Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Jace on 11 Sep 2014, 12:00
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What is it about EVE that makes us come back? After about a week of being back, I started trying to figure out why I came back. I'm not really doing anything. Some standings grinding, some trading. But there is no roleplaying happening that I am interested in. I have no interest in going back to null like the old days or heading back into faction warfare like the less old days. Trading is getting boring because I have nothing to do with the ISK. As far as I am concerned, EVE RP is absolutely in its twilight - arguably so is EVE as a whole, but that is a different story.
I just can't figure out why I came back. I get nothing out of it except a very vague sense of 'home' that does not do much for me anymore. I don't log in enough anymore to make enough ISK to pay for my sub, so it is just money down the drain. I have a hard time seeing myself continuing on, instead just becoming another Backstager that enjoys talking about the lore or fiction from time to time but not actually playing the game.
Why do we come back? Is it the time investment in the characters? Is it the odd sense of home that EVE can bring?
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Can I have your stuff?
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I mean, we come and go. I didnt START eve primarily for RP, so lack of it doesn't kill me.
Again, shame Jared isn't subbed -- cause THAT would be some fun stuff :3 Wanna wait till the end of the month? LOL.
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Can I have your stuff?
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I mean, we come and go. I didnt START eve primarily for RP, so lack of it doesn't kill me.
Again, shame Jared isn't subbed -- cause THAT would be some fun stuff :3 Wanna wait till the end of the month? LOL.
I didn't start for that either. Up until 2009 I didn't really RP all that much. But I have long since become easily bored with the rest of the game. Though, part of it may just be my lessening interest in MMO's in general. I want something different. Something absurdly immersive. Combine EVE, The Sims, Tomb Raider, and Tropico. That would be a game I could get excited about again.
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That's why I resist. I tend to imagine that when I will come back there will magically be plenty of RP like in the old days just waiting for me, but that's a lie. We tend to fantasize on the good old things unconsciously while forgetting the true state of things ingame when we left in the first place.
I think we mostly come back out of nostalgia and also, because we befriended people we used to spent quite a lot of time online with and that we probably miss. I know I miss some people, especially the ones that do not come very often to backstage. And even on backstage, it's not the same, it's asynchronous.
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More people talk about Rping than RPing. ;)
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More people talk about Rping than RPing. ;)
Unless you have people you have storylines with that have been going for a long time or people you can just private convo whenever to RP, there is a critical mass required for people to find regular RP. EVE has lost that critical mass.
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You make that critical mass yourself.
Find a group, get involved, do space-stuff with them. Or even just comm people or organize events and establish storylines instead of waiting for them to happen to you.
If you're sitting in a one-man corp hoping to find interesting chatter on the Summit then it's no wonder you aren't getting any RP.
Now yes, things are at a lull. No one can deny that. But lulls don't get fixed by people sitting on their hands moping about it, they get fixed by people getting up and taking initiative.
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You make that critical mass yourself.
Find a group, get involved, do space-stuff with them. Or even just comm people or organize events and establish storylines instead of waiting for them to happen to you.
If you're sitting in a one-man corp hoping to find interesting chatter on the Summit then it's no wonder you aren't getting any RP.
Now yes, things are at a lull. No one can deny that. But lulls don't get fixed by people sitting on their hands moping about it, they get fixed by people getting up and taking initiative.
Some people have more patience than others. I have made the attempts in the past, but nothing ever came from them. And we are talking about different critical masses. I am talking about many public channels being frequently active, venues populated - that sort of critical mass. Not logging in to dead silence at all times and being required to be an RP door-to-door salesman with people. I just don't have the patience for that anymore. If some people do and they have a good time with it, more power to them. But that isn't worth it to me.
Edit: And as far as 'lulls' go, this is far beyond a lull. Unless a lull lasts years. I see no reason to believe that the days of many active channels and many sizable RP corps per faction will ever happen again. I guess that is what I have been waiting for all this time. But it just won't happen. As I said, if others enjoy the current state of things - more power to them and I hope they continue to have fun. It just don't think it is enough for me.
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Now yes, things are at a lull. No one can deny that. But lulls don't get fixed by people sitting on their hands moping about it, they get fixed by people getting up and taking initiative.
What do you propose to fix them ? One does need a clear picture on what to do to begin with.
Even before I left, I was left with absolutely no clue on how to proceed. It was not just about being part of the PIE little private circle, it was about RP actually happening. It is very easy to tell that to others when you are in your self sufficient niche when most of the former aren't. When the former are the ones actually trying things here and there out of despair.
The only alternative I saw before making my decision to leave was to create a new character and get a new start. Creating something very mainstream to be sure to fit in the correct few surviving circles. When I saw that the only solution was to join PIE or any other few surviving RP closed circles, starting anew, it just killed the last flame I still had.
tl;dr : I find it a bit harsh to get told something like that by people actually being in the easy position. Tell us what is your magical plan for it to work and i'll get back ingame asap.
Edit : sorry if that came out a bit harsh. I'm so sick of having been told that again and again and again over the past years that it's a bit like the last straw for me. I mean, maybe people are not just complaining and waiting to be fed. Maybe they are complaining for a reason ?
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It is a bit harsh but it's also (unfortunately) true.
Part of the reason the lull appears to so bad right now is because, imo, we're compounding the issue. Not enough people are out playing the part of ~content generator~ to support the number of consumers. The only way to fix that, since we know that realistically CCP won't be doing anything on their end to help, is for us to generate the content ourselves.
But if nobody's willing to step up and do it... well, all you're left with is the idle, stereotypical Summit chatter.
I've just recently held an event at the Masque for the AT, Luna's going to have a wine-tasting event in a few months I think, Steff is also having an event, and there's all of the stuff Nauplius is doing, to name a few things. But even that isn't really enough - we need more people who are willing to create content for others to interact with, and until we have that we really aren't going to see any improvements in the situation.
A bunch of hungry people sitting at a dinner table aren't going to eat unless someone cooks dinner. And right now we've got a lot of people at the table and not very many cooks. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. :(
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Edit: I would like to retroactively apologize for being a dickhead below.
It is a bit harsh but it's also (unfortunately) true.
Part of the reason the lull appears to so bad right now is because, imo, we're compounding the issue. Not enough people are out playing the part of ~content generator~ to support the number of consumers. The only way to fix that, since we know that realistically CCP won't be doing anything on their end to help, is for us to generate the content ourselves.
But if nobody's willing to step up and do it... well, all you're left with is the idle, stereotypical Summit chatter.
I've just recently held an event at the Masque for the AT, Luna's going to have a wine-tasting event in a few months I think, Steff is also having an event, and there's all of the stuff Nauplius is doing, to name a few things. But even that isn't really enough - we need more people who are willing to create content for others to interact with, and until we have that we really aren't going to see any improvements in the situation.
A bunch of hungry people sitting at a dinner table aren't going to eat unless someone cooks dinner. And right now we've got a lot of people at the table and not very many cooks. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. :(
I understand the point folks are making. But the two things I largely disagree with are: 1) the notion that there are a lot of people hungry and wanting RP, and 2) that there is much content to actually be made.
I really do not think there is a large RP playerbase for EVE anymore. Most new people I have known over the last couple of years show up for space RP and go "oh, it is all in chat windows?" Then they leave. I really do not think there are that many RPers in EVE anymore.
And about content, it has all been done before. Every type of corp imaginable, every ideology, every crisis - it has all been done by the veterans. So when anything happens, they go "meh, so what?" Yes, Naup managed to get two corps after him. But nobody else cares. And the same would be true for any 'content' generated. At the absolute best a couple small groups of people would be interested (usually nobody) and everyone else will just ridicule them for caring. Not only is it a twilight, but it is a bitter and toxic twilight.
Edit: And even if I accept all of your points and the underlying point is that it is idle because nobody is stepping up to change anything, well, that is also a twilight. Because there is no reason to believe anyone ever will change anything if that is even possible. The blame may be on those of us that are frustrated, but the consequence is the same.
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The point in the last statement is relative: compared to the number of content creators the number of content consumers is pretty large; there are not enough creators to supply the consumers adequately, partly because the creators cannot cover all of the different interests of the consumers.
I don't disagree that there is likely no longer a large RP playerbase, as far as people who want to do RP through chat in addition to space stuff goes. I think a lot of people have migrated to just doing "what I do in space is my RP, fuck chat", and given the way things have gone lately I really can't blame them. (Full disclosure: I am ALMOST at that point myself despite my best efforts, and for the people who have known me for a long time, well...)
If we want things to get better we need to do it ourselves. Host events. Start arcs. You might not catch everyone's attention but eventually you will hit on something that does. Many of us older players are kind of done with our own arcs, or stalled in them, but it's not like we won't get involved or react to other arcs going on if they intersect with our spheres of interest.
I'm helping someone out with one of their arcs right now because they dangled a hook that was interesting to me, even if my own have been floating around, the bait on the hooks completely rancid and rotten by now. I doubt I'm the only person who's in that sort of situation.
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Social bonds are one of the strongest forces in human life. Yes, I think it's the odd sense of home.
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Now yes, things are at a lull. No one can deny that. But lulls don't get fixed by people sitting on their hands moping about it, they get fixed by people getting up and taking initiative.
What do you propose to fix them ? One does need a clear picture on what to do to begin with.
Even before I left, I was left with absolutely no clue on how to proceed. It was not just about being part of the PIE little private circle, it was about RP actually happening. It is very easy to tell that to others when you are in your self sufficient niche when most of the former aren't. When the former are the ones actually trying things here and there out of despair.
The only alternative I saw before making my decision to leave was to create a new character and get a new start. Creating something very mainstream to be sure to fit in the correct few surviving circles. When I saw that the only solution was to join PIE or any other few surviving RP closed circles, starting anew, it just killed the last flame I still had.
tl;dr : I find it a bit harsh to get told something like that by people actually being in the easy position. Tell us what is your magical plan for it to work and i'll get back ingame asap.
Edit : sorry if that came out a bit harsh. I'm so sick of having been told that again and again and again over the past years that it's a bit like the last straw for me. I mean, maybe people are not just complaining and waiting to be fed. Maybe they are complaining for a reason ?
There is no magical plan. There never has been and never will be. People want to believe there's one, that a thriving RP community is something that pops up out of smoke and air and pixie dust, but it isn't. It takes hard work and effort. Every RP community ever believes that RP is dying. This is not limited to EVE, and you will find the same thing whereever you go. You are sick of what I said, while I am sick of over a decade of reading "RP is dead" threads every few months in every single RP community I have ever been in. Many of which have had random RP as limited or more than EVE's. Indeed, even in a lull the Summit as a global channel still provides more daily random RP than empty streets in a city in a traditional MMO, and the IGS is an especially useful tool in providing a setting for roleplay that is devoid of the normally heavy restrictions imposed by timezones and busy RL schedules. I certainly get more RP in EVE right now than I do in any of the other MMOs I have focused on recently.
I have to pause here for a moment to expand on because it's a seriously significant thing: the IGS, not the Summit, is the tavern of EVE RP, superior even to taverns in most MMO RP communities in its capacity as a springboard for further interaction. Characters who post here express their desires, interests, and actions in a widely-accessible, permanently-visible medium, making every post a potential opening for those who wish to explore further discussion and development through use of external communication methods like mail, in-game conversations, or space activities. Random RP is ideally a starting point, rather than a goal in itself.
The fact is that despite Jace's wishes, being a door-to-door salesman is a required trait in being a roleplayer. Healthy roleplay is built on proaction, not reaction. If you don't have contacts or storylines for your character then you have to create them. You need to venture out and find friends (or enemies) and build those relations. You have to cast a line if you want to hook a fish. Make up reasons to interact with people you otherwise wouldn't, or create events to bring people together, and then build on those new connections. Watch the Summit, watch the IGS, watch what people say and do, and reel in when you find something interesting that you'd like to get deeper into. Once those connections are formed, you have a foundation on which to proceed moving forward. On the Amarr side of things, people like Odelya, Nauplius, and Lunarisse are an excellent example here: Odelya and Nauplius both served in the oppositional role, Odelya using IGS disputes as an excuse to create connections with and drag two otherwise unaffiliated roleplaying corporations into (violent) contact with each other (PIE and Stormcrows), and Nauplius working to provide content as an antagonist force to the point of creating his own corp so he could be war decced and launching his own towers so they can be shot at. Then Lunarisse going around being the diplomat gathering multiple different RP corps together and setting them off towards in-game space goals.
EVE is at a lull. But why is it at a lull? It's at a lull because CCP cut off the free food it was giving the RP community since launch. When CCP starts posting news and live events again, activity shoots through the roof (as seen spring last year). This demonstrates that these RPers are still around--they are just waiting for content that they can latch on to. This is because what creates RP is something to talk about, and EVE's RP community believes that CCP are the ones who should be providing this content. I don't think this is something that can or should be relied on moving forward; issues, topics, and content need to be generated by the RPers rather than the devs.
Also, Lyn: There is no private self-sustaining PIE RP circle. Very little internal RP happens; most of our alliance RP is done through space pew pew. Occasionally there's stuff between me and Aldrith and sometimes Mitara, and occasionally other PIE people show up at RP events, but for the most part my IC contacts lie outside of PIE. Despite Sami being a horribly withdrawn character, I've made sure to cultivate a wide net of IC connections which give me multiple options for RP both inside Amarr and out.
I think it should be noted, that I do understand the feeling of having all of your previous contacts and stories disappear and having no one else to turn to and no energy to rebuild it all. I've been there before, many many times, in EVE and in other RP communities. I've gotten drained, stressed, and encouraged to quit. But ultimately that unwillingness is my own doing; you get out what you put in, and if you've lost the energy to put in then you won't get much out. Usually a break is enough for me to recharge my batteries enough to dive in again after a few months and give it another go. Sometimes it isn't, and you decide that you're done for good. There isn't anything wrong with that. What never helps the community though is to bittervet about how things are bad and will never improve, as it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy where current players feel that it's pointless to put in work to improve things and so don't. One should always, always encourage initiative and agency. An experience with community leadership in another faltering RP community two years ago taught me just how much a few people can do when they have the energy and will, so I prefer to encourage people to think positively (though I can't deny that I get caught up in the bittervetting myself often enough, but it's something I know I should avoid).
And Jace, I apologize if you didn't intend for this to be an 'EVE RP is dying' thread. The question about what keeps us coming back is marred by the rest of the post being about how bad you believe things are, which isn't encouraging to those of us currently playing. In answer to what makes us come back, I'll link to a post I made on a similar topic on the official forums (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4617730#post4617730), which sums up my beliefs.
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Edit: I would like to retroactively apologize for being a dickhead below.
I think part of the disconnect between myself and others is the 'go out into space and RP' perspective. That has never been my primary style of RP - in any setting I have roleplayed in. I have always been an interpersonal roleplayer. Politics, friendships, and other elements along those lines. That style of roleplayer used to be able to thrive in EVE but does not seem to be able to anymore. I realize many EVE RPers view that kind of roleplaying as boring and pointless, but to me that is where the stories lay. Yes, I was in null back in the day and yes I was involved in faction warfare at various times. But those were always incidental things to keep me, the player, busy when there was not roleplaying going on. To me, orbiting someone and firing my guns is not roleplaying. I know it is for many people and I understand there are different approaches to roleplaying. But shooting at people and yelling in local is not RP to me.
I think more than anything, more than the amount of roleplayers, more than the people that are gone that I fucking miss like hell, more than CCP not doing much, I think that is the main disconnect I have with where the EVE RP community is at. For some people it is an improvement. They have an evil one to go hunt down, they have a few duels in-character. If that is what they are looking for them, gods bless them. But it just isn't my style of roleplaying. From my history of roleplaying it doesn't even feel like roleplaying at all. Obviously it is, but I just can't get interested in it.
And I really am sorry this turned into a trash EVE thread. It was not meant to be that way, but I understand how my post led it to being that way. I think I just miss people and my nostalgia is keeping me stilted, it is keeping me from being able to adapt to the new way of doing things because that is just not the kind of roleplayer I am. I'll probably edit this post down to nothing tomorrow when I read it again.
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I think part of the disconnect between myself and others is the 'go out into space and RP' perspective. That has never been my primary style of RP - in any setting I have roleplayed in. I have always been an interpersonal roleplayer. Politics, friendships, and other elements along those lines. That style of roleplayer used to be able to thrive in EVE but does not seem to be able to anymore.
I disagree that it cannot. That kind of roleplay is my primary in-game activity. Space activities are pretty far secondary for me right now due to burnout. I appreciate space activities a method of backing up my actual character, rather than as the full and complete avenue for exploring her character. Only rarely have in space issues had serious enough impact to cause major character development (most recently being the podding by Nauplius), most of Sami's development has come from straight conversational RP.
It's just that that development happens in private, between friends (term used loosely). Like I said, I see things like IGS and Summit as springboards rather than central RP mediums in their own right. They're fun for casual RP, but the real depth comes from the RP in close personal settings.
Space activities are important for realizing the character's actions as a capsuleer, and this is a part of RPing in the EVE universe. But I don't think most people here believe that interpersonal relations are not important. They are the most important for me, and comprise 90% of my in-game activities.
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Edit: I would like to retroactively apologize for being a dickhead below.
I have to disagree with your notion of the IGS being the 'tavern.' It does not at all serve that function. It is for sneering, shaming, peacocking, cynicism. Not for meeting people, not for interesting character interaction. And as far as corps? There is none for Caldari unless you want to head to null. There is none for Gallente unless you want to join the shell that Soter left, who they themselves admit they don't really RP anymore. There is only one pirate RP corp left in existence not including Coreli who is also 'RP-light' (read: none). And I suppose not including Blood Raiders/Sabik. I don't know much about that RP circle.
So the options that remain? Events. Everyone runs them on Saturdays which are unavailable to me every single week. And perhaps I have had bad luck with events the last year, but most of them that I have been to have also been the peacocking and cynicism of the IGS. Just in-person. I could open my own venue, but I do not have the time everyday to be logged in and moderating it and encouraging activity in it. The only active venues left are member-only ones, for the most part. Or they are the sort that only make sense for very specific characters to attend - to the point that it is virtually member-only.
So the solution to this is become a salesperson? Spam the IGS until everyone knows my name and thus by sheer odds someone will continue interaction outside of the IGS? Sorry, not going to do that. IGS is not the tavern of EVE. There isn't one, nor are there groups of players to join for many types of characters. Do I have the time to start my own corp and actively build it into something? No, I don't have the time for that. If I did, I would. Not that I think it would amount to anything in the current EVE atmosphere, but I would try it if I had the time.
So yes, I suppose this comes down to another 'poor me the people I know have left EVE' thread or 'I'm sick and tried of interacting with the same couple attention magnets' thread. And I realize that nothing I am saying is productive and thus it probably should not be said at all. But I think part of me thinks this is the way people want it and I just don't understand why.
Edit: And about other RP communities also complaining about it being dead like this. That is not my experience. In other settings I have been a part of the complaints are typically that 'good' RP is dying. Not that RP in its totality is dying. So yes, maybe someone might have to 'slum it.' But it's still an option. For me the other settings themselves became unbearable. I just have become utterly sick of fantasy settings. It wasn't the RP that made me leave, it was lack of interest in the content.
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I have to disagree with your notion of the IGS being the 'tavern.' It does not at all serve that function. It is for sneering, shaming, peacocking, cynicism. Not for meeting people, not for interesting character interaction.
If that's how you want to view it. I've had a few posts spiral off into interesting discussions over mail or in-game conversation, and I've found several threads very interesting to participate in in their own right (even if that's the minority).
Sneering, shaming, peacocking, and cynicism happen everywhere. If that's all you want to see then that's all you will see. *shrugs*
So the solution to this is become a salesperson? Spam the IGS until everyone knows my name and thus by sheer odds someone will continue interaction outside of the IGS?
Actually, the suggestion was to watch the IGS, find an interesting person/post, and strike up an interaction outside the IGS. Engaging with someone rather than hoping someone will latch on to you.
Sorry, not going to do that. IGS is not the tavern of EVE.
It is the public melting pot to which many different characters engage. That's the narrative purpose of the tavern setting--bringing disparate characters together into a common location from which plots and arcs can begin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouAllMeetInAnInn). The Summit functions in similar capacity, but it is limited by timezones and IRL scheduling and a tendency towards idle banter (where the IGS, by virtue of being a forum medium, encourages lengthy diatribes on topics of character interest, which therefore usually gives a bit more exposure to the character's internal beliefs).
And frankly, I get more meaningful interaction on the IGS than I have in traditional RP taverns. But then I've always hated tavern RP.
But I think part of me thinks this is the way people want it and I just don't understand why.
Honestly Jace, a part of me is thinking that this is the way you want it to be. I mean, you always talk about how you want more public random RP instead of private RP, yet you seem to discount a significant portion of the public random RP that EVE offers (IGS). I don't understand that.
Edit: And about other RP communities also complaining about it being dead like this. That is not my experience. In other settings I have been a part of the complaints are typically that 'good' RP is dying. Not that RP in its totality is dying.
Then perhaps I have the "luck" of going from dying RP community to dying RP community, because I always tend to find myself in RP communities that are sure that they are in their twilight days (year after year). Random RP is the thing that always goes first, leaving behind a handful of guilds filling a few niches that not everyone is interested in but everyone is part of anyway. Until the next expansion/content patch.
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Trigger warning: Blunt Morwen post ahead.
I'm seeing a whole lot of complaining and not a lot of solution-offering, Jace. I like you, man, but you're coming across to me as "I want this, this and this but I don't want to do anything for it and I want it now".
So weekend events don't work for your schedule. They work for most other people across a multitude of timezones, which is why they frequently get scheduled that way. Sucks to be you, I guess, but tell me exactly where this is stopping you from organizing something during the week when you supposedly ARE available? Most weeknights (USTZ) are pretty quiet because nobody is starting anything. I just told CC this earlier in a mail: if people want activity they need to get up off their asses and start something, anything, and say they're doing it. People are bored but they also are looking for things to do. If you build it they will fucking come. (Buckets. Pun intended.)
Certain inputs tend to result in certain outputs. This is why the Summit is frequently full of idle banter when it is active: people usually put in things for which the appropriate response is idle banter, and that is exactly what they get. But when people put in serious stuff, it can result in a very long, intricate and meaningful discussions that last for hours with multiple people chiming in and participating. It's not because there's a lack of things to RP about, it's because people often don't feel like making the effort to provide a 'prompt' that facilitates thoughtful conversations.
If you want to kickstart something, say in the Summit or OOC (or both) that you're going to go to X channel for drinks or whatever and ask if people are interested in tagging along. Usually people will respond positively and show up. Hell, the people who IDLE in those channels will probably participate once they see activity. It has ALWAYS been like that, even when I started out RPing. People idle because they want to see where there's activity and then make a decision to participate. Generate some fucking activity, say what you're doing and where, and people will be likely to show up. It is LITERALLY that fucking simple most of the time.
If you don't want to make the effort to start/plan something when you're around and have time, and would rather spend that time pissing and moaning about how terrible and dead it all is, fine. But please don't expect any sympathy or commiserations in the meantime. It's not fair to those of us who actually do try to generate content for other people, whether it is in chat channels or in space.
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As I said a couple times, I am aware that this is all coming across as whining. I shouldn't have even let the thread go down this road in the first place. Rant posts are never a good idea.
But yes, it is what it is. I need to accept that. Giving myself an hour to think about it, I think the reason why these kind of posts always come with criticism but not solutions is that we do not think there is a likely solution - these posts happen when the poster thinks the RP scene is beyond salvageability. We do not think it is a community that is able to be what we want it to, so all that comes out is toxic, useless frustration. There is no point in rants like that. I would go back and period all my posts out, but in this case I think that might be a bit of a dick move.
I just need to look at my signature more.
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I just need to look at my signature more.
(http://i.imgur.com/ShcFvc7.gif) :?:
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I just need to look at my signature more.
(http://i.imgur.com/ShcFvc7.gif) :?:
All I meant by that is that I find the little guy adorable and he can put me in a slightly better mood.
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we shall all watch together
(http://scducks.com/forum/images/smilies/campfire.gif)
edit: wait omg THAT MEANS HES BURNING SAVE HIIIIIM
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I would also like to apologize for attacking the community instead of merely venting my frustrations. There is a fine line between the two and I easily crossed it. I know some people are still very much fulfilled by the EVE RP community and I wish them all the best. To attack the community when others are enjoying it can come across as if you are attacking their enjoyment, as if they are somehow 'doing it wrong.' That obviously is not the case. I am usually fairly good at being stoic about these sort of things, but I suppose everyone makes a slip from time to time. I hope everyone who is enjoying themselves continues to do so without having to deal with others such as me when we snap.
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:Piles on the guilt: Shit man, I said I'd even pay 14.99USD so Jared was subbed so you could RP with that alt.
IDK, omg, think of a reason, ANY REASON, to talk to Ari with Jace then. Drop an evemail. start the process. IDC. Just don't turn into a peanut gallery armchair roleplayer who bitches about how miserable shit is that they're not even involved in anymore.
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:Piles on the guilt: Shit man, I said I'd even pay 14.99USD so Jared was subbed so you could RP with that alt.
IDK, omg, think of a reason, ANY REASON, to talk to Ari with Jace then. Drop an evemail. start the process. IDC. Just don't turn into a peanut gallery armchair roleplayer who bitches about how miserable shit is that they're not even involved in anymore.
Nah, I will not turn into that. This was my dickhead vent thread and it is out of my system. I do not know if I will stick with my sub or not, but either way I will still have lore discussions with people and such things on Backstage instead of becoming one of the bitters that just comes back here to try to present themselves as better than everyone else for leaving or some such nonsense. It is possible to leave and still be a productive member, as Silas has shown everyone.
Edit: I also think that part of my issue might be that I may be done with roleplaying in general. It has sort of become a default goal of mine in games, but even when I have found it I do not recall particularly enjoying it the last couple of years. Maybe it is just time for a different phase of my gaming life. In the little time I have to play games, I find myself playing racing games and other such things that are complete genre jumps. If I am in a creative mood I find myself writing rather than wanting to seek out roleplaying.
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Edit: I also think that part of my issue might be that I may be done with roleplaying in general. It has sort of become a default goal of mine in games, but even when I have found it I do not recall particularly enjoying it the last couple of years. Maybe it is just time for a different phase of my gaming life. In the little time I have to play games, I find myself playing racing games and other such things that are complete genre jumps. If I am in a creative mood I find myself writing rather than wanting to seek out roleplaying.
I know the feeling and have been there myself before.
At least for me, going on break for a few months/year or two and just focusing on non-RP activities was enough to rebuild that interest. Sometimes that's really rather necessary to revitalize our interest in things we previously enjoyed.
And honestly if you find more interest in writing then that's honestly probably better anyway, because if you can kindle that it leaves you with the potential of producing things that you can actually sell. I always find myself wanting to write but then dropping back to roleplaying because I really enjoy the spontaneousness of other people taking the roles of other characters.
And don't worry about it, no need to apologize. Everyone needs to vent. I'd be lying if I said I haven't done the same, often about the same subject despite what I've said in this thread, many times over, though usually to individual people rather than on forums. It helps to get it out of your system; catharsis and all that.
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If I may say something as a relatively new role player to the Eve-scape (or at least one that only needs to look back to recent memory,) I'm finding that like as most people have pointed out already that there is a whole lot of talking about Rp or lack thereof instead of constructive attempts to generate actual Rp. This however is only part of the problem in my mind. Apathetic veterans aside we have a few other serious (at least to me) problems.
First and foremost; I disagree with the notion that this community is both small and shrinking, coming from other Rp communities from other games I can easily say Eve has one of the largest group proclaimed role players (regardless of activity.) Secondly while of course these could be alts I've counted no less than 5 new faces in the past weeks, some who have already gotten into the more private/meaningful Rp channels (like LSB/Noir/etc. ) I feel like these newcomers are being discounted among the departure of some of the heavyweight veterans. These newcomers actually bring me to my final point.
It's plain insanity to act like what should be one large meshed community has been split into two. Blame aside, and all that nonsense, one sides official capacity is giving it a substantial edge in being the landing point for many new role players. Love it or hate it, the fact is simply that new players are being exposed to half the community much of the time, and the only way to fix that is the properly get the information where is needs to be. The ISG forums for many new players is the first place we all wind up.
Some of the more resourceful will find The Summit and OOC on our ownsome, and most events are rather successful if posted on ISG, but I think more diligent use of the ISG to advertise supposed public sites like Noir/Masque & and somehow even Summit could go a very long way in breaking down the looming bar on entry for many of us.
Finally it's no secret that many RP'ers like to RP with specific other RP'ers. But if you've got particular Rp taste and can't find it anywhere, don't complain. No one likes a picky eater. Learn to cook.
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Well, there's a good reason for the bittervet legions spending more time complaining than actually doing stuff. "Stuff" has already been done and it was good. Mostly. Other "stuff" was also done and it was terribad. Sometimes. Now, it's not that easy. There's very little left to do that can both be innovative and remain... well, not silly. This mostly leaves doing "stuff" that's already been done, but the second time around is never quite as good as the first. The third, fourth and fifth time it starts getting stale as fuck.
There's a fuckton of experience aggregated in the various veterans around here (I actually count myself as one of them, even though I'm winning Eve and came along later than the real old grumps) and it's starting to become very easy to recognize rehashing of old stuff or the inherent gnnerghh-that's-just-urrgh of most new ventures. There is an undeniable stagnation of both the game and the community and it's rather unavoidable when Eve moves at the current pace.
New game mechanics aren't really going to fix it. Adding a pirate militia function will be a fleeting salve upon the rash until it turns out to be no more invigorating than FW turned out to be. Same goes for just shuffling around game mechanics for warfare, fw, nullsec, w-space and what have you. They're not going to address the core of the problem, which is that character motivation and character progress relies on the universe shifting around them as much as they shift around the events of the universe.
The only real way to reinvigorate the veterans is to actually shake things up rather severely. Have the Minmatar Elders fuck off with half the Republic and ram a massive wedge between the Republic Remnant and the Federation. Have the State and Empire fall out, hell have a WAR. Huge political shift in the Empire as it shears down the middle between a new far more secular faction against slavery and the religious side, whatever. Similar things among pirates. Hell, kill off some factions/subfactions and create brand new ones.
Some major upheaval that allows older characters that have invested time and effort, been shaped and guided by New Eden, to face a new New Eden that demands action and either renewed or shifted allegiances in the new landscape that forms around these cataclysmic changes. We already have all the game mechanics for a proper sandbox. We just need to raze a few of the towers and castles we built so there's room for new battles and motivations. Take away the blankets we've covered ourselves with and gotten too comfy in to willingly shed, so we as characters are forced to go out and get new ones, probably by taking it from someone else.
This will also actually allow you to change your character and try something new without it being contrived and an obviously OOC thing to try new pastures, which is something that's always rubbed me the wrong way.
The actual difficulty for CCP is in reality rather low. Most of the work would be in writing the new PF, making it believable and new worldcrafting etc. Turn the militias into a four way battle instead of a two-way battle would take some work, but it's hardly insurmountable. Deleting a few factions and popping a few new ones in there with blank standings slates shouldn't exactly be too daunting either.
There's only so much that can be done by a roleplaying community when the framework that surrounds it remains rigid and stagnant, especially when the characters have been slotted nicely into a comfy niche and shifting it around frankly becomes both unrealistic and the other niches remaining the same as they've been for years anyway. Take away half the niches, create a few new ones and you'll see a roleplaying community that'll break out the heavy machinery to tear shit up and fill the craters with new content.
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For those still continuing to say that vets do not do anything, or try not to do anything, this (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5676.msg99394#msg99394) is just one of many examples that got no answers. Well I was not playing when I wrote that, and was really ready to try something again. How silly and naive of me.
So, maybe i'm actually doing it wrong or being too subtle every time I try to propose something, but every time I get zero, absolutely zero motivation from other people.
Be it when I was a newcomer and started my first RP corp with a friend, be it in the middle of my eve life when I started a second RP corp with the same friend, be it when I created my own channel for RP venues with barely one of two people showing up, or be it when I spent time to make room for RP 'npc' alts to help Laurentis with his Mantenault event, which incidentally proved to be rather nice even with almost no participation and ensuing things from people other than a few debates on the IGS related thread.
But more seriously, where the hell do you find those RPers ? 3 years ago it was easy to find them, there were many places and still a bunch of RP entities here and there and it was rather easy to actually reach out people. One year ago it was already hard to see anything. I honestly had no damn clue where all the RPers were. On the IGS ? Most of the time trolls or strawmen. On the Summit ? Please...
Sometimes I am not sure we speak about the same universe.
Oh well I guess i have never been a good seller and have no damn clue at social interaction.
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@Mizhara
See this is actually exactly what I'm talking about. But before I begin I just want to hedge the follow in a statement. That being, that this is in no way intended to be an individual critique of any specific player or group of players, but rather a critique of the mindset some members of this community may have. Of course I haven't met many of you and I'm sure you're awesome people.. OK! That being said, my point.
Mizhara touched on it in her post but I think this deserves some more attention. Namely the bored vets. Now maybe I've misread something along the way, but I don't think anyway has a problem with veterans who are simply "burnt out" on eve Rp. "Been there, Done that/him/her/all of the above." Call it what you want, it happens to everyone it's unavoidable and just like the cycle of life it ebbs and flows.
Maybe their waiting for their next big inspiration, maybe they just need a muse, someone who gets them excited to Rp again, or maybe like Mzhara said, they are waiting for something big in the world to change. Either way I don't think anyone has a problem with you chilling in the backseat waiting to shake things up again.
Here's the problem though: Backseat Driving. No one likes it, it's particularly annoying for the driver, and unless the driver is particularly inept (a situation where a little guidance helps one find the road helps) it serves to help no one and only frustrate everyone involved.
Now in case you couldn't follow the metaphor I'm talking about the "Pooh-Pooh'ing" from the peanut gallery. If you want to scoff and laugh while someone steers wildly making mince meat of their Rp, go ahead, somewhere private. But I can honestly tell you from first hand experience the blistering level of YDIW coming from people who then turn and complain "lack of content" is not only painfully ironic but also terrible for fostering an active and healthy community.
That is not to say there is no room for criticism but if don't even have a dog in the race, leave it to the people who actually Rp right now to decide what/who/where they wanna do it.
EDIT: @Lyn
You do realize the very first point in your linked post. Point 1). Makes it exclusive to returning players. Aka Veterans right?
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The short version is I agree with Vis. I already wrote the long version in another thread so go there if you care. I'm just stopping in to say something to Jace.
I have an idea I have been kicking around for awhile now and can see a place for you. What I would need from you is the following. Make a corp that is aligned/inspired by the NOH mega. Decide some things in game that you like doing. It seems your less interested in pvp so maybe explo/mission running type stuff. Recruit some people. Get in the game as an existant organization. Find some nice real estate near a highsec/lowsec border to set up shop. Do shit, whatever it is. If you can build an actual corp (not just some vanity corp) I can figure out some "hooks". This is not a short term project. I will need some time to put together connections and figure things out but I think you would like the results. If all that sounds like to much for you to handle than find someone else willing to do the mechanical work and just do the rp side of things.
If this sounds interesting at all feel free to mail me ingame man. Otherwise good luck out there.
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Make a corp that is aligned/inspired by the NOH mega.
PAGING JUROU YUAN, WOULD JUROU YUAN PLEASE DRAG HIS ASS TO TRANQUILITY
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Make a corp that is aligned/inspired by the NOH mega.
PAGING JUROU YUAN, WOULD JUROU YUAN PLEASE DRAG HIS ASS TO TRANQUILITY
Yeah, Jurou and I had discussed Practical bloc possibilities shortly before I left for the summer. There would be lovely irony of old Malcolm-era 'honorable' WHG people running a NOH/CBD thing.
And Utsu, I will think about it and get back to you. I'll be away from my computer for work and a seminar the next 48 hours or so barring five minutes here or there, but I will be back after that.
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@Mizra
I'm not sure I agree that changing the game mechanics wouldn't help enhance RP, such as making Pirate factions be able to fight each other as they do in Faction war (although apparently CCP continually shoots the idea down).
However, I really do like the idea of regions being able to declare war on one another. Odelya seems to be starting (or involved in) a civil war between the Khanid Kingdom and the Amarr Empire. It would be nice to be able to add a 'Regional Loyalty' function to the game, so one region could wage war on another region.
As far as pew pew in spaceships being RP, I find the two don't really go together. You can't type and fire your weapons at the same time. You pretty much have to be docked and typing in local.
I once played a text based game called Achaea. One of the advantages of a text based game is that it is pretty much all roleplay. There are no pretty pictures to distract you.
One of the things I liked about that game was you got to choose a 'war cry' and a 'Death cry' for your character. It was a sentence or a paragraph that you wrote before hand, and it would be activated when you went into battle or got killed.
So instead of being a Pirate or a Loyalist and typing 'Yarr! The Black Rabbits we be!" or "Death to Amarr!" as your quarry darts off to a safe spot, you would just hit 'War cry', or perhaps it would be automatically activated in local as soon as you aggress. The Death cry would be the same thing. At the moment you are podded, the game would say something like "Incoming transmission: The last words of the enemy ship are..."Long live the Empress!" or something like that.
I find that EVE doesn't really promote roleplay for some reason. In fact, a lot of players seem to look down on it. I don't understand why. Is it a lot of fun pretending that you are moving around the computer animated simulation of a spaceship, making and losing pretend money?
I think there is another limitation in that a lot of people (myself included :oops:) don't read up enough on the chronicles and the PF to engage in meaningful EVE RP. I had a Tavern channel once called 'Jita Cantina', and the only customer I had ended up blowing up part of the wall with his blaster pistol. I suppose it was fun and imaginative, but there was nothing else to go on really. No story line.
I wonder if something could be done with the 'walking in stations' animation which seems kind of useless ATM. Before the feature was added, I had imagined something like a boardroom where everyone could meet their corp-mates face to face. Apparently though, we are all alone and can't leave the room because of a contamination risk. If you were looking for a 'Sims' type of game, this would be the place for it.
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You don't find your character enforcing their will upon others to be RP? Facing or dealing out consequences for words and actions? I think Eve may very well be the only MMO out there that actually promote RP by marrying PF and game mechanics so tightly together. Whether they identify themselves as roleplayers or not, pretty much everyone out there can be interacted with and taken as an IC interaction.
Every damn player in Eve doing their thing fits within the universe and setting, be it the jita scammer, the nullsec empire builder, the FW pilot orbiting buttons or just trawling for kills, through RvB staging battles for the shits and giggles. They're all IC actions of a capsuleer doing their thing.
I have exactly zero need to interact with someone in local if I'm hunting or being hunted by them. I have a war cry button and it's F1 through F4, depending on my ship and setup. I've got a death cry too, which is spamming my pod escape. Until I see a fighter pilot or ship captain in our times yell "HAVE AT THEE, CUR!" over comms in real life, I'll stick to mine.
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I find that EVE doesn't really promote roleplay for some reason. In fact, a lot of players seem to look down on it. I don't understand why. Is it a lot of fun pretending that you are moving around the computer animated simulation of a spaceship, making and losing pretend money?
CCP and Eve have always had a weird stance on RP, quite opposed to other MMOs. Other MMOs usually try to include at least a bit of RP into their game, by making stuff like RP servers at a bare minimum, and some go as far as to make some animations a bit like dev actors in Eve. Not much mind you, but some include tools and RP props here and there.
And then you have Eve, which has never really claimed the RPG part of the MMORPG title, but at the same time created an incredibly deep lore that has no equal in the MMO milieu, except maybe for MMOs created out of famous licenses that already have a huge lore (Star Wars, Warhammer, etc). I think they never really tried to tie both their game with the universe, and considered their lore to be something besides, good stories illustrating their universe, but not really included in the life of their capsule players.
I think there is another limitation in that a lot of people (myself included :oops:) don't read up enough on the chronicles and the PF to engage in meaningful EVE RP. I had a Tavern channel once called 'Jita Cantina', and the only customer I had ended up blowing up part of the wall with his blaster pistol. I suppose it was fun and imaginative, but there was nothing else to go on really. No story line.
I didn't read them all. Maybe half of them (the ones that I got interested in), which is already something I guess, but over 6 years of time it's not much per day as a ratio actually.
I don't think chronicles now are the primary lore material, and certainly not the most accessible as well. Half of them are chronicles like "the precious tableau" which do barely make sense or are so obscure in their meaning, or just so specific that they will never really make you learn something about the universe.
Even that Black Mountain series was extremely obscure and over its 10 chronicles, you actually learn 90% of the stuff you would like to learn on SoCT in the 9th chronicle which is a documentary that actually explains. As for Sanctuary, you learn barely a thing about them even if they are like half of the story protagonists. The rest is... well, obscure. It's a nice series, but it's not very instructive.
The chronicles that are actually the most informative are the oldest ones actually, that were presented as summaries about sub factions or entities (CONCORD, etc). Those are real infodumps, but were very short since they were among the first writings about the eve universe. Now you just have to open the eve wiki to find all of that writing down here. And much more.
Actually I think that all the core articles on evelopedia are actually where you want to look at when you want to know more about PF. Chronicles are either a good complement (chained to the sky, that kind of chronicle), or just artistic licence (the precious tableau, etc), or somewhere in between.
I wonder if something could be done with the 'walking in stations' animation which seems kind of useless ATM. Before the feature was added, I had imagined something like a boardroom where everyone could meet their corp-mates face to face. Apparently though, we are all alone and can't leave the room because of a contamination risk. If you were looking for a 'Sims' type of game, this would be the place for it.
I'm pretty sure they gave up on WiS especially because their tech is not able to handle several avatars at the same place at a time.
EDIT: @Lyn
You do realize the very first point in your linked post. Point 1). Makes it exclusive to returning players. Aka Veterans right?
Wasn't the point you were all making that veterans do nothing to improve the situation and spend their time complaining ? Wasn't point 1) about making them moving their asses to actually do something ?
You don't find your character enforcing their will upon others to be RP? Facing or dealing out consequences for words and actions? I think Eve may very well be the only MMO out there that actually promote RP by marrying PF and game mechanics so tightly together. Whether they identify themselves as roleplayers or not, pretty much everyone out there can be interacted with and taken as an IC interaction.
Every damn player in Eve doing their thing fits within the universe and setting, be it the jita scammer, the nullsec empire builder, the FW pilot orbiting buttons or just trawling for kills, through RvB staging battles for the shits and giggles. They're all IC actions of a capsuleer doing their thing.
I have exactly zero need to interact with someone in local if I'm hunting or being hunted by them. I have a war cry button and it's F1 through F4, depending on my ship and setup. I've got a death cry too, which is spamming my pod escape. Until I see a fighter pilot or ship captain in our times yell "HAVE AT THEE, CUR!" over comms in real life, I'll stick to mine.
You find that shooting down capsuleers in space prove something or enforce your will upon them ? I have always had a difficult time with that notion I have to admit. Especially since none of our actions have any meaning on the universe of New Eden itself since CCP carefully kept us separated from the NPC lore. We spend our time shooting the hell out of each other in an enclosed environment.
Well, maybe I got tainted by my character views, or maybe the contrary, or maybe both, but what if you shoot someone down ? He will just come back and the only thing you will have achieved is to make the character angrier.
I don't find the link between words and action in this game, unless you are playing the hormone usual boast "i'm stronger than you and you will end up on my killboard yarr". How does shooting someone down makes you right about a point you made on the IGS, or where ever else ? That concept is completely alien to me.
The only situation were I can actually imagine that ingame actions can have meaning is when both parties of RPers are understanding each other with a clear cut storyline involved where people shoot down a tower or whatever, and make up stuff about what it implies for their crews, planets, factions, etc.
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It's not about being right. It's about consequence. Same reason one hunts down Nappy or wardec a corp until it's broke or disbanded. Take away their ability to enforce -their- will you've just gone infinitely deeper than any other MMO is capable of doing, in terms of RP. You restrict their movement, their wallets, their options (or they do the same to you) and in the end you can enforce your will upon them. You can free or capture slaves, as with Nappy. You can do all manner of things, all encapsulated neatly in the one button named "undock".
There's little impact we can have on New Eden itself, but we can have a damn big impact on each other. Through gameplay I've been part of breaking apart corporations and had corporations get broken in turn. I've participated in the quite literal exchange of a thousand Amarrians for a million slaves, with the resulting fallout.
If there's ever been something to drive RP in Eve, it's been that undock button. The chat channels are tangential at best.
You'll never be "right" in New Eden. There'll -always- be competing viewpoints that have relevance to someone and this isn't a debate simulator anyway. A good war is the natural extension of all diplomacy and debate and in Eve we have everything we need to go from disagreements through discourse and to a violent resolution of conflicts.
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Now in case you couldn't follow the metaphor I'm talking about the "Pooh-Pooh'ing" from the peanut gallery. If you want to scoff and laugh while someone steers wildly making mince meat of their Rp, go ahead, somewhere private. But I can honestly tell you from first hand experience the blistering level of YDIW coming from people who then turn and complain "lack of content" is not only painfully ironic but also terrible for fostering an active and healthy community.
Despite my griping in the first half of this thread, I have to agree with this. Being frustrated is one thing, but YDIW'ing everyone else left and right is beyond unhelpful and heads straight into asshattery. Helping people become aware of lore is one thing, but trying to actively tear down the roleplaying habits of others is something else. I may not like how certain people decide to roleplay or handle their characters, but so frackin' what? If they are enjoying themselves and getting meaningful RP out of it, it is nobody else's business. I do have to admit that the YDIW has been my most significant annoyance when it comes to the roleplaying of my alts that are more 'fun' characters and less 'srs bsnss' than Jace & Co.
And at the risk of using this thread as "Jace's self-awareness moments," I also think trying to be 'so srs' all the time with Jace and my other Caldari characters may also be part of what has stilted me. The amount of times I have enjoyed RPing with Jace and my other Caldari characters in the last couple years is much less than my other characters where I am less concerned about taking everything extremely seriously. That does not mean being overtly stupid or uncharacteristic with the other characters, but actually allowing myself to have characters that are less grimdark.
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It's not about being right. It's about consequence. Same reason one hunts down Nappy or wardec a corp until it's broke or disbanded. Take away their ability to enforce -their- will you've just gone infinitely deeper than any other MMO is capable of doing, in terms of RP. You restrict their movement, their wallets, their options (or they do the same to you) and in the end you can enforce your will upon them. You can free or capture slaves, as with Nappy. You can do all manner of things, all encapsulated neatly in the one button named "undock".
There's little impact we can have on New Eden itself, but we can have a damn big impact on each other. Through gameplay I've been part of breaking apart corporations and had corporations get broken in turn. I've participated in the quite literal exchange of a thousand Amarrians for a million slaves, with the resulting fallout.
If there's ever been something to drive RP in Eve, it's been that undock button. The chat channels are tangential at best.
You'll never be "right" in New Eden. There'll -always- be competing viewpoints that have relevance to someone and this isn't a debate simulator anyway. A good war is the natural extension of all diplomacy and debate and in Eve we have everything we need to go from disagreements through discourse and to a violent resolution of conflicts.
Yes, you said it yourself : it is encapsulated in the undock button. For that your enemy will actually have to undock. And for what ? Pew pewing in space in the name of your ideals ? That's exactly my point. It makes absolutely zero sense to go battle outside with guns when words are ten times more powerful, if not thousand times more powerful when it's about immortal demi gods we are speaking about.
It makes sense to go shoot someone like Nappy, indeed, if there is something else involved (slaves, FW planets, etc). However that's precisely because Nappy is actually creating that RP opportunities, taking the time to acquire slaves, and undock to create artificially created RP conflict. Don't tell me it isn't artificial, because it is, the same way it is in other MMOs. I can agree on the fact that you will always have an easier time to provide consequences heavy gameplay in Eve than in other MMOs, but eventually the stories we tell around those things are precisely artificial.
There is no such thing as a gameplay mechanic behind slavery. If Nappy takes out his slaves and his in his own individual wardec-able corp, it's to offer his opponents opportunities to fight, not for any other reason, much like I can do the same thing in other MMOs, though with more awkward tools.
The same can be said about the conflict between CVA and UK. UK came to fight CVA in Providence just because CVA said "we are amarrian and want to reclaim that place for great justice !". They used the tools the game offers (which, again, are very good tools to provide consequences) to tell their stories, but otherwise it would just have been a classic conflict between 2 alliances for a bit of land in nullsec, which is barely RP, just RP in the sense that it's about capsuleers fighting against other capsuleers for a piece of land and resources.
What I mean, is that yes, that undock button, corporations, resources, can be a huge stake in wars between non RP players, or more generally, ICly, a story about capsuleers against other capsuleers for isk. But as soon as you as a RPer start to introduce other reasons that are tied to non game mechanics like the NPC lore, your allegiance to some faction or ideology, you just make up stuff that has no tangential basis ingame other than "this tower is the beacon of the fight against slavery".
Well don't get me wrong, it's good and all, it provides RP, and conflict, but that's about entity RP, not character RP, or at least not directly. The real stuff happening to your character will happen either through your own writings and stories, or either through the IGS or ingame channels. And I think both are complementary, but my emphasis has always been on character RP since I don't see the point in playing an RP conflict in space when there is no character behind.
Also, nobody said that you have to be right or wrong about things in Eve. But eventually, my point is that if you have an IC argument with someone, you will start to break his corporation, his wallet, and whatever else down. So what ? How does that makes your character right ? How does it even prove his point ? The only thing where it becomes interesting, as I said above, is when some specific RP resources are made up and involved, like slaves, etc. Well yes, they are completely made up, and that's okay.
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There's nothing made up about several freighterloads of slaves. They're right there and an in-game asset. And again, it's not about making one side or the other "being right". It's about conflict between characters and groups of characters that are irreconcilable. Words are completely and utterly powerless when you have diametrically opposite ideologies clashing together. The RP comes to the inevitable conclusion when the two entities clash together and the issue is resolved when one bows before the might of the other, or one side becomes irrelevant through losing their space, their resources or will to fight on.
These are defining moments of victory and defeat that will affect your character, especially when your character invests this much time and effort into their cause, their motivations and goals. If you're nor fighting it yourself, you might be bankrolling an offensive or cranking out ships for a replacement program, effectively winning the war for your side. You might just be a scout or maybe an ambassador taking care of communication, whatever.
No matter how you swing it, it'll be a goal to strive for and either fail or succeed at and that's something that'll have a character impact. Just yammering on the IGS isn't exactly going to be a lifechanger or achieve anything.
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EDIT: @Lyn
You do realize the very first point in your linked post. Point 1). Makes it exclusive to returning players. Aka Veterans right?
Wasn't the point you were all making that veterans do nothing to improve the situation and spend their time complaining ? Wasn't point 1) about making them moving their asses to actually do something ?
Yeah, and seeing how you go no replies, promotes my point that they are not as active, not your point, that your single request somehow makes Veterans active.
For those still continuing to say that vets do not do anything, or try not to do anything, this (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5676.msg99394#msg99394) is just one of many examples that got no answers. Well I was not playing when I wrote that, and was really ready to try something again. How silly and naive of me.
This more or less..
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There's nothing made up about several freighterloads of slaves. They're right there and an in-game asset. And again, it's not about making one side or the other "being right". It's about conflict between characters and groups of characters that are irreconcilable. Words are completely and utterly powerless when you have diametrically opposite ideologies clashing together. The RP comes to the inevitable conclusion when the two entities clash together and the issue is resolved when one bows before the might of the other, or one side becomes irrelevant through losing their space, their resources or will to fight on.
These are defining moments of victory and defeat that will affect your character, especially when your character invests this much time and effort into their cause, their motivations and goals. If you're nor fighting it yourself, you might be bankrolling an offensive or cranking out ships for a replacement program, effectively winning the war for your side. You might just be a scout or maybe an ambassador taking care of communication, whatever.
No matter how you swing it, it'll be a goal to strive for and either fail or succeed at and that's something that'll have a character impact. Just yammering on the IGS isn't exactly going to be a lifechanger or achieve anything.
The freighters and slaves are not made up. Their usefulness, their purpose, and their source at times is completely made up. It's the same than in any other MMO, where you can buy props and valuable things and put them at stake for pure RP purposes, albeit more or less awkwardly since eve mechanics are of course a lot more oriented toward a gameplay providing meaningful consequences.
And again, I never said that it's about making one side or the other right. For a character however, proving that one is right is generally what the character will do. Well usually I think that when people believe in something that clashes with someone else's beliefs, that guy might uh... think he is right and the other one is wrong no ? That's what half of every conflict is about ingame.
You keep talking about entities with a lot of in space things at stake, but that's far from the only kind of conflict that happen in Eve.
Well you see, that's where I do not necessarily disagree with your resource centric view, but I think that there are other means to win a conflict than just crushing your opponent. That's one of the possible outcomes only. But some people just don't want to accept that. They do not want to accept that there are things that do not require anything to be at stake ingame ICly.
And yes, I have achieved fat least as much as on the IGS or on social venues than in space.
EDIT : I would even dare to add that actually doing things like Nappy ingame, or promoting in space conflict by bringing valuable things at stake with made up RP over them is actually a good way to keep your enemy fed and interested. Even if you beat him down, as long as the players behind will have fun, that will actually bring the opposite outcome and strengthen his will to continue, even by changing his tactics to limit his losses. That's actually great since it proves to be a virtuous circle where the more players participate in something and generate fun for both parties, the more they will be interested to keep it going ! But ICly it's soon to become a catastrophe. A bit like the eternal neverending FW or Sansha incursions. A total fail for all parties involved. ICly of course.
So, that's actually the good way to go OOCly (and the way I would always favor over any other one), but ICly, that's all but efficient and fighting head on is not always the best solution, unless you are sure to crush them so bad that you will disgust them to continue, break them down, strip them out of everything and maybe even make them unsub. Now then, ICly, you will have won against someone by achieving that. But is that really healthy OOCly on the long run ? Probably not.
EDIT: @Lyn
You do realize the very first point in your linked post. Point 1). Makes it exclusive to returning players. Aka Veterans right?
Wasn't the point you were all making that veterans do nothing to improve the situation and spend their time complaining ? Wasn't point 1) about making them moving their asses to actually do something ?
Yeah, and seeing how you go no replies, promotes my point that they are not as active, not your point, that your single request somehow makes Veterans active.
For those still continuing to say that vets do not do anything, or try not to do anything, this (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5676.msg99394#msg99394) is just one of many examples that got no answers. Well I was not playing when I wrote that, and was really ready to try something again. How silly and naive of me.
This more or less..
And since they are not active, do they complain that much about the state of RP ? Even here ? I maybe count one or two like that, but then ? You can add me to the lot if you really want to, but if you all say that there are so many RPers ingame to be found, aren't those one or two vets a bit like a drop in the ocean ?
I seriously don't understand you guys. On one hand you complain that veterans spend their time "whining about the state of RP ingame while doing nothing and that's because RP is at a lull", and then tell that there are plenty of RPers left to continue having a good source of RP material.
Make up your mind ?
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All RP is made up now, we have no GMs.
... nothing to add to that, really.
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A lot of really good posts in this thread. A ton of my grievances have been addressed by a lot of people already, though I'll quote out the points I really do enjoy first. My own points will come later, blah blah.
If you want to scoff and laugh while someone steers wildly making mince meat of their Rp, go ahead, somewhere private. But I can honestly tell you from first hand experience the blistering level of YDIW coming from people who then turn and complain "lack of content" is not only painfully ironic but also terrible for fostering an active and healthy community.
That is not to say there is no room for criticism but if don't even have a dog in the race, leave it to the people who actually Rp right now to decide what/who/where they wanna do it.
This, first but not foremost. I've seen time and time again older and more veteran members of this community (and in other MMO communities) picking apart some of the newer RPers in Summit for either something they simply got incorrectly or something that wasn't just feasible. I don't believe that it's our job as roleplayers to police everyone and tell them how awfully they have their own character incorrect. One example that sticks out to me: when Farsiris first attempted to speak in the Summit, he mentioned that he wasn't very wealthy as his parents were miners who were opposing ORE in the area. This, to me, sounded pleasant. Someone probed into how they were mining, and Farsiris mentioned something about Ventures.
Now, immediately, people started accusing him of either lying or being wrong about his own experiences without attempting to work with him to create any sort of welcoming atmosphere. He didn't say that his parents owned Ventures or even piloted them. It could have been a lend-lease program, they could have been crew... the list goes on and on. My point about all of this is that if we're to experience new roleplay and embrace new opportunities and assist new players further into the already massive community, for fucks sake give them a little wiggle room. I'm still in shambles from the time a small group of people systematically picked me apart for claiming I'd spent the little ISK I started with (5k) on expensive wiring for Charles' house. Now, with proper RP knowledge, I could have easily just said it was "expensive designer shit," because Quafe costs ISK. You know, the thing that Baseliners can work years and years for only to just get 10?
Morwen also hit the nail on the head.
People are bored but they also are looking for things to do. If you build it they will fucking come. (Buckets)
and
If you want to kickstart something, say in the Summit or OOC (or both) that you're going to go to X channel for drinks or whatever and ask if people are interested in tagging along. Usually people will respond positively and show up. Hell, the people who IDLE in those channels will probably participate once they see activity.
Nothing much to add to these aside from the fact I idle in several channels and, if someone happens to start something, I hop in. Most of the time I'm not actively looking for RP (due to in-game nonsense or otherwise).
I know I can't say much, given the fact I'd just fall into the category of "I WANT IT NOW BUT NOT NOW ENOUGH TO MAKE IT ON MY OWN." I am planning something, though. It probably won't be too successful, but I'm planning something none-the-less.
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EDIT: @Lyn
You do realize the very first point in your linked post. Point 1). Makes it exclusive to returning players. Aka Veterans right?
Wasn't the point you were all making that veterans do nothing to improve the situation and spend their time complaining ? Wasn't point 1) about making them moving their asses to actually do something ?
Yeah, and seeing how you go no replies, promotes my point that they are not as active, not your point, that your single request somehow makes Veterans active.
For those still continuing to say that vets do not do anything, or try not to do anything, this (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5676.msg99394#msg99394) is just one of many examples that got no answers. Well I was not playing when I wrote that, and was really ready to try something again. How silly and naive of me.
This more or less..
And since they are not active, do they complain that much about the state of RP ? Even here ? I maybe count one or two like that, but then ? You can add me to the lot if you really want to, but if you all say that there are so many RPers ingame to be found, aren't those one or two vets a bit like a drop in the ocean ?
I seriously don't understand you guys. On one hand you complain that veterans spend their time "whining about the state of RP ingame while doing nothing and that's because RP is at a lull", and then tell that there are plenty of RPers left to continue having a good source of RP material.
Make up your mind ?
You're missing the point Lyn. Veterans who complain about no activity while active, and inactive veterans are two different bodies entirely. The entire flesh of my post was supposed to highlight the two disparate groups.
If you are inactive (I.e. Not paying a sub) it is by definition impossible for you to Roleplay in EVE. Sure you could maybe get some stuff rolling in forums, no one is expecting you to maintain some sweeping arc when you can't even log in. Of course if these inactives complained about lack of content it would probably just strike everyone as odd....
The active veterans (I.e. Ones who still sub) are a completely different beast, if they complain about lack of content it is entirely in their power to content create themselves. These people (while few, mind you) come off ironically annoying and have basically no right to whine when they could simply do it themselves.
That being said, on the subject of YDIW irony. That sort of stuff coming from Either of these aforementioned groups is entirely toxic, ironic, and completely unhealthy. As far as I am concerned, you lost your right to meaningfully interact, critique, and mingle within the actual RP landscape when you stopped paying the subscription fee's. Who are you to spoil someone else's fun who's actually still playing the game. (This is obviously the Pooh-Pooh'ing UNSUBBED's) The Pooh-Pooh'ing subs on the other hand have a myriad of ways to interact (and alter the course) of RP in a meaningful/fun/non-disruptive way as they can actually take part in it. A couple of times I found myself volleying a series of questions towards someone, in the politest way possible to allow them reach a conclusion about some aspect of the world that had overlooked (Flying from bridge, how brain-scans work, something.)
The point is there are a myriad of other ways subbed players can help steer RP. All of them having the added benefit of actually getting you involved in the community again.
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While I do not have much to say about the 'larger' (strong quotes there, hardcore bunny ears with eye rolls) debate happening here, I do think people should always keep in mind the difference between YDIW mocking (often truly, truly vicious in attitude) and just 'that may not make sense, have you read this?" comments. People can absolutely be educated about PF in constructive ways. But in my experience this is best done OOCly. There is something particularly kneecapping to someone when their character is ICly ganged up on and decried as insane or moronic just because they got part of the PF wrong. I have had very few instances where the player in question is unhappy to get some information OOCly in a convo or mail.
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There are still so many RP bittervets left ingame ? I thought most of them already unsubbed...
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Come on Lyn, this is EVE.
If a good kneecapping is to be had, ANYONE will participate!
"Why are you flying into this random battle between 2 alliances you never even knew existed?"
"Because pew?"
... kinda like that.
edit: Also there's a difference between dissapointed sad vets who unsubbed and bittervets. As a rule, ibttervets generally do NOT unsub. Because being bitter is part pf the game at this point. ;)
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edit: Also there's a difference between dissapointed sad vets who unsubbed and bittervets. As a rule, ibttervets generally do NOT unsub. Because being bitter is part pf the game at this point. ;)
qft
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Ari saves the day. Thank you Ari :D
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I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
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I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
The easiest solution would be to put all bitter-vets into a home. Maybe all could congregate in some sort of social-club, maybe a channel where they could all talk.
Maybe you could advertise this channel, get some new blood in there, some old returning players. so the bitters, the retirees and the new blood could all kind of meet and converse and interact.
No idea what to call it tho.
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I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
The easiest solution would be to put all bitter-vets into a home. Maybe all could congregate in some sort of social-club, maybe a channel where they could all talk.
Maybe you could advertise this channel, get some new blood in there, some old returning players. so the bitters, the retirees and the new blood could all kind of meet and converse and interact.
No idea what to call it tho.
Obligatory: The Summit? :P
I think we already have places for this sort of thing, but as ever, the problem is getting people to stop focusing on the "bitter" part of bittervet and start doing the other half of it.
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the problem is getting people to stop focusing on the "bitter" part of bittervet and start doing the other half of it.
^^^^
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I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
Yes, there is truth in that.
Although we can't deny that it surely has faded a bit in the past years (not sure we count so many RP corps, entities, etc, around).
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I have never had to study a PF so hard before to get a handle on the EVE universe. The setting wasn't nearly as easy as - well, any other setting - because so much has been defined, so I can't blame anybody for jumping in and making mistakes. We should be those pilots willing to stop and explain why you got blapped, the nice ones. It took me the better half of a year and a half to get comfortable and feel like I know a little of what I'm talking about and I still have to have a second screen open when I can. In that sense, it's no different than piloting - which is a little intense, but certainly interesting and probably the draw? I can admit I was really worried at first about getting things right. Observing the Summit for more than a year has also sensitized me to the sorts of things Nobody Wants to Hear about. Heck, I don't want to hear about them either! (laugh) But I feel like having patience still, because I haven't been through the actual wringer yet.
I'm going to second that people who have been doing this for years, and are now bittervet (which is entirely understandable, I've been through that elsewhere) need to let newbros cover the same ground (especially when CCP is slow on the PF side of things, which I fully expect to be on and off). I was playing with someone recently that was super capable of handling exactly those feelings entirely IC, and it was on the warm side. It can be fun, or at least a real scene, to deal with someone younger and/or newer to capsuleering who isn't aware of just how often certain topics have been discussed within the Capsuleer minority, without outwardly belittling the effort at the same time. While I know full well as a player that everything has been discussed, Aedre doesn't particularly care that people have 'had conversations about a topic before' when certain things are important to him, and the reason he's out there.
A certain level of 'I don't want to talk about this again because ~history~' makes sense, but an OOC top-down refusal might actually be unrealistic from an IC perspective. Expect someone to want to know why you're so done; I think there's basically ways to roll any situation into an interesting interaction, but new faces are probably always going to mean dealing with new Capsuleers dealing with the situational stuff of the universe first, especially when coming into contact with other Capsuleers, which is fundamentally political a lot of the time (at least to square that away as not-an-issue), and then the more personal stuff once they get to know your character as a friend. Young people and new blood are bound to reinvent the wheel a little bit as they find themselves and how they fit into the world, I think. So frowning on that out of the gate is probably discouraging to people fresh to EVE RP. Frowning on people that never move on or are 'shit-disturbers' so to speak is maybe an entirely different topic...?
The flipside of this I suppose is RP newbros absorbing the fact that everything has already been thoroughly discussed among the more experienced Capsuleers for the moment, and approaching them with that in mind, potentially even as IC attitude is probably a good idea. The game (and Capsuleers) has been around just long enough that one can approach someone 'much older' with that in mind, rather than assaulting them with anything we might consider revolutionary - It's not. While it might not occur to every newbro inherently, I think planting the seed of that realization probably still is in the hands of bittervets at the end of the day, just like explaining a blap. The 'Send them an evemail and invite them to corp' attitude is still one of the better ways to handle newbies in-game, so it ought to work in the equally-complicated EVElore.
The RP aspect of the game has its own New Player Experience to worry about, and we're definitely not going to get any help with that... outside of incidentally.
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I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
Yes, there is truth in that.
Although we can't deny that it surely has faded a bit in the past years (not sure we count so many RP corps, entities, etc, around).
I don't know if that is actually true. The discussions on this forum seem to bring as many or more people than I remember them doing back on Chatsubo. The Summit is *definitely* more active than it was 4 years ago. The number of casually involved RPers is also higher than I remember. The number of FWers who casually invoke Amarr PF as justifications for their actions (and as smack talk) seems much higher.
It sounds to me like there was a real boom bust cycle 2-3 years back. So you had a ton of activity all at once, and then a massive burnout. Seems pretty clear that there is a *lot* more RP than there was this time two years ago now, but that there might not be as much as there was 3 years ago.
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I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
The easiest solution would be to put all bitter-vets into a home. Maybe all could congregate in some sort of social-club, maybe a channel where they could all talk.
Maybe you could advertise this channel, get some new blood in there, some old returning players. so the bitters, the retirees and the new blood could all kind of meet and converse and interact.
No idea what to call it tho.
As it happens, I already have a channel, originally created as a jest.
It is called "Intergalactic Nadir"
Current MOTD is:
"The Intergalactic Nadir
For Discussion of New Eden Politics in the Manner to which Capsuleers have become Accustomed.
You have reached the Bottom.
Vaun Erryk > with every spoken line another person despairs and choses oblivion over the continuing noise"
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Fine, you're all invited to the Shutaq estate. Faithful at this table, enjoy your dinner. Heathens at that table - don't mind those things that look like restraints, it's just for decoration.
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Fine, you're all invited to the Shutaq estate. Faithful at this table, enjoy your dinner. Heathens at that table - don't mind those things that look like restraints, it's just for decoration.
Heathen's table. (http://vimeo.com/m/75823914)
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Fine, you're all invited to the Shutaq estate. Faithful at this table, enjoy your dinner. Heathens at that table - don't mind those things that look like restraints, it's just for decoration.
Heathen's table. (http://vimeo.com/m/75823914)
Spoons? I think not.
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I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
Yes, there is truth in that.
Although we can't deny that it surely has faded a bit in the past years (not sure we count so many RP corps, entities, etc, around).
I don't know if that is actually true. The discussions on this forum seem to bring as many or more people than I remember them doing back on Chatsubo. The Summit is *definitely* more active than it was 4 years ago. The number of casually involved RPers is also higher than I remember. The number of FWers who casually invoke Amarr PF as justifications for their actions (and as smack talk) seems much higher.
It sounds to me like there was a real boom bust cycle 2-3 years back. So you had a ton of activity all at once, and then a massive burnout. Seems pretty clear that there is a *lot* more RP than there was this time two years ago now, but that there might not be as much as there was 3 years ago.
Well, taking the summit as an indicator of the... nevermind. :P
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lol.
The most fun I had RPing was in the Bunny Lounge. No lie.
How many people just CRINGED?! I wanna count!!
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lol.
The most fun I had RPing was in the Bunny Lounge. No lie.
How many people just CRINGED?! I wanna count!!
Didn't get to rp there although Luna's uncle wandered in once thinking it was a pet store.....
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Bunny Lounge? Try the Kitty Hub!
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I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
Yes, there is truth in that.
Although we can't deny that it surely has faded a bit in the past years (not sure we count so many RP corps, entities, etc, around).
I don't know if that is actually true. The discussions on this forum seem to bring as many or more people than I remember them doing back on Chatsubo. The Summit is *definitely* more active than it was 4 years ago. The number of casually involved RPers is also higher than I remember. The number of FWers who casually invoke Amarr PF as justifications for their actions (and as smack talk) seems much higher.
It sounds to me like there was a real boom bust cycle 2-3 years back. So you had a ton of activity all at once, and then a massive burnout. Seems pretty clear that there is a *lot* more RP than there was this time two years ago now, but that there might not be as much as there was 3 years ago.
Well, taking the summit as an indicator of the... nevermind. :P
Well, its a relatively objective metric compared to most of the other options. Most of the places more meaningful RP happens in don't get you that. You end up not asking whether RP is doing well, but rather whether specific cliques are doing well.
Your metric of number of RP corps is a more interesting one, but I don't really know how true the fewer now than there used to be line is. Just looking at Amarr: There are definitely more Amarr RP groups now than there were this time last year. Certainly more than 2 years ago. About the same number I remember from 4 years back, really. Maybe more.
The only times I remember significantly more activity is when there were major dev arcs like Tetrimon handing out content. And those times were always followed by bust cycles where the people who needed the dev interaction left after the events ended.
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You guys are actually paying attention in-game, so quick question. What's actually left on the Minmatar side of things? Heard EM dissolved so... I don't know, Gradient? Anything else left?
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You guys are actually paying attention in-game, so quick question. What's actually left on the Minmatar side of things? Heard EM dissolved so... I don't know, Gradient? Anything else left?
Gradient, Ushra'khan (ish. Should ask DeT. Haven't heard much from them since the Amarr attack. I imagine they've been busy due to the AT). There's also Clan Kantanga Caravan for Angel-aligned Thukker.
Beyond that I'm not sure.
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Hrr. That's pretty barebones. The sad part is that I suspect any new ventures would rather quickly die from member starvation.
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There are ways to ameliorate members starvation. Big one is making sure you have a corp with a mission that is sized correctly for the numbers you are getting.
I do think people need to quit denigrating the "big" plotlines like slaver vs freedom fighter/terrorist. Those big plotlines are extremely useful in providing the critical mass needed to get the smaller more unique plotlines going. Too many people seem to think that its an either/or sort of deal. IE people either do slavery, or they do something "more interesting."
One thing I have seen over and over in PIE are people who come in with really basic character concepts. Rah Rah Slaver! sorts of things. Or who come in not RPing at all. In a year, a good number of those players have developed more nuanced characters. Many in fact develop characters that have traits that make them leave PIE, even, to go off and form some small nitch RP group. Even this is a good thing (well not for PIE) for the community as a whole.
Point is. You need someone in faction with a nice stable position who is trumpeting the party line. That party line creates people who don't like that party line. From this you get conflict and new ideas about how to play a factions characters. So, if you want to rebuild Matari (or any other) RP, the place to start is almost certainly to pick a nice simple RP line that new players with basic lore understanding can handle. Then stick with it. Get a core group going and then the rest of the faction's RP should start fleshing itself out.
And yes, I know that is all easier said than done. :)
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You can perfectly do slavery and ultra mainstream lines and doing a good job at it. I mean, PIE does. Welp, PIE defines the standard anyway. :P
I think I end up saying this every time this comes up, but I cannot remember a time when people weren't talking about the good old days of RP as a thing of the past. I expect it would be instructive if you polled everyone talking in this thread about when exactly the good old days of RP were. I doubt there would be much overlap.
I think a lot of it is that after a certain amount of times the sorts of stories people come up with become old hat to anyone RPing for years. I know that happened to me a few years in. Things that seemed cool when you were just learning the ropes start seeming cliche and tired. Also, I notice that people stop finding it as easy to go out and make new friends once they have gotten established. This means that if the people you started RPing with leave, it is often hard to find new people. Seems to me that those two together is enough to create a steady supply of RP bittervets.
Yes, there is truth in that.
Although we can't deny that it surely has faded a bit in the past years (not sure we count so many RP corps, entities, etc, around).
I don't know if that is actually true. The discussions on this forum seem to bring as many or more people than I remember them doing back on Chatsubo. The Summit is *definitely* more active than it was 4 years ago. The number of casually involved RPers is also higher than I remember. The number of FWers who casually invoke Amarr PF as justifications for their actions (and as smack talk) seems much higher.
It sounds to me like there was a real boom bust cycle 2-3 years back. So you had a ton of activity all at once, and then a massive burnout. Seems pretty clear that there is a *lot* more RP than there was this time two years ago now, but that there might not be as much as there was 3 years ago.
Well, taking the summit as an indicator of the... nevermind. :P
Well, its a relatively objective metric compared to most of the other options. Most of the places more meaningful RP happens in don't get you that. You end up not asking whether RP is doing well, but rather whether specific cliques are doing well.
Your metric of number of RP corps is a more interesting one, but I don't really know how true the fewer now than there used to be line is. Just looking at Amarr: There are definitely more Amarr RP groups now than there were this time last year. Certainly more than 2 years ago. About the same number I remember from 4 years back, really. Maybe more.
The only times I remember significantly more activity is when there were major dev arcs like Tetrimon handing out content. And those times were always followed by bust cycles where the people who needed the dev interaction left after the events ended.
Probably yes. The Amarr groups have always thrived better in weird times compared to the others...
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I'm presently considering coming back, though probably not as Aria, and that eventuality is a hardware upgrade away if I decide to do it. (I'm currently typing on my non-Eve-capable laptop, which is also my only computer.)
For me, the allure is simple: there's nothing else out there that matches Eve's frankly ruthless level of personal freedom. The lore's threadbare and neglected, the RP-oriented factions and, especially, the "faction war" lack any real sense of agency or consequence, and DUST 514's roleplay has withered on the vine (one reason I haven't played much lately).
And yet, the drama the game is capable of generating is really quite remarkable.
Most games, including (and maybe especially) RPGs, come with thick safety glass that both protects players from harm and prevents us from doing much of it. Eve players are granted nigh-unheard of freedom: the freedom to lie, cheat, and steal as we see fit so long as we don't cross into the realm of the dreaded exploit.
That's freaking unique, and even if I don't make use of these tactics myself, I love that they can be used. An acquaintance recently implied that this is mostly because I like waving my E-peen, and maybe there's some truth to that, unkind as it is. I like that I can exist comfortably in a world where people can freely engage in what would be, in another context, bluntly criminal behavior.
The personal stories we weave here are the ones that are compelling. Probably when/if I get back into the game, that is the sort of angle I will be pursuing.
... probably with a different character (even if I hadn't been burning bridges, Aria's too tied into the politics of the setting by half. Though I must admit that all those years of skill training are a daunting thing to contemplate repeating).
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Irreversible neural damage. Brain fried. Retained the skillpoints, brand new person. It'd be a bit silly and you'd spend some time shedding the old baggage before the new character was properly established, but it's an option. Years of SP is a serious pain in the arse to lose.
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Irreversible neural damage. Brain fried. Retained the skillpoints, brand new person. It'd be a bit silly and you'd spend some time shedding the old baggage before the new character was properly established, but it's an option. Years of SP is a serious pain in the arse to lose.
I believe someone on this very forum warned me, quite reasonably, that a few folks would be rolling their eyes if I re-imported my char.
There may be a way to handle it with grace and delicacy. I'll think more about it when/if I get closer to doing something about it.
Edit:
On further consideration, I can think of a couple practical ways. Still, it'll likely be a while: I have pesky things like licensing requirements and malpractice insurance that get priority.
Also, food.
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Really? I'd think anyone with a history with you would also be old enough in the game to appreciate the difference quite a few years of SP makes. That's just... sort of rude, as far as I'm concerned.
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Eh. It was less a criticism or warning and more a statement of fact.
That said, this is a setting in which clonejacking is a real, canonical thing. Related concepts are legion. There's a lot I could do; the question is, what can I do without regretting it. There's not much that would be reversible.
Regardless, I'd actually been more or less tired of the Aria persona for a long time-- motivating the wee psychopath was increasingly a chore. Perhaps a clean-ish break is both possible and desirable.
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Just throwing in the obligatory "oh my god starting SP over is horrifying." I have biomassed many characters over the last seven years and it has bitten me in the ass many times.
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I'd always been afraid to bring up clonejacking bits for reasons, even though it is in my char. history. Someone always seems to find a way to point out all the WRONG parts of it, even though the attempt was ultimately a failure in Arista's case.
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Clonejacking RP can be fun, as long as other people play along with it.
I remember having a hoot with Aldrith some years back during an arc where Morwen had to borrow someone else's skin for a few days. xD
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Ah, yes. The forced gropings.
...we should find a way to tell Mitara about that IC sometime.
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Ah, yes. The forced gropings.
...we should find a way to tell Mitara about that IC sometime.
I was more thinking of Morwen actually trying to play the part of someone else in the Gate until Aldrith tried messaging her and her datapad gave it away. >_>
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Sidenote, anyone else find it funny that the thingymajig we all use because sci-fi and stuff (back when it was first used) are now for all intents and purposes perfectly mundane real life tech? We need to upgrade. I am hereby introducing... err, a thing an alt of mine used years ago: The Pearl.
A small pearl that can either be integrated into jewelry, clothing or just carried around in a pocket or whatever. When voice activated or tapped twice it projects a small adaptable holographic interface allowing for either a small touch-enabled screen or a larger screen in your field of view you can interact with either through touch, gesture or voice. Those of us with ocular implants can choose to use this external option or simply get a "HUD" style view with no external display. Full integration with implant technology exists, allowing for sub-vocal control.
Honestly, I think we're way past external peripherals anyway in New Eden. We've got the tech to internalize all these things as capsuleers, only using such tools if we need to show someone else things.
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Sidenote, anyone else find it funny that the thingymajig we all use because sci-fi and stuff (back when it was first used) are now for all intents and purposes perfectly mundane real life tech?
:?:
you mean like, in an in-person rp channel, someone goes
/me types on her datadoodad
and then a comment appears on the IGS, or a different IC channel, like "the summit" ?
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Eh. It was less a criticism or warning and more a statement of fact.
That said, this is a setting in which clonejacking is a real, canonical thing. Related concepts are legion. There's a lot I could do; the question is, what can I do without regretting it. There's not much that would be reversible.
Regardless, I'd actually been more or less tired of the Aria persona for a long time-- motivating the wee psychopath was increasingly a chore. Perhaps a clean-ish break is both possible and desirable.
It could be the other way... Someone else in Aria's capsule, body, and gear. Completely clonejacked.
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Honestly, I think we're way past external peripherals anyway in New Eden. We've got the tech to internalize all these things as capsuleers, only using such tools if we need to show someone else things.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Datapad suggests you are very wrong about us being 'past' such things. :P
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I meant as capsuleers that can afford the most outlandish of replacements for basic consumer tech, similar to the special editions mentioned in that very article. (Which by the way basically describes a smartphone for all intents and purposes. You'd think they'd get a little further than that this many thousands of years into the future.)
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Eh. It was less a criticism or warning and more a statement of fact.
That said, this is a setting in which clonejacking is a real, canonical thing. Related concepts are legion. There's a lot I could do; the question is, what can I do without regretting it. There's not much that would be reversible.
Regardless, I'd actually been more or less tired of the Aria persona for a long time-- motivating the wee psychopath was increasingly a chore. Perhaps a clean-ish break is both possible and desirable.
It could be the other way... Someone else in Aria's capsule, body, and gear. Completely clonejacked.
That is, in fact, precisely the plan. The Aria Jenneth infomorph has wandered off elsewhere; the Aria Jenneth identity, with its remaining assets, is effectively vacant property waiting for its owner to return (unlikely) or for someone else to move in.
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I meant as capsuleers that can afford the most outlandish of replacements for basic consumer tech, similar to the special editions mentioned in that very article. (Which by the way basically describes a smartphone for all intents and purposes. You'd think they'd get a little further than that this many thousands of years into the future.)
Some RPers have tried to go 'further than that' in the past and got absolutely shit on by everyone else for creating tech that is not in PF.
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Honestly, I think we're way past external peripherals anyway in New Eden. We've got the tech to internalize all these things as capsuleers, only using such tools if we need to show someone else things.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Datapad suggests you are very wrong about us being 'past' such things. :P
I consider the Neocom to be basically an internal implant, seeing as you have access to it even when outside the pod. Datapads I'd see being basically laptops, but at the size of a modern cellphone, with holographic screens and keyboards. And probably also neural linkups for implants for people who'd rather do it all in their head (implants though would probably be for just rich people, most normal people probably wouldn't be getting implants for their daily lives, it's invasive and just not necessary).
Even with implants for the technology though I can't imagine using them to be the standard way of interacting with information medium, beyond communication and perhaps quick searches and locators (like GPS). It's too distant from the biologically natural way of interacting with tools. Maybe for heavily cyberneticized or otherwise very pro-transhumanism people it might be more natural because it's something they want to engage in, as well as for handicapped people who have no ability to interact with physical peripherals, but for normal people I don't see it going out of style. For the most part the limbs are a much more precise and controllable medium than the mind, and there's a lot more stability in having your work on an external platform. The mind is too easily distracted by errant thoughts and perceptions.
Just because something is theoretically possible doesn't mean it's desirable or useful.
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Okay, while I am sort of in favor of this kind of thing simply due to the sheer horror of dropping all that SP, how exactly would that work neurologically? The clone comes out of the treedee fleshwerkz printer partly as a copy of the old body (variables DNA doesn't account for, like scars, body mass, fitness etc) and partly from DNA cloning as I understand these things. The brain is a fairly complex organ where we're partly determined by DNA (the base model sans life experience) and partly by the experiences we've had. In a straight up cloning and infomorph imprint, these things match.
In a clonejack though, you only get half the ingredients, the infomorph. How does that infomorph manage to settle into a completely different neural architecture without demolishing and rebuilding it to fit, or morphing the infomorph to fit the current domicile? The former would have significant impact on the clone's viability as all our brains are uniquely "trained" to perform different tasks in a particular body while the latter would change the infomorph into... something that wouldn't be the infomorph to begin with?
Are we waving the magic space wand or can this actually be explained with a bit of fuzzy technology?
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More or less my thoughts in more words, Samira.
The 'ooh I can touch it' factor is pretty important to a lot of people, and not something that's likely to go away just because it isn't 'needed' anymore.
Morwen communicates to the Summit or other comms channels when she is out and about by subvocalization or something that outwardly would, I suppose, equate to thought-casting. She doesn't use cameras or camera drones these days (why? that's what RP is for), and generally connects only via audio connection, if that.
Datapads or other physical Neocom-linked devices are for actual work. Holointerfaces with haptic feedback (shamelessly stolen from Mass Effect, just minus the finger-implants) too.
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Holointerfaces with haptic feedback (shamelessly stolen from Mass Effect, just minus the finger-implants) too.
Just throwing in a side-note that these are useful as hell when writing fiction.
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Okay, while I am sort of in favor of this kind of thing simply due to the sheer horror of dropping all that SP, how exactly would that work neurologically? The clone comes out of the treedee fleshwerkz printer partly as a copy of the old body (variables DNA doesn't account for, like scars, body mass, fitness etc) and partly from DNA cloning as I understand these things. The brain is a fairly complex organ where we're partly determined by DNA (the base model sans life experience) and partly by the experiences we've had. In a straight up cloning and infomorph imprint, these things match.
In a clonejack though, you only get half the ingredients, the infomorph. How does that infomorph manage to settle into a completely different neural architecture without demolishing and rebuilding it to fit, or morphing the infomorph to fit the current domicile? The former would have significant impact on the clone's viability as all our brains are uniquely "trained" to perform different tasks in a particular body while the latter would change the infomorph into... something that wouldn't be the infomorph to begin with?
Are we waving the magic space wand or can this actually be explained with a bit of fuzzy technology?
In order for it to work it'd require some kind of physical interaction with the cloning facility to get one of "your" brains into the body. While the brains themselves are just blank grey matter before the transfer, their shape and size is specifically based off of earlier brain scans. The molecular receptors are also linked to that person's burning scanner, so there's no way of getting access to the mind transfer unless you're using their pod or have managed to steal the fluid router (as, due to quantum entanglement, it's only ever a one-to-one quantum pair and thus you can't highjack the transmission). So clonejacking would require either finding someone with a similar shape and size (and then steal their pod/fluid router), or somehow getting your people in to the facility to sabotage the clone itself, implementing a base brain matter with your own size and shape and linked to your own burn scanner. Rather extensive work needed.
Hell, the easiest thing would really just be creating a clone in your own facility, linked to your own burning scanner, that looks like the person you're copying, which you yourself then clone into in your own facility. Then you'd have to find some way of getting all the legal stuff changed so that you can take over that person's identity, and find some way of ending or otherwise incapacitating the person you're copying.
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That's actually a much better solution indeed, Sam. The difference between rubber hose hacking and building a Beowulf cluster, curse this forum's lack of an XKCD reference bot. Of course, then comes the trouble with DNA (we shed enough samples of it through any given day that it'd be real hard not to give them out to every person we meet) and other bio identification.
Hrr, clonejacks are troublesome creatures to get workin'.
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I don't remember the exact details of how we handled it back then given the utter and complete lack of any sort of PF on cloning at the time beyond the article and the scattered references here or there.
The exact details are pretty irrelevant in the end, imo; I don't think it's an episode any of the participants would be willing to talk about openly with anyone who wasn't part of it, so it may as well not have happened as far as the rest of the cluster is concerned. ;)
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It's all rather complicated and certainly not a way of keeping your skillpoints either, since the skillpoints are kind of part of the brain. If you transfer yourself into someone else's body, it's your mind in their body--meaning your skillpoints, not theirs.
So all in all, clonejacking is really complicated to get right and doesn't offer the key benefit we're looking for here (keeping skillpoints). At least if we're considering it from the IC perspective rather than OOC here.
TBH though, you don't -need- a lot of skillpoints to play the game. There's nothing wrong with just starting a new character, it doesn't take that long to get them to a level capable of playing the game at a decent level.
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I really can't agree there. The ability to fly every T2 and T3 Cruiser of just one single race (and most T2s of other sizes) with perfect fitting skills etc is a humongous investment and a significant loss no matter how you turn it. I've set up a few new characters in my time and even with two years of training (I'm looking at Evemon right now) that two year old has several extreme shortcomings that can only be fixed in a timespan of years.
You just can't get that sort of adaptability combined with good performance without a LOT of sp.
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As someone who has still not recovered from some biomasses, starting over is terrible. Unless all you want to focus on is small gang roams, it is just awful. Granted, my frustration has been extended due to hiatuses and the like, but it is just frustrating.
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As someone who only has one and a half years of training (or less, as I've gone several months leaving it empty), I really can't see it. I'm at the point where I feel like I'm training just for the sake of training, and am already and have for awhile been at the place I need to be able to do everything in-game that I enjoy doing.
*shrugs*
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... and am already and have for awhile been at the place I need to be able to do everything in-game that I enjoy doing.
*shrugs*
I think this is the key part. For the people that enjoy doing a bit of everything, it is a very long haul.
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Yeah, you can't exactly say that everyone should be happy if they have your skillset. Years of training and enjoying high adaptability is important to some of us.
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I do a bit of everything, though. I do frigate pvp, cruiser pvp, could do battlecruiser and battleship pvp but it's not really a thing in FW, t4 missions, invention and manufacturing, planetary industry, and exploration. Right now I'm just working on expanding my t2 ship options, but I don't consider those essential to playing the game and hardly ever use them. *shrugs*
I guess I just see my abilities as already pretty broad, so it's hard to imagine what another few years of skillpoints would achieve.
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While they're not essential (what is really?) they're incredibly nice to have once you've grown used to them. Particularly if you have the income to sustain it. The difference between T1 and T2 ships is humongous.
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Mizhara:
I believe it is discussed somewhere that clone brains are, themselves, artificial: a sort of bioelectrically-active gel that can be imprinted into a particular brain structure as needed. I forget where; it's been nearly a year.
Regardless, the clonejack is a verified "thing that happens." See, e.g., One Man Too Many (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/one-man-too-many/)." The details are mostly important in working out the nature of a person who could gain such access: the options range from a fairly conventional identity thief (the implications of which are horrifying) to an organized crime or governmental agent or client of same.
Samira:
Sadly, I have a taste for pretty toys such as T3 cruisers, and the skillset to back them up. Training back to the point of being able to go roaming around nullsec with an all-aspect explorer Tengu (It probes! It fights! It hacks! It hides!) would take a while.
In fleets, I favor acting as scout and/or Ewar, and I've pretty much completed training in that role. One of the very first skills I ever took to 5 was cloaking. It took a month, but I've really never looked back.
The road was a long one. I'm a little disinclined to repeat it.
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Mizhara:
I believe it is discussed somewhere that clone brains are, themselves, artificial: a sort of bioelectrically-active gel that can be imprinted into a particular brain structure as needed. I forget where; it's been nearly a year.
Regardless, the clonejack is a verified "thing that happens." See, e.g., One Man Too Many (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/one-man-too-many/)." The details are mostly important in working out the nature of a person who could gain such access: the options range from a fairly conventional identity thief (the implications of which are horrifying) to an organized crime or governmental agent or client of same.
That would be the Cloning scientific article, which is what I was referring to in my posts.
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/scientific-articles/cloning/
The shape and quantity of the artificial brain matter is based on earlier brain scans, and the molecular receptors are quantum linked to the burn scanner in the owner's pod. So the process of clonejacking by hijacking transmission and transferring into one of the clones in their facility would be very difficult, requiring direct sabotage of the clone to swap out the brain matter for something matching your own and quantum linking the receptors to your own scanner.
The example of the chronicle you linked is most likely what I was referring to as the easier method in my post: copying a person's appearance as one of your own clones and masquerading as them, rather than cloning into one of their clones. In the One Man Too Many chronicle, the original person is still very much alive and kicking.
Source explicitly states that one can change their clones to look like anything, even another race and gender, so simply making a clone that appears like someone else is really the easiest way of going about it.
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I would expect that kind of thief to be easy to detect, with brain patents/biochips or even brain unique patterns imprinted into the clone itself as a certification of one's own identity. Not very hard to do.
I meant as capsuleers that can afford the most outlandish of replacements for basic consumer tech, similar to the special editions mentioned in that very article. (Which by the way basically describes a smartphone for all intents and purposes. You'd think they'd get a little further than that this many thousands of years into the future.)
Some RPers have tried to go 'further than that' in the past and got absolutely shit on by everyone else for creating tech that is not in PF.
It's always a difficult issue... It depends a lot of the tech and its implications, I guess. The same way that the bigger the scale of the thing your world build, the bigger the chance for people to react negatively to it.
More or less put simply, it's always best to find the most harmless concepts and especially the concepts and ideas that do not really step directly on someone's toes.
When in doubt anyway, always better to ask before. Unless you want to keep it secret, which becomes problematic...
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Source explicitly states that one can change their clones to look like anything, even another race and gender, so simply making a clone that appears like someone else is really the easiest way of going about it.
Perhaps it is a perspective thing, but this has seems to have even more interesting possibilities as far as development goes for me - having to handle the other person being out there somewhere.
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More or less put simply, it's always best to find the most harmless concepts and especially the concepts and ideas that do not really step directly on someone's toes.
In the case I am thinking of it affected absolutely nobody else and was just a huge case people YDIWing them.
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Now that is incredibly interesting, Aria. It also heavily torpedoes a metric fuckton of stuff I've written over the years on neurology and augmentation. Shit. Welp, the non-Sansha networking just went down the crapper, but that's not too much of a loss given that it's been in stasis for a very long time anyway.
Back to winning Eve and fantasizing about rawring all the slavers I go.
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What is it about Ari and/or her history that requires such work to explain a change of direction? Where is she and where do you want her to go?
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Restored from a backup.
Backup made by Unknown Party (not necessarily by Aria, or with her knowledge), for Unknown Reasons, at an Unspecified Point in Time.
Also, memory editing. A capsuleer brain scan can be held as data, and examined by psychologists (reference to this in the amarr epic arc missions). If it can be held as data, then flip a few 0's to 1's and so forth.
Ta-da. Use all your skillpoints, with a PF-accurate mode of resurrection, and an initial Quest - find the identity of the Unknown Party and their Reasons.
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Core question is whether due to something going wrong you could keep skillbook learned abilities while losing personality and personal memories.
I think the answer has to be yes from a basic practical point of view. Otherwise there is no way to explain character transfers from one player to another IC.
Could even lump it into capsuleer dementia rather than going the clonejacking route.
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Nanites.
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Space Magic.
You spelled it wrong.
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(http://theymightbegazebos.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/aliens.png)
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Core question is whether due to something going wrong you could keep skillbook learned abilities while losing personality and personal memories.
I think the answer has to be yes from a basic practical point of view. Otherwise there is no way to explain character transfers from one player to another IC.
It's worth noting that there are plenty of real life examples of brain damage doing tremendously weird things to people. Personalities and opinions changing dramatically, even though memories that would have formed personality traits or opinions were left intact. People gaining new habits or compulsions, sometimes even things they are horrified by but cannot prevent themselves from doing. Personal memories being wiped while learned skills (speaking secondary languages, mechanical skills) etc were left intact.