Not so much as you think. I've recently been notified the reason this is taking so long is because I've apparently hurt some feelings over the discussion of my last name. If the alliance is willing to bar someone from entry simply because of this, then I'm doing nothing more than wasting my time and energy here better spent somewhere else. I had higher hopes that such judgmental mentalities weren't so prevalent.
Some have pointed to you the other side of the coin. The discussion on your character's name incited enough "fire" to be catacombed. PIE has been around for ten years (we celebrate it now), it's logical that we take with some extra caution the decission to add a new corp by an unknown player with a dangerous second name, which could hamper our own RP and action because people will often react in extreme ways to such a surname, and see it attached to our own.
That said, I don't know personally how the discussions and debates on your acceptance are going or on what paths, as I'm not a high-ranking officer in the corp. Just trying to point to other lines of thoughts on the same matter. But do note that, if you take so closely to your chest all debates and problems your surname may bring, you're going to probably have a hard time in EVE.
I've apparently hurt some feelings over the discussion of my last name.
I don't give 2 shits about the name.
I do care that a week-old corp is getting pissy that the oldest (yes, 10 years old) RP group in the game won't just give them a seat at the table.QuoteI've apparently hurt some feelings over the discussion of my last name.
Was it because of the name itself, or how you handled opposition to your idea?
PIE doesn't give a shit about hoarding numbers, nor are desperate for pilots. PIE keeps a low number of players because the standards for entry are remarkably high, even among Amarr corps. Several successful Alliances and corporations were literally formed from those PIE either turned away, or those that broke away from PIE's demanding policies. I've flown with all of them, and even founded a few.
As a brand new character, you've already developed a reputation for snapping at those who hold differing opinions. Re-read your catacombed posts with an eye for a fact: Reputation is the only real currency of EVE.
To then ask to be a representative of the Imperial Praetoriate and all that entails...and be upset when there is anything but immediate acceptance..well..there's a word for that.
You're new, you can fix your reputation. However, I'm pretty sure this particular bridge is crispy-charred.
Luckily there are many many more out there, and your actual core corp idea is solid.
Hi Heidrich,
sadly I have miss the whole debate about your name :cry:. I could give a good inside of the name, as Im a german. And yes, Heidrich and Heydrich are two different names. I dont know were even to start :cry: (P.S. Yes Im a german, but this doesnt makes me a nazi. I say this just to be sure. *Publius looks at some people*)
Sad thing is, I could make a long boring list about that Heidrich comes from Heinrich etc... and its name relevance. For example; by the birth of a child a family gets a so call "Familenstammbuch (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familienstammbuch)" (and no, it has nothing to do with Hitler or the nazis). There you will find a ling boring list of names and where they come form; you will very fast find out that most of the name have a germanic/nordic background or a latin/greek. As for Heidrich or Heinrich, it is a germanic name; the same counts for Friedrich etc.... As for Heydrich, it is a different story. As it has a ypsilion (Greek: upsilon). I would count it as un-germanic version of the name (most likely out of the english, which uses "y" heavily. Moreover in english ypsilion is more in use in the form of the german [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/I]i[/url] Here you can hear the sound: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Close_front_unrounded_vowel.ogg ). So as I can see in the catacombs...someone wrongly said, that both names would sound the same; which is wrong. But I get were the error comes from as in english, or a native english speaker; he would just see Heidrich and Heydrich as the same (as he most likely would us a "i" sound). But this is wrong... the ypsilion has sadly no sound on the wiki which I could link (but I you can imagine it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBGTot7ZTzc#t=9s Ypsilanti was a former politican). So the error is that a english speaker would as he hasnt a "ei" would create a ei thru a "ey" (and it would a "y" like in happy; ich is the same "i (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Close_front_unrounded_vowel.ogg)" sound.
Secondly which wasnt mention in the catacombs, is the grammer. Ei and Ey are two different things. "Ei", is like "au", "eu" or "oi" a Diphthong (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong). Sadly the english language hasnt it, the closest would be lied or light. Meaning on a syllabification you cant split on a "ei" (even if german is mostly free on this, and you can mostly split words how you like. Moreover since the Rechtschreibreform (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_der_deutschen_Rechtschreibung_von_1996)),
Hi Heidrich,
sadly I have miss the whole debate about your name :cry:. I could give a good inside of the name, as Im a german. And yes, Heidrich and Heydrich are two different names. I dont know were even to start :cry: (P.S. Yes Im a german, but this doesnt makes me a nazi. I say this just to be sure. *Publius looks at some people*)
Sad thing is, I could make a long boring list about that Heidrich comes from Heinrich etc... and its name relevance. For example; by the birth of a child a family gets a so call "Familenstammbuch (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familienstammbuch)" (and no, it has nothing to do with Hitler or the nazis). There you will find a ling boring list of names and where they come form; you will very fast find out that most of the name have a germanic/nordic background or a latin/greek. As for Heidrich or Heinrich, it is a germanic name; the same counts for Friedrich etc.... As for Heydrich, it is a different story. As it has a ypsilion (Greek: upsilon). I would count it as un-germanic version of the name (most likely out of the english, which uses "y" heavily. Moreover in english ypsilion is more in use in the form of the german [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/I]i[/url] Here you can hear the sound: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Close_front_unrounded_vowel.ogg ). So as I can see in the catacombs...someone wrongly said, that both names would sound the same; which is wrong. But I get were the error comes from as in english, or a native english speaker; he would just see Heidrich and Heydrich as the same (as he most likely would us a "i" sound). But this is wrong... the ypsilion has sadly no sound on the wiki which I could link (but I you can imagine it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBGTot7ZTzc#t=9s Ypsilanti was a former politican). So the error is that a english speaker would as he hasnt a "ei" would create a ei thru a "ey" (and it would a "y" like in happy; ich is the same "i (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Close_front_unrounded_vowel.ogg)" sound.
Secondly which wasnt mention in the catacombs, is the grammer. Ei and Ey are two different things. "Ei", is like "au", "eu" or "oi" a Diphthong (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong). Sadly the english language hasnt it, the closest would be lied or light. Meaning on a syllabification you cant split on a "ei" (even if german is mostly free on this, and you can mostly split words how you like. Moreover since the Rechtschreibreform (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_der_deutschen_Rechtschreibung_von_1996)),
SOUNDS LIKE NAZI-SPEAK TO ME. GET 'IM, BOYS!
~MURICA~
(Thank you for that, Publius. The moral outrage over something so wrong, yet so obvious to a German-speaker, really rubbed me the wrong way in that thread.)
Well, I hope in time you'll learn to handle a lot worse, a lot better.
QuoteI've apparently hurt some feelings over the discussion of my last name.
Was it because of the name itself, or how you handled opposition to your idea?
QuoteI've apparently hurt some feelings over the discussion of my last name.
Was it because of the name itself, or how you handled opposition to your idea?
The opposition to the idea, as presented in the relevant thread... seems to me to have been far out of line. It was trollish, offensive, and generally mean. It was bad enough that I am not surprised the whole thread got modded. I am surprised the first 'nazi' post didn't get modded before the whole discussion became an issue.
That said, Gervas, you are applying to PIE after all. Graelyn has a point. PIE takes pride in its exclusivity and getting in is no easy task. Even if you had a name that caused no issue, they'd likely have taken issue with something else. They are elitists, and I use the term affectionately. One of the biggest tests to getting into PIE is how you handle their faked or real criticisms of you: If you can't answer the interview question-traps correctly, you don't get the job.
About elites, yeah I hear that even from Goons too :D. Im not joking, during the waiting time until the blobb is ready you will hear a lot of stuff: Sometimes a Dude, which comes along with a category systems for humans (RealLife and/or in-game); miraculously this category systems means that the Dude is in the top group of his system :D. The same counts for elitism in EVE, it is made up-stuff as the fly and walk along, with NO REAL MEANING, and miraculously this made-up stuff means that you, unlike them, not on top. The question is you are willing to believe it/or roll that way? If the answer is no, PIE wouldnt be a good home.
P.S. Do you guys - PIE - still use "Hail" as a interjection? Even as the romans never use it that way. I remember long time ago on my main, on a goons chat, a corp mate had destructed one of your PIE guys. He had use Hail as a interjection (Like Hail Jamyl etc), he got attack form this guy. First reaction of the PIE guy was of course to say: "Im not a nazi, I have said "Hail" because of the romans." Which is of course wrong. The romans use hail just in connection with a object, so in englisch would it be a "hail to". The interjection would be Ave. One of the funny moments in EVE. :D :D :D :D So may I ask (Laerise and others PIEs), do you guys still use "Hail"?
The opposition to the idea, as presented in the relevant thread... seems to me to have been far out of line. It was trollish, offensive, and generally mean.If that's been the case, then the post in question should just have been reported as such. All I can say is that I did mean to be neither trollish nor offensive and generally mean. As a German I might be oversensitive with the topic and might thus have overreacted, though. Still, I really didn't feel quite fairly treated in regard to my voiced concerns.
SOUNDS LIKE NAZI-SPEAK TO ME. GET 'IM, BOYS!
~MURICA~
(Thank you for that, Publius. The moral outrage over something so wrong, yet so obvious to a German-speaker, really rubbed me the wrong way in that thread.)
Well, that shocks the shit out of me. As a Schweizer, it didn't even occur to me to connect the name Heidrich with Heydrich.SOUNDS LIKE NAZI-SPEAK TO ME. GET 'IM, BOYS!
~MURICA~
(Thank you for that, Publius. The moral outrage over something so wrong, yet so obvious to a German-speaker, really rubbed me the wrong way in that thread.)
Laerise and Nicoletta are both German, you know. There's been no "German-bashing" by Americans here as far as I have seen. In fact, as far as I have seen, the Americans in this community tend to show quite a lot of respect for other cultures besides their own. The reverse is unfortunately not always the case. "Murica" is not only a slur, and thus inappropriate in and of itself, but also entirely inaccurate in this particular case.
And before you ask (or just presume, as the case may be), I am not American either.
I'm sure I'm opening myself to a flame job here, but I agree with Graelyn on this. You've taken your brand new corp and applied to PIE (kudos for chutzpah here!), which would basically be the equivalent of an unknown and newly created character joining a wealthy and established corp as a director. A peer, as it were, to the other established corporations in the alliance. Four or five days pass. You then come to an outside forum to discuss this.
Many corporations take at least four or five days to talk to a prospective member and decide amongst themselves if that person would be a good fit. And this is to bring someone on as a recruit. Bringing a new corporation into an established alliance is much more intimate, as that corp will have much more of an impact on the reputation of the alliance than a mere recruit would.
In my opinion, you should have gone to resolve this with PIE first, instead of airing all of this laundry here. Were I a member of PIE, that would be reason enough to vote against you.
The opposition to the idea, as presented in the relevant thread... seems to me to have been far out of line. It was trollish, offensive, and generally mean.If that's been the case, then the post in question should just have been reported as such. All I can say is that I did mean to be neither trollish nor offensive and generally mean. As a German I might be oversensitive with the topic and might thus have overreacted, though. Still, I really didn't feel quite fairly treated in regard to my voiced concerns.
I'm sure I'm opening myself to a flame job here, but I agree with Graelyn on this. You've taken your brand new corp and applied to PIE (kudos for chutzpah here!), which would basically be the equivalent of an unknown and newly created character joining a wealthy and established corp as a director. A peer, as it were, to the other established corporations in the alliance. Four or five days pass. You then come to an outside forum to discuss this.
Many corporations take at least four or five days to talk to a prospective member and decide amongst themselves if that person would be a good fit. And this is to bring someone on as a recruit. Bringing a new corporation into an established alliance is much more intimate, as that corp will have much more of an impact on the reputation of the alliance than a mere recruit would.
In my opinion, you should have gone to resolve this with PIE first, instead of airing all of this laundry here. Were I a member of PIE, that would be reason enough to vote against you.
It's obvious you haven't been following this from the beginning.
As far as I know or has been posted here, there wasn't any "no", only silence or delay in the answer. Probably it's still under debate. It took me more than a week to get my interview since I applied to PIE, and even after that half a week more for a confirmation. Processess take time, specially sensitive ones like adding a full new corporation to the alliance.
The opposition to the idea, as presented in the relevant thread... seems to me to have been far out of line. It was trollish, offensive, and generally mean.If that's been the case, then the post in question should just have been reported as such. All I can say is that I did mean to be neither trollish nor offensive and generally mean. As a German I might be oversensitive with the topic and might thus have overreacted, though. Still, I really didn't feel quite fairly treated in regard to my voiced concerns.
About: "Everything in society is "made up-stuff": rituals, relationships, bonds, currency, etc"
If you go a nihilistic way... Yes, everything is made up :D.
About: "So, saying power structures are "made up-stuff" is like saying nothing at all."
Can you explain? I would clearly say, that NOT BEVELING IN EVE ONLINE POWER STRUCTURES doesnt equal "is like saying nothing at all." Or in shorter terms: Power structures in EVE are "made up-stuff"≠ saying nothing at all. So I would reword it to: "So, saying power structures in EVE are "made up-stuff" is like saying ......" I hope I have made my "Can you explain?" a litlle more clear.
But back to the topic. I would like to think, that Im just a half ass nihilist. So I see a different between the "made up-stuff" in the Real world and the "made up-stuff" in EVE is huge. So huge, that I can say: I dont play along or "made up-stuff", and it isnt a threat to my life (Were you in the RL will hit one day a wall, or being a jail visitor or even dead).
As for our societies we have made those "power structures" along of necessity: To moderate conflicts. In EVE this conflicts exist only in a limited way. Example, you cant die. A lot of "made up-stuff" stuff in our real word is made around the idea, that we dont wanna die (we selfish people :) ). All moderation and conflict solving institutions are mostly around this notion (nicely show by D. North). This isnt the case for EVE (in EVE made up shit exist for the sake of having make up shit :D). So No, it wouldnt be like going to boss/president/police officer/fireman/teacher etc.... and saying Im not below of them.... next thingy... As this conflict solving institution are saving our lifes (could also take our life), we have a fail save in them: Check and balance, monitoring, competition, etc.... This makes me first "not bellow", it makes me a consumer/seeker. Which moderates HIS OWN CONFLICTS thru this institutions (As for me Im such a rent-seeker on this, that I even dont fuck with people I dont like. It is the job of my lawer :D. Im such a selfish person, which uses "made up" stuff for its own benefit. And their is next problem in EVE, I cant rent-seek my conflicts in EVE-online. Wouldnt be great to have PIE or someone else fight my fight against Eterne? :D Or having a Public Prosecutor fighting for conflict problems (theft, murder); and that even for free :D).
But I go to far away... so lets get back to your: " is like going to your real world teacher/boss/president and saying you are not bellow them because it's "made up-stuff"." So first I would change some stuff: "is like going to your real world teacher/boss/president and saying you are NOT PART OF because it's "made up-stuff"." So first as you can see, I wouldnt work a below and above arrangement. And why would I? Even they - teacher/boss etc... - are consumers of safety, of this collective good. So NO ABOVE AND BELOW. Secondly, now that we have not this ABOVE and BELOW arrangement in the REAL WORLD. We can say, that the real choice is between being a part of the "made up" stuff or not. And this choice is easy for me, Im so selfish; that I of course choice to be part of the "made up" stuff (I will would even say, almost all of the made-up stuff is better as anarchy.).
So, as long you, PIE, havent the level of conflict moderation (saving my life) and the same level of possible consumption (rent-seeking conflict moderation) I will and can say Im not a part of the made-up stuff :D. And my selfish ass doesnt looses something; because those "power structures", aka Institutions in EVE, arent the same as in the real world.
Let me see if I don't miss anything, without the quotes something might get lost in the middle. :)About: "Everything in society is "made up-stuff": rituals, relationships, bonds, currency, etc"
If you go a nihilistic way... Yes, everything is made up :D.
Not nihilistic at all, it's the sociological approach. Society is built out of intersubjective negotiations between society members, plus the heritage they receive from the past. That's why societies can be so different in different places, because all is open to negotiation and made up by that social group along history (not saying all can be negotiated at every moment, that would depend on legitimacy).QuoteAbout: "So, saying power structures are "made up-stuff" is like saying nothing at all."
Can you explain? I would clearly say, that NOT BEVELING IN EVE ONLINE POWER STRUCTURES doesnt equal "is like saying nothing at all." Or in shorter terms: Power structures in EVE are "made up-stuff"≠ saying nothing at all. So I would reword it to: "So, saying power structures in EVE are "made up-stuff" is like saying ......" I hope I have made my "Can you explain?" a litlle more clear.
Yes, saying "power structures are made up-stuff" is like saying "white is white", adds nothing to the meaning of the argument. Reason is because everything is made up in society by social negotiations, be it gender differences, the treatment of aging, social practices, ideals, laws... everything is a product of social interaction within the structures that same social interaction creates (structures which, in turn, condition and modify those same interactions in a two-way direction process).
There's a lot of work on this in sociology and it's hard to explain in a short way enough for a forum post. I'm leaving dozens of things outside, and simplifying infinitely those I said, so take them with an extra grain of salt. :)
Actually, as long as you play EVE, you'll be part of the made-up stuff one way or another, because it's ingrained inside of EVE. You can look for another corp, which will have other made up stuff, or you can go and build your own corp (the similair thing to leaving the country or going homeless). But you'll still have to accept lots of made up stuff if you interact with others who do accept it: you can't say your a space elf, you can't say I'm above Graelyn, you can't say the Empress is a man, etc. Social conventions, even if they are made up, become social facts (not sure how to translate Durkheim's term), and thus become a coercion over those that want to interact in that system.