stuff they wanted published. [To clarify - there was no infiltration, this was provided to us by a current member of IRED. That said, if you want to give us an award for worst infiltrators of the year, we'll take it. It'll give me something shiny to give my gf to show that we're going steady. Aaaannnyways...] The directorate of ANN gave it a quick read-through, edited out most of the stuff about RL (As I'm not part of the ANN team or the corp Directorate, I'm not in a position to apologize for them, but I will anyways. Sorry JR about the bit of RL that slipped through), and published it. A small blurb on ANN was written and that was it.
What happened afterward: One of ANN's readers linked the article on IGS and said some stuff about how this would be the downfall of IRED. Frankly, we all know that it won't be the end of IRED, they've been around for years and probably aren't going away any time soon. This then led to a bunch of people shouting "Down with this sort of thing" and basically spewing OOC vitriol on the IGS. While I mean no disrespect to any of the people involved, I find it hard to believe that their characters would suddenly behave that way if not for the feeding frenzy that was started. This really does seem (to me) like OOC bleeding right back into IC.
Unfortunately, ANN failed to do what it needed to and dissociate itself from the statements of the OP immediately, because in addition to not planning to put it up on IGS, we actually have a corp-wide ban on IGS posting in effect in order to keep some of our more impulsive members from getting dragged into arguments they shouldn't be in. So rather than heading this off when there was a chance, the echo chamber got going and we've seen where that ended up.
[ As an aside, I believe that this should demonstrate the distinction between Anshar and ANN quite clearly - as I have been the only reliably active member of Anshar for the last couple months and I had no knowledge at all of this going on. ]
On to the other issue, and were most people seem to have a problem with what was published: The dreaded Content.
The fact is that a lot of what ANN was given was OOC logs and mails from various channels. Understandably, posting these logs as part of the dump on an IC news site could be (and was) seen as a breach of the IC/OOC divide. My question is this: How would you have handled it to maintain the integrity of that divide? We've recently seen the growth of a couple of immersionist RP corps where all meaningful discussion is done IC and it would therefore be possible to release IC logs of their plotting and scheming. But what do you do with an organization like IRED where everything internal occurs OOC? If we were to cut it down to strictly IC, there'd be nothing. At least, nothing from the logs we were provided by the aforementioned disgruntled IRED member, we did have a leftover log from Stars End when JR chatted with Nikita about harassing LDIS.
For example, let's say that I'm in a corp. Let's say I'm even a member in good standing, not a spy. It comes up in discussion in corp chat to screw over another corp for whatever reason. However, the discussion doesn't technically occur in character - we're not sitting around a table /emoting our way though it, we're chatting in corp. Now let's say that my character has a conscience and decides to go and tell someone about this plan IC - or maybe goes and blabs about it on IGS or in a public bar or something. Was this a breach of the IC/OOC divide?
The other question then: How should something like this be handled in the future?
Not that I expect there to be a future event like this for us, but fate has a sense of humor, so who knows. ANN understands that this was mishandled even if they are still a bit surprised by the rather vitriolic response from all corners and intends to learn from the resulting clusterfuck.
Would you prefer to simply see such OOC logs never published? Should they be more heavily edited to exclude most of the OOC?
What parts of these OOC logs are viable information IC?
What parts of OOC logs in general are viable IC?
Should I be ignoring IC the fact that someone might be plotting to betray me simply because the plot is 'strictly OOC'?
How many people have actually read all of the logs in question? I haven't yet.
Hoping we can turn this towards a more civil discourse now that everyone's (hopefully) done calling Milo a dick.
Thanks,
Orthic
The Stone-Faced Old Man
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Reply to Orthic to 'how should this be handled in the future'.
Personally I don't think you should have taken out everything OOC. It's not your job to decide what is IC and what is OOC and quite frankly I don't think you would have the right to decide that for John or for the rest of the community as a whole.
That said, and take this as you will because while I did browse some of it (I admit, I am a drama whore, so I was intrigued, looking for :eek: moments :oops:) it was irresponsible for you to post everything raw without vetting it for personal information that could identify any player (the actual player).
Whether that actually happened, I don't know I didn't see it, but then again, I didn't read it all; just going by what I saw here. But any responsible organization that even pretends to be even psudo-journalists would do so (ffs even Wikileaks has been sitting on documents because of possible harm to US and allied soldiers).
I'm obviously not talking about Vent passwords, killboard passwords etc. I'm talking about stuff that would give away John's (or anyone in his corp's) RL name, location, job, etc. Even if it's simply deleting a line in a log and replacing it with 'REDACTED', that would be the responsible thing to do in this case.
Again, I will be in disagreement with most people here when I don't think it was wrong for you to have published it, I just think it was wrong for you not to have vetted it; again, not for OOC/IC information - but for as I stated, OOG information.
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Ok, my thoughts on this are heavily laden with hindsight so you'll have to forgive me...
Perhaps a way this could have been managed as a potential for good RP while still revealing the data would have been for ANN to approach I-RED OOC and said.
"Ok, we've been passed a whole load of internal I-RED data, channel logs, vent fleet recordings, screenshots and ANN is going to do a Wikileaks style public release. We've taken a look and there's some OOC personal stuff mixed in there. Can you take a look and point out anything that mustn't be included and what's left is going live in 24 hours."
Let the source know and everyone's comfortable. I-RED get to make sure no personal stuff is in there, ANN get their breaking news (without the shit storm), and the IGS announcement that sent everyone running hoping for something juicy would have been better managed.
Sure, that doesn't change the nature of the majority of the data being of very little IG value (and yes people I have listened to the vent recordings, read a lot (not all) of the logs and checked out the standings screenshots). That said, I agree that the content could be interpreted and referred to IC with a little effort.
But like I said... hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I don't think ANN should be put off from a similar release in the future should someone else come forward with a secret inside information that'll bring down alliance x, y or z. It'd be a shame if they did.
This kind of scenario has so much RP potential, this time it just fell short.
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^that guy beat me to it.
Allowing I-RED to go through it pre-publishing would have been the most optimal shitstorm-prevention solution I can think of.
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I-RED would have probably went with it as well. For RP sake, since when was it a bad thing to look bad in the media every once and awhile hmm?
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In Responce to Orthic
Well the way i look at this, Infiltration and or Information laundering is a valid tactic, we may not like this but at the end of the day thats the way things go.
And i do see your point on the OOC and IC divide, however...
I do feel these files should have been combed more carfully, things such as an OOC chat about what somone had for dinner isnt really the greatest dump to put on the IGS.
This is how i would have dealt with it if it was me, i would have firstly read all the data and picked relevent infomation such as OOC chats of dealings with shadey friends, this would have let people percive our plans in an IC way.
Just dumping lots of raw infomation on an IC News Feed just felt like a malicious attackon us which is fine if you have an axe to grind with us OOC.
I feel a more tactile aproach would have serverd better purpose.
Weve analized alot of the data at hand anyways and apart from a few hic ups here and there it seems pretty fine.
Ive lost my trail of thought...
Cheif
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What parts of these OOC logs are viable information IC?
What parts of OOC logs in general are viable IC?
For me, I would say anything that has In Game Relevance is fair game. For example, if you are OOC talking about a Character you have just bought off the Character Bazaar and I'm Physically in Channel when you speak about it, then I've just heard a Rumour from a "Reliable Source" about a potential link between the newly purchased Character and the Main that the Player is representing.
If I'm reading about it second hand through a Chatlog, then it's a Rumour heard from a Third Party Source and so inherently less Reliable.
In both Cases, Verification would be performed IC if I needed to be certain on a fact, however it wouldn't be the first time that someone has gone off Half Cocked on the Basis of an Unverified Rumour that turned out in hindsight to be wrong
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On the other hand, knowing that, for example, the Player behind John Revenant has a fondness for Hong Kong Action Films isn't really relevant in Game so therefore isn't relevant IC.
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Actually, to be perfectly honest the funniest thing about this whole debacle is Damar Rocarion moping about Intaki casting sad eyes at everyone and saying how the I-RED Ventrilo comm logs are "hilarious".
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Another irony is how this whole business actually made me feel quite good about the "rp community" :)
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+++
I wonder if some good can come out of all this and we could collectively agree with the principle/convention that any OOC material (chatlogs/discussions/vent recordings and such) should not be brought into an IC context without the permission of the person you are talking too.
I find that respecting ooc discussions in this way does make me feel a bit better about myself - I'm intrigued to find out if its something other people agree with?
Again speaking personally (though to a degree referencing our alliance principles) we don't like this whole "chatlogs at dawn" culture that sometimes develops on top of IC conflict and debate.
Is why we (in SF) have an internal convention against ever posting ooc chatlogs / private mails without the permission of the other party (unless of course the other party does it first in a partial or edited fashion and decency requires both sides of the argument is heard).
Could this be something we could collectively agree on ?
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I agree that if you're going to use a leak for RP purposes, you should try to separate the IC stuff from the OOC stuff.
Indeed, I've been saying so for some time - the No.Mercy leak is one incident that springs to mind.
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What are you people upset about? There's nothing there embarrassing or damaging.
Corp espionage is part of the game, and this little bit of it seems mostly harmless.
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LOL you know Milo if you wanted a better leak you could have just asked me, im more than happy to give you some juicy goings on providing john dosnt shoot me before i do so.
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What are you people upset about? There's nothing there embarrassing or damaging.
Corp espionage is part of the game, and this little bit of it seems mostly harmless.
For me its about a little out of character courtesy as much as anything. If people go to the bother of chatting to one another about rl stuff and clearly are on the level of players NOT characters I feel its a bit rude for one side to unilaterally go "chatlogs at dawn" and post up the logs without permission just to try to make the other side look bad.
I guess its unenforceable as conventions go - but I'd like to think there would be some consequence to the reputation of people doing this routinely.
IC revelations - I'm much more comfortable with in general (but ic-wise wouldn't happen in this format from Jade and SF anyway due to our respect for diplomatic nicety)
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In my opinion it's also about simply keeping the OOC/IC divide intact. If I'm chatting OOCly with someone about how we can set up a conflict between our characters, I don't want to see that chatlog leaked as some sort of "proof" that Shin is colluding with some random enemy.
For what it's worth, Jade's proposal about not leaking OOC materials unless everyone involved agrees is spot on. Hell, I know if ANN came to me some day and said "we have this OOC chatlog, and we want to stir up trouble for you with it", I'd probably help them spin it in the most scandal-producing manner. :D
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Looks like CCP nuked the link going to ANN's site, and all the Logs posted on IGS.
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Looks like CCP nuked the link going to ANN's site, and all the Logs posted on IGS.
Good move. It took them a bit of time, but they got around to it nicely.
Now, if only we won't get more if this useless OOC-info-as-IC-plot-building-device bull I'll be quite happy. IC info is fine, this... I believe I've commented on this already. If you want to use OOC-gained info for an IC event or move or w/e then gain consent first for everyone's sake.
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Channel ID: 2120715814
Channel Name: I-RED-Government
Listener: chekerss
Session started: 2011.01.29 02:50:11
I find this funny though since I know chekerss, and it was obvious planted. Since all other names are REDACTED, and he is one of the more committed pilots. Plus the (Real) person who did give out the Government logs came clean and he did so not expecting them to be publicized in such a way.