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Author Topic: US/German spy 'scandal'  (Read 12122 times)

Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #45 on: 15 Jul 2014, 08:53 »

Another fascinating topic for me is what constitutes 'extreme' across the ocean.  There's interesting mixtures of issues where your average middle of the ground political stance in Europe is wildly left wing here, and vice versa, something that would be fairly middle ground here would be wildly radical overseas. 

Do your radical parties simply get more 'exposure' for elections rather than actual support? 

One of the difficult (or perhaps brilliant) things with American politics is that the overall winners for national contests have to toe a very careful line usually in the middle on many issues, essentially triangulating a position on most issues that pleases the most people and alienates the fewest.  That's all well and good for national elections, but you must first be 'elected' by your political party to run nationally, and your own party is the only one voting for that contest.   This makes for a sort of disastrous early contest where each party's fringe/radical elements get enormous support in the primaries but have 0 chance to win nationally.  So the middle of the road candidate has to play a game early on where they appear radical enough to make it out of the grueling primary contest against their own party brothers/sisters and then they have to tack sharply to the middle to win a national election.  The opposing side nationally gets a lot of free points because they just get to play tape of the candidate saying something crazy from a few months ago from trying to win the party candidate slot.

Yah, that is quite the correct observation in my opinion. The political spectrum is shifted to the 'left' in Europe, if compared to the US, as I see it. A Party like the 'Linke' ('Leftist Party') in Germany, which would be considered to be on the left fringe of the political spectrum here would prolly be out-of-the-question communist extremists in the US.

As to the radicals and elections... this all depends a lot on the election system and thus a lot on the level on which elections take place - like national or EU. I think the election for the EU parliament is largely similar across the countries, but there are differences! E.g. Germany had a '5% hurdle' you needeed to get above to get any of the german seats in EU parliament elections until last elections. This was to prevent radicals from entering there, but it was opposed by small, non-radical parties.

I think the real problem with the EU parliament is that most EU citizens see it as kind of a sham. Thus, the moderate voters aren't very interested in how this turns out, while on the other hand the radicals will always cast their vote. So, while a lot of the decisions of the EU are in the last instance made by the national governments coming to an agreement, we have an over representation of anti-EU radicals in the EU parliament - and of course they try to make their influence felt on the matters that the EU parliament can decide.
« Last Edit: 15 Jul 2014, 09:00 by Nicoletta Mithra »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #46 on: 15 Jul 2014, 09:40 »

For Lyn

Seats per country in the European Parliament are fixed, not decided by election. Otherwise the UK would have like, 3 seats.

The drama with France, and the UK for that matter, is that anti-EU right-wing parties were the top of the polls in both countries. Front Nationale for France, UKIP for UK.

I don't remember where I heard that loss of seats and what I got mixed up with...

Also that's drama yes, but that's also funny since both can't bear each other. UKIP spent their time rejecting alliances with FN since they do not share the same ideals at all. UKIP is just anti EU, FN is... more than just that. And then you have right wing extremists parties like in Greece that are more or less close to fascist ideologies that did decent score too, and that no other right wing party wanted to associate with...

They may be more numerous than ever, but they are completely isolated.


Well, I think it's understandable that you didn't want to sell to a German company, given that it'd have been another economical lever for Germany against France. On the other hand, I can see why you wouldn't want to sell to US corporations either. France is in a difficult position, it seems to me, and it needs to get back on track, imho, for the sake of Europe.

Maybe they didn't for those reasons, but I hardly think so. They don't even think that far, all that people saw was a possible loss of hundred jobs. And that kind of things is taken very seriously here in the media, among other things. Anyway they did good damage control by only allowing GE to buy the energy part of the company, which was the failing part, and not the transport part, which is what really matters in my eyes in terms of national technology (rail especially).

However I don't think the country is in such a difficult position, it just could be better. The national debt, for example, is slightly lower than Germany's one, and yet they make a big deal out of it in the EU just because the commercial balance is negative.

There is also another issue that cripples a lot of countries is the high level of the currency, that is kept that way because it benefits Germany. But it certainly doesn't help other countries to export against countries like the US or China that spend their time lowering theirs.
« Last Edit: 15 Jul 2014, 09:45 by Lyn Farel »
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Victoria Stecker

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #47 on: 15 Jul 2014, 10:07 »

RE: American politics being so far to the right compared to everyone else, there are a couple of major factors to that.

The major one was the Red Scare. We spent a couple decades being afraid of leftists. We decided that Socialism and Communism were the same thing (anti-intellectualism doesn't help this issue), etc. This is still an issue - I had a friend on facebook tell me that he thought I sounded like a socialist because I supported food stamps, and that socialism was bad because the Nazis were socialists.

Your next big event is Newt Gingrich writing the book (literally, he wrote a book on how to do this) describing a way to win elections by slandering your opponent as anti-family, anti-flag (how the fuck does that work?), anti-child (lolwut?), anti-patriot, etc. And it fucking worked. So you ended up with Democrats having to shift to the right to deal with this. But then, rather than declaring victory ("Woohoo, we made the democrats act like us!") the Republicans instead decided that they had to keep tarring the Dems as liberals - which doesn't work if you have the exact same policy positions. So they had to move even farther to the right. End result is that our "liberal" party holds positions that would make them conservative in Europe, and our mainstream "conservative" party holds positions that line up nicely with Europe's far right. And our far right wing... well, they end up sounding like Europe's neo-nazis. Fuck.

RE: America and the scars of war, there are a few reasons why our experience with this is so different from Europe's. The biggest is time: The civil war happened 80 years before WWII. That's 3 generations - 4 or 5 in certain parts of the country  :lol:  And the experience of that war was very different depending on which part of the country you were in. The south fought it on their own turf and got hammered. The north only saw a bit of fighting in MD and PA. For those in the south whose great-great-...-grandparents died in the war and are burried in their back yard, it's still a very personal thing. But for most of the country, it's just a history lesson, and one with a very heavy moral slant. So even though it was devastating at the time (roughly 2% of the population killed), the portion of the population that felt that and could pass on the memory has been shirnking ever since because:

This all happened long before in a country with a shit-tonne of immigration. The side of my family that I know the geneology for didn't even come over from the Netherlands until the early part of the 20th century, and then moved to Michigan. As far as I'm aware, neither side of my family has any connection to the antebellum south.

The other thing is a matter of scale. The American Civil War was horrific, and yet even the higher fatality estimates (750K) pale in comparison to WWI's 16 million and WWII's 20-30 million. There were more deaths in the battle for Stalingrad alone (right around 2 million) than the US military has suffered in the entirety of its 240 year existence (1.5 millionish, 2/3s of which occurred in the Civil War and in WWII).

So yeah, while the US does have experience with war, it's still very different than that of Europe.

And this is a cool thread that I wish I had more time to pay attention to.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #48 on: 15 Jul 2014, 10:12 »

It's okay, we spent a couple of decades being afraid of nazis.  :P
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Kala

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #49 on: 15 Jul 2014, 11:27 »

Quote
This is still an issue - I had a friend on facebook tell me that he thought I sounded like a socialist because I supported food stamps, and that socialism was bad because the Nazis were socialists.

yeah, I see this a lot on the interwebs...
people will claim that Nazis were left-wing because they have socialist in the name  :s

National socialist.  Far-right.

brr.
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Desiderya

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #50 on: 15 Jul 2014, 14:47 »

Silas, can you clarify what you mean by 'the French and Germans and Nordic countries can be terribly cruel to Mediterranean and African immigrants and refugees".

Italy sending refugees to drown might also be pushing it a bit.

Not pushing it, although I don't have many more specific examples on hand at the moment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/no-welcome-for-refugees-as-italy-turns-boat-away-2242923.html

At the office, but will try and be more specific regarding african/middle-eastern refugees into Europe shortly.

Don't take it personally though, we have more than enough crazy anti-immigrant abhorrent behavior on the US border to make us all embarrassed.

EDIT:  A few quick links, although I have not vetted these articles:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/26/euroskeptic-anti-immigrant-parties-make-big-gains-in-european-union-elections/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/31/europe-anti-immigration/5706575/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/24/sweden-immigration-far-right-asylum

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/significance-swiss-immigration-limits/

http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/03/european-commission-bankrolls-anti-immigrant-policies/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ahmed-moor/europes-anti-muslim-racis_b_565651.html

I didn't talk about small groups that barely make it into national parliaments, if at all. The one article you provided is three and a half years old. The article I've linked covers the Lampedusa sinking as the starting point in changing the treatment of these refugees. That not everyone's accepted is quite a different story to 'sending people to drown'. Everyone wants to help refugees - but "please not in my front yard.", so overall it's a pretty shit situation to be a refugee.

As bonus points, the huffingtonpost article is quite a read - been some time since I've consumed such mentally challenged bullshit.
« Last Edit: 15 Jul 2014, 15:33 by Desiderya »
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Nmaro Makari

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #51 on: 15 Jul 2014, 15:25 »

For Silas and others.

I can't much speak for the whole of Europe, but for the UK specifically there is just a different history and thus attitude.

Keeping it as brief as possible, immediately after WWII in 1945, the electorate actually voted out Churchill's government in favour of the left-wing (and broadly anti-soviet) Labour Party under Clement Attlee, which won in a landslide. In just five years, the National Health Service was established, the welfare state fully established and mass nationalisation of industry and infrastructure.

It derived very much from a simplified and oft-repeated maxim; if you can organise a state and it's people so effectively for war, the same can be done for peace, to build schools, hospitals etc.

In just five years, there were about 200 major reforms enacted, which saw quality of life rise in a manner which has not yet been repeated. People who were once in fear of being killed by common diseases were taken care of, people were housed and housed well, wages rose, generally things improved. And to top it off  the budget books were balanced.

You have to remember that people feared that what happened after the First World War would happen after the second, which was huge, crippling poverty, pestilence, unemployment and general decline.

Now things move on, obviously, but the postwar years massively changed this country, probably making it one of the most socialist country, certainly one of the most successful in the world of the time. My own grandparents, both of them lifelong conservatives consistently tell me that Attlee was the greatest Prime Minister of the 20th Century.

The reason why this is so important is because it laid the foundations for Britain even up until this day. There is still a National Health Service (observed by a Conservative minister to be "the closest thing the the English have to a religion), and the general trend, even after the Thatcher years is that the welfare state should be continued.

Just a little history for you. Enjoy.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #52 on: 15 Jul 2014, 16:06 »

That's interesting Nmaro! I didn't know that.

History of social services is a little different over here in Germany and of course it's connected to Marx. But basically the social services were instituted by monarchist forces under Bismark, thus by meeting the needs of the workers in Germany taking away ammunition from the communistic/anti-monarchist movement of the time quiet successfully.

So, social policies have a long standing tradition with the german right/conservative politicians as - if nothing else - a way of controlling the population. And while the ideas behind social services and practice are at times quite different between the two ends of the spectrum, the practice is quite similar.

Especially in post WWII Germany the social services were build up extensively by all governments (at first Adenauer) for pretty much the same reasons as you state for the UK, Nmaro. There was fear of an impoverished population that would turn into a mob and that the story of the Nazi rise to power would repeat itself under such conditions. The US pumping money into Germany helped with that a lot, of course. In the end Germany worked so well with the money we got from the Marshall plan that after paying it back we had worked out a profit through investments with it.

Now, the social services are cut back in Germany, but indeed the consensus is that the welfare state needs to be continued in some form.

(...)

So yeah, while the US does have experience with war, it's still very different than that of Europe.

And this is a cool thread that I wish I had more time to pay attention to.

You're making my point about how I see the difference in US experience  with war compared to the European far better than I could! This is kind of the line of thinking I'mfollowing as well.

I'm happy you like this thread! I enjoy all the people chiming in as well, I think it's quite great indeed!
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Vikarion

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #53 on: 15 Jul 2014, 22:34 »

In regards to war casualties, I'm going to be a bit cruel (IOW, realist) here, because the truth is cruel.

Americans didn't have far fewer casualties in World War 2 because Asians and Europeans (I am speaking in geographical, not racial, terms here) just suffered more. Americans had fewer casualties than the other combatants because the other combatants were fucking awful at training and supplying their soldiers.

Take the Imperial Japanese Army. They carried single shot Arisaka bolt-action rifles with fixed bayonets, and a standard tactic for much of World War 2 was firing followed by a "banzai charge". This was not because the Japanese Army were somehow hugely primitive, but because this tactic worked in actions against Chinese opponents armed with similar rifles. And Japanese army training consisted in large part of brutalizing a recruit into possessing unquestioning obedience and endurance in the face of privation.

In contrast, American Marines were trained in the use of specific weapons, were issued as a main arm the Garand .30-06 semi-automatic rifle, with an eight-round clip that automatically ejected, and were taught tactics, land navigation, and equipped with squad weapons suitable to jungle and island fighting. And rather than train a Marine to simply do without, American logistics usually ensured that troops were supplied with enough (if often rather tasteless) food. That's not to say American troops didn't starve - they did. But they went home looking like they'd been malnourished. The Japanese sometimes starved to death.

Which meant that when Americans went up against the Imperial Japanese Army, they tended to achieve KIA rates of anywhere from 1-3 to 1-10 in the favor of the Americans, even on ground entirely favoring the IJA. That's not patriotic bullcrap, it's just history.

On the same level, the Russians confronted the Nazis while possessing many of the same disadvantages. Results were often similar, with the opposing downside for the Germans that their homefront was far inferior to the American one, which supplied itself, the Russians, the British, the French Resistance, and even, sometimes, the Chinese. And when the Nazis went up against the Americans, American and British tactics were still superior, as was most of their equipment, including the Sherman, when understood in the totality, including such things as production costs (two exceptions: the German infantry machinegun (mg42) and infantry anti-tank weapons were better). Aside from those two things, American planes were better, American guns were better, American tanks were better (in terms of war effect, rather than relatively rare tank-to-tank combat), and American artillery was better.

This is my preferred area of study, and I am not saying these things because I am an American. Indeed, part of the reason American equipment was better was because we shamelessly stole everything we could, such as collaborating with the British on the P-51 Mustang.

But when it comes to low casualties, the reason American casualties were so low is in large part because American logistics and production were so good. Where a German commander might be able to order a 10 minute daily barrage, an American commander could order one wherever he found resistance - and with proximity detonation shells to boot. Where a Russian commander would order divisions of bolt-action riflemen forward, an American commander could fire an artillery barrage, then move forward under a moving mortar screen, with his squads equipped with flamethrowers, bazookas, BARs, Garands, Thompson submachineguns, and with accompanying tank support, on a smaller front. As you might imagine, this greater expenditure of ammunition resulted in smaller loss of life. If that weren't enough, the fact that surrendering to Americans, Canadians, and British soldiers meant time in a POW camp far more comfortable than war-time Germany probably reduced the desire to fight to the bitter end.

In other words, and to put it cruelly, the reason Americans didn't have the same experience of war as Europeans did isn't just because of geographic isolation, it's also because they were just better at killing people without getting killed, usually by the expenditure of a truly enormous amount of ordinance that no other side could afford.

But it's not just that. Let me give an example.

Take U.S. carriers. In World War 2, naval combat transitioned to carrier combat. While it is true that the Japanese started the war with a carrier strike at Pearl Harbor, it is less well known that the foremost pre-war advocate of air power was Billy Mitchell, a U.S. serviceman. While he was court-martialed, that was more for being an ass than being right. And American carriers reflected this. Unlike British carriers, American carriers were designed with "soft decks", that is to say, they were designed with wooden decks to allow quick repair of the flight deck (theoretically), and a larger complement of aircraft. While this might seem odd, what it reflected was the understanding that the only defense a fleet has is to get planes in the air, and if you cannot repair the runway quickly, you are fucked. To make up for this, American hangar decks were vented and open to the outside air - preventing fume build-up, and American damage control was decentralized and relied on massively redundant systems, water-tight compartments, and extensive and unending damage control drills and training. American carriers had crash barriers - which meant less time clearing flight decks, and American carriers also avoided fueling planes on the hangar decks, which also prevented fume build-up. Oh, and American AA (anti-aircraft fire) was computer controlled, and the American attitude towards AA capability was such that some observing it thought that the ships firing were actually on fire - in other words, as many AA guns as you could fit on a ship. Any ship. And American AA shells had proximity fuses not long after Midway.

Meanwhile, Japanese carriers had two hangar decks, which they would fuel on, enclosed in a hull which would become rife with fumes. Their magazine elevators and procedures often ended up with them temporarily storing weapons on these same barely-ventilated hangar decks. Some Japanese carriers had only two mains for conveying water for fire-fighting, which could both be easily knocked out. And while the Japanese started the war with elite pilots, their training system was inferior to the American one, as was their flight control, their radar, and their radios. Some Japanese pilots removed their radios to save weight, they were considered so useless. And when it came to sending aircraft out, Japanese pilots often did not carry parachutes, and flew planes without armor or self-sealing fuel tanks for the majority of the war, in the majority of situations.

If one were then to comment that Americans don't know what it's like to lose a major carrier battle, I think Americans might well be pardoned for raising an ironic eyebrow.
« Last Edit: 16 Jul 2014, 19:39 by Vikarion »
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orange

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #54 on: 15 Jul 2014, 23:01 »

The US pumping money into Germany helped with that a lot, of course. In the end Germany worked so well with the money we got from the Marshall plan that after paying it back we had worked out a profit through investments with it.

Marshall Plan

Quote
The Marshall Plan money was in the form of grants that did not have to be repaid.



The entire book can be found from USAID.
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Shiori

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #55 on: 16 Jul 2014, 02:37 »

Americans didn't have far fewer casualties in World War 2 because Asians and Europeans (I am speaking in geographical, not racial, terms here) just suffered more. Americans had fewer casualties than the other combatants because the other combatants were fucking awful at training and supplying their soldiers[...]

The 45 million civilian dead might have had a few other factors to add.
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Desiderya

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #56 on: 16 Jul 2014, 03:40 »

Murica
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Shiori

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #57 on: 16 Jul 2014, 04:05 »

The US pumping money into Germany helped with that a lot, of course. In the end Germany worked so well with the money we got from the Marshall plan that after paying it back we had worked out a profit through investments with it.

Marshall Plan

Quote
The Marshall Plan money was in the form of grants that did not have to be repaid.
Nnnyes, *mostly* in the form of grants; except in the case of Germany, which was more complicated. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Loans_and_Grants,  especially that last paragraph -- presumably the developments Nico is referring to.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #58 on: 16 Jul 2014, 05:14 »

The 45 million civilian dead might have had a few other factors to add.

He did admit geographical isolation was part of it. Just not the whole of it.

I don't think anybody needs to examine the reason why 45 million civilian deaths occurred during World War II. Atrocity and collateral, mostly. The rest of this conversation is starting to sound like "Americans in the mainland haven't died enough." Sorry, but I think that's a pretty disgusting attitude to have.

Anyways, I don't think we need to be pointing fingers angrily about World War II in the year 2014, and this conversation is getting pretty damn close to it.
« Last Edit: 16 Jul 2014, 05:20 by Katrina Oniseki »
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Shiori

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Re: US/German spy 'scandal'
« Reply #59 on: 16 Jul 2014, 06:08 »

I'm not angry; it's not a contest about whose soil is more blood-soaked; but I also couldn't disagree more with that statement. The reasons why those deaths occurred are exactly the fulcrums of modern European history, and it seemed worth pointing out that the superior equipment and training of the armed forces of the United States are a tiny factor in that whole.
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