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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 01 Mar 2013, 05:28
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Part of my character's background is practice of a martial art. I'd like to put it out there as an idea for people to use themselves if they so wish.
Like a lot of martial arts, this was created for a population with limited power to use in defending themselves against a population that had more of it. Namely slaves in the empire that are not resigned to, or happy with their situation. With that in mind a lot of the practice exercises are made to look like dancing (as you might imagine I am taking a bit of inspiration from Capoeira here). I'm thinking that it might even have been disguised as some sort of traditional Amarrian devotional dance (I'm thinking of the Dervishes here).
This particular art is based around the use of one or two knives (adapted single edged work knives or machetes) with the legs being used for low kicks and sweeps to place an opponent off balance. The primary defense used is dodging. Sometimes blades will be adapted with a blade catcher running alongside the blunt edge of the blade. When knives are not available chops and sword-hand strikes are used instead.
Once a student has mastered the basics of the art (this is what some real life forms represent by the black belt) most sparring is done using live blades. This is to teach respect for the weapons used and to encourage the student to develop very fine control. It is also a trust exercise between the practitioners involved.
Thoughts? Would people be happy using this as an element of their own characters or for people that their characters know?
I've been trying to figure out a name for it. Currently I have two candidates. Ogunoke and Ogunmirei. Thse are taken from a couple of Māori words I found at this site: http://www.maoridictionary.co.nz/ (http://www.maoridictionary.co.nz/)
oke (verb) (-a) to be eager, struggle, writhe, strive, fight for, battle for.
and
mīreirei (verb) to act in a defiant manner, especially in performing haka, etc.Ka mutu, ka tūtū mai ngā wāhine me ā rātau mahi hoki o te tukutuku i a rātau, o te hīteki haere, o te mīreirei haere, a, ka mau te wehi (Te Kōhure 2004:87). / And then the women stood up and did their thing prancing around and acting defiantly, and it was amazing.
coupled with the first part of my character's name.
In the Yoruba and Haitian traditional belief system, Ogun (or Ogoun, Ogún, Ogou, Ogum , Oggun) is an orisha and loa who presides over iron, hunting, politics and war. He is the patron of smiths, and is usually displayed with a number of attributes: a machete or sabre, rum and tobacco. He is one of the husbands of Erzulie, Oshun and Oya and a friend to Eshu.
I'm using the Māori elements as a nod to that bit of inspiration CCP used for Minmatar culture and the god-name because using the name of an entity from a syncretic faith that hid itself amongst that of the masters of the followers seems apt. Especially as Ogun has the association with iron and blades.
So that gives Ogunoke = Iron Strife or Ogunmirei = Iron Defiance. Of course IC the origins of the words would probably be long forgotten.
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Hi,
I had a similar concept with Halete. It's worth reading this; http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ruhste and the source here; http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sand_Giants_(Chronicle) .
Knowing what I do about Capoeira, as you've touched on in your post, I figured that Ruhste could easily be adapted to a martial art. The dance was however banned in the Empire during the occupation, but it works for my means. Halete's enslavement occured after the rebellion and under a Holder who was acting illegally. He showed less scrutiny than the Empire and his love for the dance's aesthetics lead him to allow Halete to continue to practice - additionally, I've used some of the same elements as you proposed here in that Halete had adapted it for devotional dance before her Holder's court.
So obviously with my own integration of Ruhste as a weaponised art in Halete's background I feel that there's a place for this type of thing in Minmatar RP, but if you are planning on historically tying in Ogunoke/Ogunmirei with the Amarrian occupation you should be aware that the Amarr were actively trying to route out this type of practice.
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I'd had vague ideas, but nothing quite like this, good job :) Host a class maybe :P
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Thanks Hatere. I'd almost forgotten about that chronicle.
I would assume that Mary would try and suppress this sort of thing. However given real slave populations have been able to create their own schools it doesn't seem too unlikely that the imperial slave populations might have done so. Maybe a version gets used for the Khaimerias?
I'm not entirely sold on the names though. If the rest of the community likes them though. Which one would you prefer?
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Sounds a lot like Eskrima. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28martial_art%29)
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Sounds a lot like Eskrima. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28martial_art%29)
It does. Pure coincidence though.
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I like this concept. Also thanks for linking the Maori dictionary. It's much better for my inner language geek than google translate since it has entire phrases and cultural stuff like proverbs.
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SO COOL. Oh wow! Ava would want to learn this...
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Of the two names I'd go for oke over mīrei. I like the different meanings of striving, writhing and eagerness that come with oke, whereas mīrei is to me a smooth, hard rock, and whakamīrei is to act with angry defiance of the sort that gets a bit tiring as a player of Matari.
That said, I imagine there would be plenty of people around ready to embrace an angry martial art, so pick the aspect that you most want to explore and play.
(If you do go with ogunoke I reserve the right to pun on "Ogun's okay". ;) )
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Very cool... I can see Kentt knowing a bit of some sort of martial arts. And using knives or a small blade can fit him perfectly. Maybe something along the lines of Silat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silat) or Teräs Käsi (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ter%C3%A4s_K%C3%A4si) from SWG.
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Of the two names I'd go for oke over mīrei. I like the different meanings of striving, writhing and eagerness that come with oke, whereas mīrei is to me a smooth, hard rock, and whakamīrei is to act with angry defiance of the sort that gets a bit tiring as a player of Matari.
That said, I imagine there would be plenty of people around ready to embrace an angry martial art, so pick the aspect that you most want to explore and play.
(If you do go with ogunoke I reserve the right to pun on "Ogun's okay". ;) )
Nah, I'm happy to go with your recommendation. Ogunoke it is.
I was talking to someone about this last night & they pointed out that sharp edges & arteries are a very unforgiving combination. Therefore I suspect the live blade sparring I mentioned above might be something that is done rarely. Perhaps the way a promising student proves themselves to a teacher? Also it is possible that the blades used might be slightly less than razor sharp. Still dangerous but not likely to fillet someone with a minor error of judgement.
It might be worth expanding the concept to include some other weapon forms as per Eskrima. However I'm going with the idea that knives have something of a special place in this art because a knife is such a fundamental tool, especially for an agricultural worker.
As for its place in the world. I'm figuring that the Ruhste dance form might be related to it, and that it's fairly popular amongst the Minmatar military. Arn's introduction to it is supposed to have been from a Fleet Marines teacher when he was a kid. The idea was to give him something to burn off excess energy safely and help develop his self-discipline. Both these being useful for a stationer brat, which he was at the time.
I leave it to others to decide if the Empire nicked this to use with it's own troops, or if it has any popularity in the Federation or State.
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Id like to point out, Mata's nickname is hilarious.
Also, many Minmatar people (Ava's clan included) carry various ceremonial knives. A martial art such as this would make them carrying said knives make infinitely more sense.
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I really like that Minmatar fights hand-to-hand the same way they fight in space. Or the other way 'round : ie, speed tanking.
I'm more perplexed by the two-knives thing : sure it's awesum, but there are many occasions when you're that close to an opponent where a free hand is useful... I wouldn't mind less "cool-looking", more "putting martial back in martial arts".
As for the "real knives training" : I have practiced kenjutsu, where the practitionners use bokens : wood swords. And wear no armor. Wood may not cut, but it sure is efficient breaking bones.
Oh, and of course, you're supposed to deliver real blows. They just have to stop an inch before they'd hurt your opponent (a point I never reached, obviously, a foot is the closer I've been able to manage without having anxiety attacks about what could've gone wrong). Watching 4th/5th dan fighting is awesome : it's fast, it looks violent... yet the opponents are good enough to keep the other safe.
So, real-knife training ? Why not ? Obviously reserved for the best practitionners and/or special occasions. If an accident happen, the blame would surely fall on the teacher, who failed to see that one of the students wasn't ready yet.
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Real knife training happens afaik in some martial arts, traditionally, after some stage is reached. It's supposed to teach students respect of the weapons - and I'm sure that works. I'd think it ensures keeping a steep learning curve. ;)
That said, I like this one.
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I really like that Minmatar fights hand-to-hand the same way they fight in space. Or the other way 'round : ie, speed tanking.
Y'know I hadn't considered that aspect at all. But good point.
I'm more perplexed by the two-knives thing : sure it's awesum, but there are many occasions when you're that close to an opponent where a free hand is useful... I wouldn't mind less "cool-looking", more "putting martial back in martial arts".
<snip>
I see what you mean. However as you are a student of Kenjutsu you will recall that at least one very famous practitioner of that art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi)held that one should not die with a weapon undrawn and usually fought with two swords.
;)
From what I have been told knife work is about rapid delivery of cuts to disorient and shock an opponent rather than one overwhelming blow. So think of this as the 125mm autocannon of the blade fighting world.
With the blade catchers it also seems like a logical counterpart to Nicoletta's Mary art.
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Also, most of the times it's easy to drop a blade: the other way around it's often times not so easy.
And why would a slave try to have a counter to the attacks of an Amarrian fencing maestro's attacks? ;)
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I see what you mean. However as you are a student of Kenjutsu you will recall that at least one very famous practitioner of that art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi)held that one should not die with a weapon undrawn and usually fought with two swords.
;)
From what I have been told knife work is about rapid delivery of cuts to disorient and shock an opponent rather than one overwhelming blow. So think of this as the 125mm autocannon of the blade fighting world.
With the blade catchers it also seems like a logical counterpart to Nicoletta's Mary art.
Hmmm... Basing a whole martial art on what the (allegedly) best samurai EVAH was able to do ? ^^
Samurais traditionnaly wore two swords - thus the "not letting one undrawn"... and fighting at sword's length is very different from fighting at arm's length : the "both hands holding weapons at all times" doctrine forget that a free hand is pretty darn useful (hey, the thing can grab ^^).
Is this martial art is supposed to be, first and foremost, aesthetically pleasing (a perfectly legitimate concern if its purpose is ceremonial -I can easily imagine ancient minmatar rituals involving duels to the first blood or even death, from fecondity ceremonies to reenactment of some mythological fight), or is its concern martial efficiency ?
Or two schools, mocking one another for "doinitrong" ?
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So, even if I acknowledge how useful a free hand can be - and I do - as I said, one can in about all normal situations pretty easily get a free hand. There are many martial arts styles that train, though, with two weapons in hands and are based on that. Eskrima for example does so in many training systems. In kenjutsu nitojutsu (the use of both swords) is a not uncommon - not only in Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū which was, I'm sure you know, founded by Musashi, but also in other kenjutsu schools.
It's not because he was the best samurai 'evah' that he could do it and be successful with it - that was because he received proper training - but rather he was reputed to be one of the, if not the best kenshi of his time, at least, because he made extensive use of these techniques.
Two weapon fighting styles aren't simply aesthetically pleasing, but they are also quite deadly, especially if employed by a skilled practitioner. Also, there is no "both hands holding weapons at all times" doctrine in Ogunoke, rather it "is based around the use of one or two knives". I really don't see how a "both hands holding weapons at all times" doctrine flows from that. It sounds more like a "use two weapons when appropriate, when one is appropriate, use one" doctrine.
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Yes, I am aware that kenjutsu (and in a lesser measure kendo) have schools/techniques dedicated to the use of two weapons -but again, sword-length isn't arm-length. Best swordman evah joke aside, from what I've seen, you're either very good and watching you fight is jaw-dropping, or just average-to-good and it looks clumsy. In my experience, it escalates : a talented fighter, trained to use two swords, may have a slight advantage over an equally talented (if such things can be measured, anyway) fighter using a single weapon. Lesser talented fighters are just weakening themselves doing so.
"Ogunoke [...] is based around the use of one or two knives" : my apologies, I skipped that point :s
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I would have to point out at this stage that I, myself, am not a martial artist. I do know a few however and have discussed these ideas with them.
It seems to me that the two weapon variant would be useful against an opponent with a longer blade. One knife would be used to parry or bind the opponent's blade and open them up for the second knife. Further, having two blades might be useful against multiple opponents. Lastly, I suspect two knives are easier to co-ordinate than two swords of whatever length. Also, as has been stated, it's easy enough to drop a weapon if you need a free hand.
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You wouldn't necessarily need a "free hand" to grab if you're using two knives. One of the great things about knives and some other weapons (tomahawks, see AC3 for example) are that they can be used as grabbing and controlling tools as well. If a knife is held blade down it can be used for hooking and grabbing with the back of the blade, whether that's for a parry or something offensive.
I've used or seen that grip used to sweep incoming attacks aside and for different sorts of pulls (mostly the shoulders to remove balance/setup for another attack).
Don't even think about dropping the weapon, I'd imagine that in EVE there would be well designed knife sheathes that make it easy to store the weapon quickly (little training required), especially with the blade down grip. With a good stance you would hold the knife (back/rear side) quite near to the hip anyway.
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The "fast storage of a light weapon when losing grip on it" is called a "lanyard". Also helpful if someone tries to disarm you, though not very helpful if your weapon gets stuck on something. I would assume that a high-tech environment would have lanyards connected to the forearm, allowing to easily pull the weapon back into the sleeve at a simple gesture by the user or detatch the weapon at another gesture.
Back to the earlier discussion, it is also my understanding - can't remember the source, and Wikipedia has [ citation needed ], too - that even Musashi didn't use the off-hand sword when fighting a serious opponent (such as the dueling mentioned in Wikipedia). Though apparently the use of main gauche (off-hand dagger, literally "left hand" in French) is a real thing on several fencing schools.
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The "fast storage of a light weapon when losing grip on it" is called a "lanyard". Also helpful if someone tries to disarm you, though not very helpful if your weapon gets stuck on something. I would assume that a high-tech environment would have lanyards connected to the forearm, allowing to easily pull the weapon back into the sleeve at a simple gesture by the user or detatch the weapon at another gesture.
Back to the earlier discussion, it is also my understanding - can't remember the source, and Wikipedia has [ citation needed ], too - that even Musashi didn't use the off-hand sword when fighting a serious opponent (such as the dueling mentioned in Wikipedia). Though apparently the use of main gauche (off-hand dagger, literally "left hand" in French) is a real thing on several fencing schools.
I read an essay recently that states that the two weapon style of fencing was eventually succeeded by a one sword style. Apparently the Italian schools tended to teach the use of an off hand weapon whereas the Spanish schools concentrated on attack & defense with the sword alone.
I've seen people fighting with two knives, granted in a LARP environment that isn't realistic by a long shot, and it did seem to be a good way to deliver a lot of damage very quickly. If and only if you could get inside the enemy's guard.
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As to Musashi fighting oftentimes with only the Katana, he himself wrote: "You can win with a long weapon, and yet you can also win with a short weapon. In short, the Way of the Ichi school is the spirit of winning, whatever the weapon and whatever its size."
The point is, there are different situations and whether you need an off-hand weapon or not, depends on the situation. After all, most of Musashi's reported fights seem to have been duels which he decided with a single strike. It seems that he preferred to use both weapons on the battlefield.
As to fencing, I think there was an overall development from the use of solely the sword towards sword and dagger and back again. I think it was mainly due to the situations in which a fencer found himself, given by the occasions at which he employed his art - war, dueling and later on sports.
The Spanish fencing system - afaik - Destreza did mainly teach fencing without offhand weapon, even when the italians (and later the french) fencing schools employed the dagger: But they had their techniques with the main gauche as well and also with cloak as a side arm and the buckler and round shield and even did teach how to fence with the two-handed sword, the flail, and polearms such as the pike and halberd. I'm not quite sure what esgrima vulgar of the Spanish did teach, tough.
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The development of fencing to one-handed swords has to do with the fact that when there was less armour, lunging (long thrust) with a long weapon became the most effective tactic, if I've understood right.
Nicoletta's quote reminds me of Guy Windsor, who teaches (medeival) swordsmanship in Helsinki. (We had a club doing that in the local university, a few friends practiced.) He had, on a demonstration, shown different ways - dagger vs. sword, unarmed vs. sword etc. Someone asks him why to use a weapon at all if you can get disarmed so easily. The answer was "would you like to come take this weapon from me?"
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Destreza never used the lunge, considering it to be reckless and quite dangerous and employed a lot of counter tactics that made the Spanish fencers the most feared opponents of fencers hailing from the Italian (and later French) schools, who were used to fencing along the line, while the Spanish fencers preferred movements to the side, encircling their opponent (something that Musashi embraces as well in his book of five rings irrc). So, while people in the Italian fencing tradition claim that the lunge with a long weapon was 'the most effective tactic' and effected a lot of changes to fencing, I don't think that is something one should take at face value: I think the Spanish maestros were right when they saw this potentially devastating maneuver as reckless and not only dangerous for who'd be the possible victim of this attack.
Therefore, I'm not quite sure if it was the lunge that caused the parrying dagger going out of use. I think it has more to do with the ongoing formalizing of fencing-dueling, with evolving 'rules' that favored movements along the line and the following changes in stance, which meant that the fencers body was between the opponent and his own off hand, coupled with the development of small sword, épée and foil that went well with a style that favored fast decisive (even if somewhat reckless and dangerous) actions (something the Italian style did).
Nor was dropping the use of the off-hand dagger (the main gauche) a reaction to less armor - it was mainly a parrying tool in rapier fights and a reaction to the lack of armor to begin with. Though, of course the lack of armor use was a necessary precondition for the faster weapons to have much of an effect and being usable, as someone in heavy armor was not able to move as quickly as needed with these light weapons.
So, I think that we don't see the off-hand dagger employed in classical fencing anymore is the result of the Italian and French schools of fencing developing from a mode of effectively killing an opponent to a way of two gentlemen settling their differences in a formalized framework.
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<snip>
So, I think that we don't see the off-hand dagger employed in classical fencing anymore is the result of the Italian and French schools of fencing developing from a mode of effectively killing an opponent to a way of two gentlemen settling their differences in a formalized framework.
Well I see you guys are much better read on the history of fencing than I am. Now this is not a complaint because I do find this diversion interesting, but it is a diversion from the original topic.
This last comment about fencing moving from a fighting form to a sporting form makes me ponder about how Ogunoke might change over the years. For example, originally practitioners would try to avoid showing any signs of being so, as it is illegal. Now, however, with schools openly teaching in the Republic (and possibly beyond) is it possible traditions similar to the Heidelberg one of receiving scars might spring up?
Maybe a conflict between more formal teachers and followers of some Bruce Lee type who wants to return to the origins as a fighting art and is prepared to innovate?
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Going back to Capoeira there is some interesting historical evolution as it's gained legitimacy and become more formalized. Keeping in mind that capoeira still hasn't become any form of sport, so there aren't rigid rules per se, just safety/respect concerns during roda that change how the art is practiced.
From my understanding (as capoeirista friends have explained) before formal schools existed those who practiced it were far more violent and generally used weapons (knives and the like). As capoeira has become more accepted the teaching of weapons has pretty much entirely disappeared and some of the more aggressive kicking techniques are rarely taught, or at least used. I've been taught a couple and told that I shouldn't use them in roda because they are more 'fighting' techniques and too dangerous to use in that context.
I could see tensions between the the more rigid formal schools, especially if any sort of ritual or sporting element has arisen vs. the more practical, self-defense oriented, teachers of the art. That tension exists plenty in the martial arts world even between completely different arts (Tae Kwon Do vs. Krav Maga or similar) so it's not a stretch to imagine worse tension could exist within the same one.
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Very nicely done!
Does anyone remember Wren's Seven Forms, waaay back in the day? The Minmatar Republic is a big place, and I can totally see (and I'd love to) a bunch of different martial arts that reflected their tribal origins. The various Brutor martial arts would be, I imagine, very different than the Sebiestor ones, for instance.
As far as knife fighting goes, it might be cool to bring in elements of western martial arts such as Dussack or Navaja. Navaja is especially interesting because it uses a folding knife. Folding utility knives are such useful basic tools that you could easily imagine a Navaja-like martial art developing amongst enslaved Minmatar as a way of using what blades they might be allowed.
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I am new to this forum and wish I would have found it much sooner. both of my toons are Vherokior. I write fiction based on eve and have mentioned but with no detail that the whole family is based on a warrior culture. Most of witch is a borrowed mix of Asian culture. Two past legends I have come up with. One is use of a Dashio blade, coicidentally similar to the single edge bladed mention in the post above. the second is the FearSinger, this can be found in Chinise history as cries and chants in the night to disrupt and create fear in the enemy as warriors crept up and slew their foe as the slept.
I would really like to collaborate with a few of you on defining several martial arts based on the major races of the Minmatar. As noted there are many schools of thought and strategies used in weapon on weapon, range hand to weapon and you get the idea. You can base three distinct schools of Marital art regardless of the origin. Military- Samurai, Gojoru Jujitsu ext and many forms these are based on efficiency of combat with multiple opponents. Self Defense - Most martial art fall in this category and are the most prevalent of hand to hand. Sport - Fencing, Judo, ect - based on single one on one combat and are variants at base with many military styles. I have been an avid student for many years and a qualified instructor of Akido at the root all of your self defense and military combat teaches you to use what is at hand and teach techniques and strategies to use them effectively. The Minmatar people are resilient yet resourceful and I believe there would be several different styles with assimilation into some common themes. As a slave people those would be the ones who in the old Asian feudal cultures, the opressed made use of common items as weapons. keep in mind not all Minmatar became slaves just a large portion, My RP is based on the Stormrage Clan as not former slaves all though one of the family was captured later after the Amarr were repelled. Please let me know if any of you are interested in defining some possible martial arts for the Minamatar people. We can also speculate the foundation of martial arts for the other races as well. The best way to defend against and enemy is to know how he fights.
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A long time ago while working on The Forge cultural resources (You can view the different and several topics covered world building over here: http://coldwing.100luz.com.ar/board/viewtopic.php?t=37 (http://coldwing.100luz.com.ar/board/viewtopic.php?t=37)
One of them is about a martial art (Archery) . I wrote a "quotation" from an interview to a local Wirashoda Archer. Please bear in mind that this was written as an informal interview with Natsisainen Noki, The Forge Regional Archery Champion.
Archery in the Orpana Constellation
Archery in the Orpana constellation has a long and famous history. Our folk legends tell how a mother wanting to instil the idea of unity into her sons sat them down before her and gave each an arrow telling them to snap it. Of course, they could do that easily. Then she gave each of them six arrows and told them to snap them all together. None of them could. This is how the Orpana colonists first learned about strength through unity.
Today, the sport has three main divisions based on regional styles of archery and different construction of the bow. My style is ‘Tsumine’ which is the tradition of the people of the northern Forge, and the most representative archers of this tradition can be found in Wirashoda. Another style is ‘Suitonen’ practised by the people of the center and eastern systems of The Forge. Finally, there is the ‘Uisen’ style which represents the southern Forge people.
We shoot different targets and distances. In the Suitonen style archers shoot at 35 meters, in the Tsumine at 45 meters and in the Uisen style at 75 meters. We are all united by The Forge Archers’ Union. Suitonen and Tsumine archery have many women competitors. Uisen archers are by tradition men. Each of our traditions has a special style of singing which is used by the scorer to indicate the score of each competitor. This helps us tell from a distance how our shooting is progressing.
Each of our different traditions has a different style of bow: but in fact, we can choose the type of bow we want to use freely. There are different sizes and draw-weights to suit men, women and children. The three styles of bow are ‘Imine’ – a deep form of bow based on the Raata style; ‘Senai’ and Kisonen. All these bows used to be made in the traditional fashion, using wood, sheep’s horn and sinew, although nowadays is really hard to find true handmade bows, and the original organic materials have been replaced by synthetic ones.
Natsisainen Noki, Regional Archery Champion: The Forge
Interviewed for Instinctive Archer Magazine. AD 23341 – Nugoeihuvi Corporation Press.
(Reprinted with permission)[/size]
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I like the Idea of adding archery, as in relation to the Minmatar home world and the many differing environments I can see it developing its own style. Another addition to the ones arguing about one or two weapons. It did not take much research for me to find that most "Gentleman" arts that would latter become sport were based on one on one dueling and fell to using one weapon in an honorable fight. however combat based arts tended to keep two weapons and an open mind to use what weapons and terrain are available. Many fencing styles include a dirk as a secondary weapon used primarily for defense and blocking. As to would a slave chance to prepare himself a defense for being used as a pin cushion by a overlord. I would say most defiantly, unless Vitoc was a major player, yes, yes he would take the opportunity to die and take a captor with him/her rather than live in chains.
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I don't think archery would be a logical part of Ogunoke as it's root are as a hidden art.
I have shot myself. I was a member of a field archery club some time back & still own a longbow. But that was less archery as martial art & more simulated hunting.
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I would question the idea of having knives as a very integrated part of this "disguised" martial art. At least in the begining of it, since knives are a very offensive thing. I mean, a kitchen knife, probably yes, or maybe a knife for a favorite servent or one entrusted with some important position. But your average slave?
Now, on the other hand, there are lots of things that are knife like, or can be made knife like, and don't have the same negative reaction from the slave owners point of view as a knife. Like hand shovels. No one looks at a hand shovel and thinks, "Hey, that could take my throat out." But it can be sharpened, and shined up so that if someone was dancing with a pair of them, it might just look pretty. Anyway, just my rambling on the subject.
Though I do wonder if there would have been some group of slaves in a mine who created a martial art with pick axes.
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I would question the idea of having knives as a very integrated part of this "disguised" martial art. At least in the begining of it, since knives are a very offensive thing. I mean, a kitchen knife, probably yes, or maybe a knife for a favorite servent or one entrusted with some important position. But your average slave?
Knives are a fairly basic tool, especially for agricultural slaves. And bear in mind the overlords have man portable lasers so are unlikely to be very worried about tools.
Also, work knives can sometimes be modified to be less useful as weapons. Back towards the end of the era of sail, merchant crews would carry a sheath knife, but on signing on the first mate would break off the point to make the blade useless for stabbing. Hard-case types would keep an unmodified blade in their kit.
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Though I do wonder if there would have been some group of slaves in a mine who created a martial art with pick axes.
I wouldn't be surprised. War mattocks, war picks, flails (probably), nunchucks (see flails), and the everpopular pitchforks are all examples of weapons (with established techniques for use) that sprung up out of necessity.