Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Nicoletta Mithra on 02 Jul 2012, 03:52
-
Topic split from 'Where have all the slavers gone? (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3112.msg52361#msg52361)':
Graelyn, then how do you explain the (recent?) trend toward Matari mysticism?
[...]
[...]
Also: It might have to do with the fact that Amarrian religion is, as a monotheism, quite close to the abrahamic religions? Maybe people have a problem with monotheism nowadays, but not so much with polytheistic/animistic paganism? It meight explain why Matari shamanism (I don't think mysticism fits there, that much) is en vogue.
[...]
[...]
And FWIW, Nico, while not all mystics are shamanistic, all shamanists are mystics. I won't do the Wikipedia thing here, but essentially shamans are supposed to be people who can bridge between the spirit world and "our" world, acting as go-betweens for everybody else. That's pretty mystical, and something that frustrates me about Minmatar RP. Which also sort of explains why Minmatar haven't gotten all "my Lord, my Lord, why have you forsaken us?" when they go through the Day of Darkness.
I'd beg to differ. True, Shamanism has this thing with the spirit world and the shaman as a go-in-between it and the worldly realm through altered states of consciousness, and this is similar to certain aspects if mysticism. But certainly Shamanism is not the same as mysticism, which has at it's heart the pursuit to attain communion, identity or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. So, while techniques might be similar, aims are quite different: Shamanic travels to the spirit lands have a practical purpose (e.g. healing) and not the enlightenment of the shaman and his communion with the ultimate reality of the divine.
Also, mysticism is, typically, closely associated with a well developed, institutionalized religion that has a well developed theology in a society with a huge amount of labor division and/or technical know-how, which frees time, time that's necessary to pursue mystical rather than practical aims. (Examples are ample: Sufism and Islam, Rhineland mysticism or Hesychasm and Christianity, Zen and Buddhism, Kabbalah and Judaism...) That's usually conditions Shamanism doesn't fullfill.
So, I'd venture the claim that most mystics are practitioners of a non-shamanic religion and shamans are only rarely mystics, though one doesn't preclude the other.
Just to end the debate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
[...] I don't see how giving wikipedia links ends a debate: I read both of them and neither of the articles states explicitly how one relates to the other. I think the articles support my view - others might disagree. Also, wikipedia isn't the holy grail of knowledge. [...]
I took the liberty to excise what imho doesn't pertain to the topic at hand here.
-
A. Is there a matter for discussion here?
B. It sounds as though there are assumptions and expectations about Minmatar shamanism that I'm essentially unaware of. Could someone maybe make a summary for those of us who play this stuff fairly canonically, so we can catch up with what others have been doing? I might still say "Nah, IC I'd roll my eyes at that and think you were off being all New Age and making up a framework that suits your preferences... which is a normal thing for people to do, so I'll assume, IC, that that's what you're doing".
-
Mata, can you describe what you mean by "play this stuff fairly canonically"? I'd guess that that could mean different things to different people.
-
Canon uses "mystics" and "shamans" essentially interchangeably:
Mystics
The Vherokior have always seemed a bit odd to the other Minmatar tribes - doubly so in regard to those Vherokior with mystical inclinations. Vherokior shamans are both revered and feared by the Minmatar. They possess insights that can be of great help to people, but these same insights can also grant them great powers.
The Vherokior male is small in stock, but nimble and quick footed. They possess an easy charm and are quite affable. While the tribal tattoo tradition is something shared by all Minmatar, the Vherokior male shamans have taken it to new heights. The mystical nature of the Voluval ritual, where the inner soul and karma of the person is revealed through a body tattoo, is exclusively handled by Vherokior shamans and the secrets of the rituals are only known to them.
The Voluval was developed by Vherokior mystics during their time wandering the Greater Sobaki Desert. [2] When the Vherokior emerged from the desert around five thousand years ago and began traveling in small caravans amongst the other tribes, the Voluval spread with them. Tattoos were already such an important part of Tribal life that the practice caught on quickly. Population pressures on Matar soon saw the introduction of banishment with certain, rare, bad marks.
During the Amarr rule of the Minmatar, all cultural tattoos were banned, and the secrets of the Voluval were thought lost. When the Amarr yoke had been finally been thrown off, tattoos were one of the first things to be returned to their place of cultural importance. Even before the formation of the Republic, Vherokior mystics announced that they had held on to the knowledge of the Voluval all through their long subjugation. [1] In a culture striving to re-establish its identity and tribal roots, the resurrected ritual achieved an even greater importance.
Now, in a curious parallel to how the ritual initially spread, Vherokior mystics make regular trips to both the Federation and the Great Wildlands, in an effort to include the Gallente-Minmatar and the Thukker in the practice. In the Republic, many returning Starkmanir and Nefantar have also shown an inclination to fit in by undergoing the ritual, even those that hold on to their Amarr faith. While normally undergone in adolescence, exceptions are being made regularly as the Republic opens its arms to its returning people.
Should I keep going? The EVElopedia article on the Voluval (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Voluval) summarises most of what we know about shamans. Additional snippets suggest that shamans are haruspices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspex) ("Psychomancy, it was called. They could tell things from machine sounds, working them like the entrails of a shaman." Chronicle: Rust Creeps (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rust_Creeps_%28Chronicle%29)) and that they engage in "meditation" ("Before we make our attempt at capturing Logut Akell, the Vherokior shsaman [sic, from reference] I was referring to earlier, we need to find him. He is currently meditating somewhere in Eram, but I haven't been able to track him down. If you didn't know, this meditation process of the Vherokior shamans can take months or even years, and frankly I'd rather not wait that long." Mission briefing: Shaman Secrets 3/5 (http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Shaman_Secrets_%283_of_5%29)).
-
What puzzles me is the reference to Karma there.
Does it mean that Minmatar believe in reincarnation?
Karmic Wheel?
If so, would not those beliefs be pretty much in step with the Amarrian religions weight of Sin, which would insinuate that the Minmatar religion could have been integrated into the Amarrian one more easily because of its similarities.
Of course this is a separate issue, but still...
-
Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't "Karma" be more in line with Intaki Ida?
Matari Shamanism seems to be more closely related to Native American faiths with animistic spirits of all living things and a spiritual realm that can be breached by Shamans/Mystics. It doesn't seem to really mesh well with the idea of Karma and Dharma from Hinduism.
-
Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't "Karma" be more in line with Intaki Ida?
In my understanding, this is correct; Karma is very much an Intaki 'thing' with regards to religion/faiths - my own toon is flavored slightly based on the consept. It's a large theme, though while it is, nothing states that no Matari faith or shamanic belief would incorporate it. It just seems less likely to me, really.
Not a very 'matari-like' idea, if you follow.
-
The tidbits posted by Matariki kind of insinuate that the Minmatari religion is just a hodgepodge of different things probably put together by CCP with the guideline of 'put all kinds if spiritual stuffs there cuz they're like these spiritual people'.
Meaning that there is no canon faith in the PF for the Minmatar, just examples of traditions and a general hand waving towards New Age hippie spiritualism.
The reincarnation stuffs are Real in New Eden when it comes to Reborn, but as I understand it is more of a technique than a Karmic thing.
Reincarnation is a lifestyle choice instead of a religion where you have faith in something intangible.
-
I think Karma means simply something like "fate" here. My humble opinion is, that CCP just threw in some New Age fluff words to make all this appear more karmic and mystical... So I concur with Lallara there.
The Matari seem, though, have a strong belief in their destiny and fate and that the Voluval reveals it.
It seems to me, that the Vherokior shamans are the one that are equated with being mystics, not Matari shamans in general. As the PF says in the flavour text about them from char creation (see above in Matariki's post).
Nothing that they do, though, seems to point to them as adherents to a mystical theology or philosophy, that is one that revolves around the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God or something alike.
So, I've been doing some research in dictionaries. I've got found two different meaning for 'mystic', first and foremost the following one:
mystic (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mystic?view=uk)
Pronunciation:
/ˈmɪstɪk/
noun
a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect:
the poetry of the 16th-century Spanish mystic, St John of the Cross
This meaning - most often in fewer words - is also found in wiktionary, Cambridge Dictionaries Online and Irivng Hexham's Concise Dictionary of Religion.
Another one I've found is the following:
mystic (http://www.yourdictionary.com/mystic)
[...]
A mystic is someone who has mysterious or occultish powers. (noun)
An example of mystic is a clairvoyant.
Similarly found at www.wordsmyth.net and UrbanDictionary, though here the ability of clairvoyance seems to figure prominently: A mystic is something akin to a psychic, here.
In this quite wide meaning, the Vherokior shamans are probably mystics as they possess mysterious and occultish powers. It also fits the description of Matari shamans being 'psychomancers'. This is a very wide use of the word 'mystic' though, one that caters in my opinion more to above mentioned New Age fluff than to anything else.
This said, I maintain that Matari shamans aren't mystics in the sense of being practitioners of mysticism. I also maintain that one shouldn't call them mystics - especially if not referring specifically to the Vherokior shamans - for clarities sake. As for the Vherokior, it's in the PF so one can say little against it, but that they are New Agey fluff mystics, imho. ;P
Also, I think that the reborn thing with the Intaki isn't merely a life style choice. It also seems to be something religious.
-
My original point, by the way, that led to the tangent (and pretend-yelling from Hatele) was pretty simple. The mysticism of the Matari, or whatever term you prefer because I'm being really generic here, is not interesting to me. I think it is a valid part of PF and, as long as you don't play a character who actually has wizard properties and such, I can't possibly have a legitimate complaint in that respect.
It's just not fun for me because I like the gritty hard-edged far-future science fiction stuff in EVE. This is precisely why I've moved away from Matari RP, because as much as I like the "rustpunk" aesthetic, the Voluval is a great example of what I personally don't like: completely valid RP that meets canonical PF but not my personal taste.
-
That is the strange thing...
There is nothing supernatural in New Eden (or the real world).
Why would there be in the Republic?
With training and genetics in New Eden you can have preternatural capabilities for people, but never supernatural.
Kind of like the extremes of body control represented in sci-fi by the Bene Gesserit in Dune, which is based on body control exhibited by yogi in India.
I don't think the interesting thing here is discussing whether the Vherokior shamans are clairvoyant, the interesting part is the question on how they became extremely sagacious through the ages.
How did that fact affect the culture of the Minmatar before Day of Darkness?
Can anyone reach that same level of cultured intuition through training?
Is there a skill book about it?
Were they in on the Nefantar conspiracy on preserving the Starkmanir?
How about the preservation of the whole Minmatar culture by the same people?
Are they the willing tools of the Elders?
Have they always been?
Are they benign?
Is Voluval just a way of controlling the Minmatar population and assigning them to different castes by the whims of an elite?
Do old Holders possess similar skills?
-
OOC, of course the Voluval is some kind of science, wrapped up in social ritual.
Process
The Voluval uses a special type of tattooing process, consisting of two injections. One is an injection of tyrosine, the amino acid precursor to melanin, and it is administered to the heart. The second injection, delivered to the ventral root near the base of the spinal nerve, is a formula known only to Vherokior mystics, and is a secret still closely guarded by them even today. [2]
A few decades ago, the Quafe company investigated the possibility of using a similar form of tattooing as part of an enhanced marketing strategy. The Quafe company sent a small team of scientists to the Greater Sobaki Desert to gather flora and fauna. They claimed great results using acetylcholine as a neurotransmitter, along with oxytocin, calcitonin, and vasoactive intestinal peptide hormones[3] extracted from Sobaki Water-Root. Unable to identify any further ingredients, nor willing to commit any more resources to the venture, the project was shut down. There is evidence to suggest the Amarr may have figured out the formula, but it is circumstantial at best. [4]
Vherokior mystics have since confirmed the inclusion of Sobaki Water-Root in the Voluval formula, saying it is simply one tooth of the key to unlock one's Voluval tattoo. They believe the formula of the second injection directs the subconscious to manipulate the melanin from the first injection into forming a permanent tattoo. It is for this reason Vherokior mystics insist proper mental preparation is a necessary part of the Voluval. [3]
I started writing up Mata's (downright cynical) personal take on what the Voluval really is, but that stuff will come out--or not--in the main storyline in time. (Spending her formative time in Re-Awakened made her very sensitive to anything that might spread either an infection or an inoculation.) The Voluval seems scientifically plausible-enough as what it appears to be: an output reading of your genetic and other biochemical proclivities. Think of it as the personality equivalent of a pregnancy stick test, with more than just plus and minus outputs available.
And a long quotation from a recent chronicle touching on the Minmatar spiritual practice of dreamwalking, as carried over into the VR world of pod pilots:
The dreamwalker resented the intrusion of these others in the Dream. They had come with the Tornado and he resented the swift-sailing wing of a ship for it. Perhaps unreasonably. But he resented the others. They did not even feel the sting of dreamshock when they failed. How could they possibly try their utmost without it? Some of the dreamwalkers said these others felt something akin to it. Something of their own making. He doubted it. They were not dreamwalkers even if they walked in the Dream.
Yet they did walk in the Dream and they could be the cause of pain if he did not take care. His charge today was a Zealot. Like the others in the Slaver’s Fang dreamclan, he specialized in the ships and weapons of the Great Enemy. In the Dream, he knew nothing else but his duty to fly the golden ships to the best of his ability. That and the dreamshock should he fail in that duty. His fellows were in a variety of Amarr ships, in close assault formation. Some Crusaders, a few Retributions and several Zealots. Off in the distance, the others. In their Tornados. They seemed to sail lazily through space, like birds from a dimly remembered other time.
The Shamans were speaking. The pattern for the battle was laid out in their chanting and it signalled a charge on the foe. The Crusaders seemed to skip ahead, angling to avoid the direct line of approach. The rest of the ships followed, taking wider angles than their smaller and much faster brothers. The enemy were approaching, which meant they were using autocannons, but they would try to turn this into a tail-chase. The Crusaders reported making scramble on several targets, shutting down their microwarpdrives. Several reported being counter-scrambled. Interesting. A few also reported webbing and tracking-disruption. The dreamwalker mentally smiled. Foolishness. The mixed electronic warfare across the enemy fleet was a good idea in principle, but to reveal the hand by using it all on the Crusaders indicated panic. The others would not win this fight.
********
[snip]
********
Heavy assaults pounding his back and belly, immune system failing, nanobots going inert for lack of sugar, what was that light?
Adrenaline rush as he spat light from his fingers, swatting stinging bugs, something burning in his vision, heart pumping as energy is injected.
Victory ululating in his mind, the Dream unfolding, birds falling out of the sky, his legs burning from the microwarpdrive.
Gods-damn that moron to the hells and back, pressure of light and electromagnetism on his skin, the egg sitting there, comrades taking a vengeance for him with spears of plasma.
-
When I read that Dreamwalker bit a few months (?) ago, that really annoyed me (in the sense of what I wrote above) and was part of what clinched it for me, telling me I needed to move on and find something new.
-
When I read that Dreamwalker bit a few months (?) ago, that really annoyed me (in the sense of what I wrote above) and was part of what clinched it for me, telling me I needed to move on and find something new.
I totally understand that not everything does it for everyone, but I'm curious that that was the clincher for you. To me this is an approach to fleet comms, combined with the VR body-ship interface that I've always assumed. What didn't work for you?
-
Having done some PF-quoting, here are some points about how I play Minmatar ritual and transcendence stuff. Usual warning about it being a big cluster, and the tribes and clans not necessarily doing things alike.
I think it's about social hacks and body hacks.
I think some of it is intentional--I can see Sebiestor, in particular, applying scientific method to their tinkering with ways to get the right experience--and a lot of it is people winging it based on things that have worked before.
I think there are huge differences in how much practitioners think is "real" and how much they think it's symbolic (although the experience is real). Those differences parallel... let's say "the theology preached in neighbourhood churches vs the theology taught in seminaries back when seminaries were allowed free thought".
To generalise, shamans IRL are typically schizotypal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder). They're the "half-crazy" people somewhere on the continuum to schizophrenia: they can function in the specific social niche of spirit-guide and mediator for the world of myth and story/sea of dreams/unconscious. I imagine EVE shamans are like this, too, with most of them having "being a shaman" as a necessary lifestyle determined by their personal wiring and demons and focused by clan recognition and training, rather than it being a chosen day job for any likely child.
That said, I do think there are probably shamans or people in shaman-like roles out there who fit more into the day-job model, some of them even being a lot like a blend of the contemporary psychiatrist/clinical psychologist/counsellor. There will be some tension about what constitutes a "proper" shaman. "Proper" half-crazy shamans will be brought in for important rituals, while you might see a tamer one for clan pastoral care. Maybe.
There will also be con-artists passing as shamans.
I think EVE shamans use and distribute pharmacological assistance as required to help achieve the appropriate state. I'm not sure that there's always a big distinction between shamans and local drug suppliers.
I think that for some clans there's a big focus on experiencing your altered states in the appropriate social setting, at the appropriate time. You might reach for those states using fasting, pain, drug-use, dancing into a trance, sex, etc. Despite the emphasis on doing things in a ritual context at the right place and time, some of these are way open to abuse, by insiders as well as by outlander "tourists".
I think there's a lot of use of metaphor and anthropomorphism in Matari religion. People keep the gods they need, and some of the gods they want. Groups and individuals might adopt new gods depending on experience: I definitely imagine people coming back from deployment with feelings one way or the other about their regimental gods. But gods can be small and specialised--like the one who requires rubber chickens to be placed in server rooms--as well as large.
In the wider sense--beyond just shamans and mysticism--I play Mata's sub-tribe's religion as being based around ancestors and erendati. Also rites of passage, roles, values and rituals.
Ancestors are, in one sense, your genetic forebears, and there are rites around death and the spirit journey, and elements of "What advice do you think Aunt Yana would give you in this situation?". In another sense, "ancestors", for Mata, refers to "the gene-wisdom": the things that humans have been selected and programmed for many millennia to do.
"Erendati" are, for Mata's sub-tribe, the spirits of things and essences, anthropomorphised as appropriate. There will be an erenda for "fire", "the void", "the river past the house", "that house", "breaking stalemated negotiations (http://matarikirain.blogspot.co.nz/2011/02/maar.html)", etc. No, I don't have a pantheon: you bring these up as you find you need them.
I think most Matari religion has been made up since the Great Rebellion. Don't tell anyone, though.
I don't judge wider Matari spirituality as good or bad. In many ways it's primarily "useful": as social bonding, for rites of passage, as solace and structure for grieving, as guidance when making the decisions of life and community. It can, like most systems, be abused and abusive. It also helps provide roles and defaults for a people who bear a lot of scars and could do with some life scripts that are reasonably effective.
For me it's tied to a sense of yielding some level of control over your self and your body to your group--being willing to blur your boundaries for belonging, and being willing to sacrifice self for the survival of your kin-group--that I, IRL, consider scary-dangerous. (Just thought I'd throw that in there since I've been idly doing a bit of a post mortem lately about my roleplay with Mata. There are some elements of the way I play Matari religion that I find congenial, and others that are definitely not.)
-
It seems to me, that the Vherokior shamans are the one that are equated with being mystics, not Matari shamans in general.
Indeed, but do you have any evidence for Minmatar shamans who are not Vherokior males? If you do, I'd really like to see it.
(Most people I know play that there are shamans who aren't Vherokior men, but as far as I can tell that's non-canonical. Also, even if you have your own shamans it sounds like you need a Vherokior to handle the serum and mystical spirit guide aspects of a Voluval.)
Nothing that they do, though, seems to point to them as adherents to a mystical theology or philosophy, that is one that revolves around the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God or something alike.
If there's a unifying feature of Matari religion I see it as the pursuit of religious ecstasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy). For me, this fits with both the mystical and the shamanistic angles. It's supported by the Raafa-Kon nightclubs and sacred sex (The Empyrean Age), and I'd argue also by the journey-hunger-drug divining of knowledge and the way forward (Chronicle: Methods of Torture - The Minmatar (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=15-01-07) - which I believe is about Vherokior, too, given the names and the reference to the Sobaki sands). And other snippets, but my PF-enthusiasm is fading.
It also fits the description of Matari shamans being 'psychomancers'.
I'm not quite sure that we're interpreting that quotation the same way. The shamans read entrails. The psychomancers read ship sounds. (It's not the best name for it...)
This said, I maintain that Matari shamans aren't mystics in the sense of being practitioners of mysticism. I also maintain that one shouldn't call them mystics - especially if not referring specifically to the Vherokior shamans - for clarities sake. As for the Vherokior, it's in the PF so one can say little against it, but that they are New Agey fluff mystics, imho. ;P
That comment does make me wonder, again, about your view of Minmatar shamans. Where does the New Age fluff come in?
I think they are mystics, but I also don't really care what labels other people want to apply to them. If you find it uncomfortable that's no big deal to me. Just curious.
-
While there isn't direct evidence, I would think that in a civilization of trillions of people, there are probably non-Vherokior shamans. Unless it's simply that spiritual leaders who aren't Vherokior are called something else?
Edit: To expand, given teh shambles that a lot of PF is, I hesitate any time I see CCP use an absolute (ie, all shamans are Vherokior Males).
-
While there isn't direct evidence, I would think that in a civilization of trillions of people, there are probably non-Vherokior shamans. Unless it's simply that spiritual leaders who aren't Vherokior are called something else?
Edit: To expand, given teh shambles that a lot of PF is, I hesitate any time I see CCP use an absolute (ie, all shamans are Vherokior Males).
You slipped an edit in there between me reading and starting my reply.
Tell me about this hesitation... ;)
I think that every time we encounter "shaman" in PF it's in the context of "Vherokior male". One new chronicle could change that, of course, but if that is indeed the current situation in PF I'm inclined to treat it as significant.
We have it pretty clearly that it's Vherokior shamans who spread the Voluval even today (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Voluval#Historical_Background).
I think it's highly likely that in a population of probably-trillions there are schizotypes who are not Vherokior. Do they get called shamans and slotted into the shaman role? Maybe. What's the role of a shaman in daily life? Do you want them around regularly, or do you invite them in only when you have a ritual that needs their involvement, and breathe a sigh of relief when you wave them farewell, laden with gifts and fees?
I think you could make cases for various scenarios. I think most of those cases are currently un-canonical (which tends to be a space where EVE RPers will go if there's a good story to tell), and some of them would be anti-canonical (which is where we start going "Dude, you're flying in a pod, or you biomass when you lose a ship, or we think the character is nutzo, okay?").
-
Can you expand a little on 'un-canonical' and 'anti-canonical'?
My understanding of what you mean is things not covered in PF (So they aren't actual canon, but might be subject to player interpretation) and things with are actually directly countered by PF (Cylons etc).
-
Can you expand a little on 'un-canonical' and 'anti-canonical'?
My understanding of what you mean is things not covered in PF (So they aren't actual canon, but might be subject to player interpretation) and things with are actually directly countered by PF (Cylons etc).
Pretty much. Happy to adopt alternative terms if they'd make things clearer.
-
Well, it is clearer now that there is more context. Previously I'd taken 'un-canonical' to mean essentially 'anti-canonical'.
So, it comes more to how you want the discussion framed: Are we talking about strictly things that have some kind of PF behind them, or are we having a discussion that involved things PF doesn't cover, or doesn't cover clearly?
-
We were talking about mysticism and shamans. Nicoletta suggested that PF specifically equated Vherokior shamans with being mystics, leaving open the possibility that other Matari shamans weren't. I asked if there was any PF support for non-Vherokior shamans, at the same time noting in brackets that most people I knew played that there were shamans who weren't Vherokior men, but that that seemed to be a player-made thing without grounding in PF. You opined, based on the sheer numbers involved, that there were probably non-Vherokior shamans. That puts you in the category of "Most people I know" who play that there are non-Vherokior shamans, but didn't seem to help the discussion along any. I wondered if there was something I'd missed.
-
Well, I appreciate you explaining, even if it didn't move the discussion along much. I'm afraid it wasn't entirely clear to me what the issue under discussion was until your explanation, so I appreciate it.
-
My take on 'non-Vherokior male shamanism'; schizotypes that operate a similar 'role' (although as pointed out it's debatable what we want that role to be) from different bloodlines. I think that the word 'shaman' when it comes to EVE roleplay is just not a very useful term in general because of semantics. It seems unlikely that only male Vherokior can be schizotyal and spiritual. And by unlikely I mean 'no'.
A new term could be helpful. For instance, if we're taking 'shaman' to mean 'keeper of the voluval' which is a bit of a stretch, then I can happily agree that, yes, that secret is kept by the Vherokior. But in that case, where does that leave spiritualists which "bridge the spiritual realm" and act as mentors in their clan (yet aren't Vhero men)?
These people will almost surely play a fairly distinctive role in their clan - exactly what they'd be doing if we're taking the literal real world meaning of 'Shaman'. As pointed out, we could infer that the word has a different meaning in New Eden. But that leaves players playing shamans who aren't 'shamans' but something else.
@Casi: There wasn't yelling! Or even fake-yelling, really. Honestly my point came down to: if you don't like spiritualism in your Roleplay, don't play it - but if you want to play a Sebiestor that actually explores their roots, still consider that a viable option. My confusion was more along the lines with you seeming to (from my position) avoid Minmatar themed roleplay in general (even on Casi) because of this fact. There are plenty of Matari who don't touch the subject IC which is a perfectly valid way of playing Minmatar. It just kind of looks like you concluded at some point that playing a Minmatar that explored Sebiestor culture would invariably mean a lot of spiritual RP, which I don't think is really necessary.
Side-note: Halete's clan consulted with a Vherokior Shaman, who also oversaw their Voluval ceremonies. By extension, being Vherokior, he himself was not a member of the clan.
-
Indeed, but do you have any evidence for Minmatar shamans who are not Vherokior males? If you do, I'd really like to see it.
(Most people I know play that there are shamans who aren't Vherokior men, but as far as I can tell that's non-canonical. Also, even if you have your own shamans it sounds like you need a Vherokior to handle the serum and mystical spirit guide aspects of a Voluval.)
Well, I'd have no problem with them being the only ones, but I also believe that one shouldn't RP against the huge majority of RPers. Also, PF doesn't state either that there are no non-Vherokior shamans.
If there's a unifying feature of Matari religion I see it as the pursuit of religious ecstasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy). For me, this fits with both the mystical and the shamanistic angles. It's supported by the Raafa-Kon nightclubs and sacred sex (The Empyrean Age), and I'd argue also by the journey-hunger-drug divining of knowledge and the way forward (Chronicle: Methods of Torture - The Minmatar (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=15-01-07) - which I believe is about Vherokior, too, given the names and the reference to the Sobaki sands). And other snippets, but my PF-enthusiasm is fading.
While religious ecstasy fits with both shamanism and mysticism, it doesn't follow from that that both are one and the same, nor that Vherokior shamans are mystics in the sense of being practitioners of mysticism. religious ecstasy is a technique that might be employed for different aims. All those snippets show, imho, that while those shamans employ techniques that (some and by far not all) practitioners of mysticism use, they use it for quite different aims than the PoM.
I'm not quite sure that we're interpreting that quotation the same way. The shamans read entrails. The psychomancers read ship sounds. (It's not the best name for it...)
Misread that. Still, my point holds tight: Those are things shamans do, not a practitioner of mysticism. The aim of mysticism isn't super-/preter-/natural knowledge of the future.
That comment does make me wonder, again, about your view of Minmatar shamans. Where does the New Age fluff come in?
in the rather generalizing use of terms like 'mystics', for example. A practice typical for New Age fluffism.
I think they are mystics, but I also don't really care what labels other people want to apply to them. If you find it uncomfortable that's no big deal to me. Just curious.
The question would then be: What do you think is a mystic?
As I said: If you mean by mystic someone who has mysterious or occultish powers, yes, the Vherokior shamans are mystics.
You're not talking about a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, then, though. To me, it seems to be confusing to call someone a mystic who has nothing to do with mysticism - thus I'd favor this second definition. A definition that doesn't apply to Vherokior shamans as far as I can see - at least not by necessity.
-
Hi Nicolette,
I think we're mostly sorted on all aspects except something that feels a bit definitional about mystics.
Earlier on in the conversation I think (but am not entirely certain) that we'd agreed that (all? most?) shamans were mystics, but not all mystics were shamans. I'm fine with that.
I think we're now having a bit of a go-over about multiple possible meanings of "mystic", ranging from "St John of the Cross" to "a term that can be used as occultish-sounding fluff to make something sound important".
I think that there's a genuine mystical strand in Matari shamanism. I think the idea of trying to transcend your own boundaries of self and experience communion with the divine is essentially mystical, whether that "divine" is an idea of monotheistic godhead or the spirit realm. (Or a stroke that takes out left-brain functioning, or Steve Jobs on acid...)
How does that fit with your take on mysticism and practitioners of mysticism?
Regards,
Mata
-
Earlier on in the conversation I think (but am not entirely certain) that we'd agreed that (all? most?) shamans were mystics, but not all mystics were shamans. I'm fine with that.
Not just empty-quoting. Everything that Mata said sounds about right. The difference being that Shamans act as mediums and presumably oversee clan rituals (we know this much is true for the Voluval). Mystics aren't essentially mediums or figureheads, they're just seeking divine communion.
-
Just a small aside here.
Is there any gnostics in New Eden?
-
Is there any gnostics in New Eden?
I'm not intentionally arguing definitions, but since the translation and widespread distribution of the Nag Hammadi texts I think I'd have to ask what you meant by "gnostic" before I could respond. Are you thinking of a strongly dualist view, with a flawed physical world created by a fallen demiurge?
Given CCP Abraxas' choice of name, I suspect we could interpret a number of things in the EVE world as the flawed creations of a fallen demiurge, but that might be getting a bit meta. :P
(I could mention that Ciarente and I have both drawn on The Thunder: Perfect Mind (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html) for flavour text, but I'm not sure that's entirely relevant. :) )
-
I think i did and still do disagree with the notion that all shamans are mystics. What I agree with is that all Vherokior shamans are, by PF, called mystics.
So, as I don't see Vherokior shamans as seeking communion with the divine, and don't see any evidence to the contrary in PF, I asked myself "Is there a sense in which they can be called >mystics<?"
My answer is: Not in the sense 'practitioner of mysticism' but in the sense 'someone doing occultish and mysterious mumbo-jumbo'.
A shaman isn't trying to transcend his own boundaries of self and experience communion with the divine. He's not becoming one with the spirit realm, he's moving within it and ties to find solutions there for practical problems while remaining himself and apart from the spirits he encounters.
-
So, as I don't see Vherokior shamans as seeking communion with the divine, and don't see any evidence to the contrary in PF, I asked myself "Is there a sense in which they can be called >mystics<?"
My answer is: Not in the sense 'practitioner of mysticism' but in the sense 'someone doing occultish and mysterious mumbo-jumbo'.
Which is the practice of mysticism.
Using the most loose definition, the pursuit of or engagement in mystical experiences or seeking knowledge of the unknowable is mysticism - which doesn't necessarily equate to transcendence.
Seems like a semantics issue, again? These are several branches of mysticism (real-world).
That said, if we ignore the word 'mysticism' altogether and I read what you said point for point, then I'd agree that Shamanism doesn't necessarily entail what you described as a mystic. But this is just my interpretation of Shamanism, and as I highlighted earlier, we can't/shouldn't take Shaman in EVE to be literal relative to our real-world definition of Shamans.
-
A shaman isn't trying to transcend his own boundaries of self and experience communion with the divine. He's not becoming one with the spirit realm, he's moving within it and ties to find solutions there for practical problems while remaining himself and apart from the spirits he encounters.
Maybe. That description could match the spirit-quest aspect of Matari shamanism, but I'm not sure that it captures the ecstatic aspect of Matari religion that I suspect is also part of the shamanic milieu.
It sounds like our main differences are in what we think shamans do, and whether "the divine" or "the transcendent" is something that has meaning in a Minmatar context. Maybe we'll explore those in play or stories. Maybe we'll retain our different views and carry them IC.
I'm happy with leaving this discussion where it is now: does that seem reasonable to you?
-
...
It sounds like our main differences are in what we think shamans do, and whether "the divine" or "the transcendent" is something that has meaning in a Minmatar context. Maybe we'll explore those in play or stories. Maybe we'll retain our different views and carry them IC.
...
I was going to say, it did seem like you were reaching that impasse.
-
To generalise, shamans IRL are typically schizotypal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder). They're the "half-crazy" people somewhere on the continuum to schizophrenia: they can function in the specific social niche of spirit-guide and mediator for the world of myth and story/sea of dreams/unconscious. I imagine EVE shamans are like this, too, with most of them having "being a shaman" as a necessary lifestyle determined by their personal wiring and demons and focused by clan recognition and training, rather than it being a chosen day job for any likely child.
That said, I do think there are probably shamans or people in shaman-like roles out there who fit more into the day-job model, some of them even being a lot like a blend of the contemporary psychiatrist/clinical psychologist/counsellor. There will be some tension about what constitutes a "proper" shaman. "Proper" half-crazy shamans will be brought in for important rituals, while you might see a tamer one for clan pastoral care. Maybe.
Strongly disagree with the Minmatar shamans= schizotypal assumption you're making here, for a couple reasons.
One, there is the unstated and underlying assumption that if youre religious/spiritual in a tribal environment (or really religious/spiritual at all) then obviously there is something mentally wrong with you.
Growing up where I did (Oklahoma for those who dont know, and Im part Choctaw and Comanche) I've met a couple of actually no kidding modern shamans. Not one of them was what I would call schizotypal or mentally unstable. They were quite articulate and urbane in fact.
In the past, sure, Im sure some of those shamanistic practices could have been explained that way in the past, but hardly not all of their function or behavior (ignoring the fact that being a shaman meant a lot of different things to different tribes and nations). Basically, I find the whole "primitive people, your religious practices can be explained by mental illness!" to be that kind of quasi-insulting, patronizing, and tone-deaf Eurocentric voice that anthropology can take on when its done poorly. I think schizotypical behavior can explain quite a few areas of human interaction and specialized roles, in particular artists and scientists, not just shamans and religious people. (Picasso was Picasso, for instance, and Einstein was socially bizarre and kinda a creep personally). I think it has more to do with having roles in society that you can excel in while not having to interact a lot with society at large, or only through limited and ritualized means, and brilliant but borderline individuals would naturally find their way there over time.
Even making the assumption that "IRL" shamanistic practices and roles in the past are explained by mental dysfunction, one I really disagree with, you're making the assumption that just because a role fit a certain role in the past means that it would in the future. Lets take Catholic priests, for instance. In Medieval Europe, you could characterize the priesthood as often made up of ambitious and talented young men, who used the priesthood as an means to attain political, economic and social power otherwise denied to them by their non-noble bloodlines. Today? Not so much. The role hasnt changed, but the society around it has, and thus it changes the kind of people who find their way into the role.
I think of the Minmatar as a archetypical and tribal society, but not a primitive one. Given that they have a neurological understanding vastly greater than ours today, its hard for me to see them go "My son! He's a holy man!" when the response could likely be "actually...umm....according to our neural scan..hes autistic. We can fix that."
Also, I dont think Shamans in the schizotypical role would fly in say the Brutor Tribe, who seems to put an emphasis on physical training and achievement. I doubt a society thats built around martial and physical excellence would accept "flawed" members to serve as the gate-keepers and councilors for their religious and social rites.
Anyway, just my thoughts on this.
-
Hmmm...
Okay, yes, I'll engage on this one.
It looks like there are two opposing statements:
In the past, sure, Im sure some of those shamanistic practices could have been explained that way in the past [....]
Even making the assumption that "IRL" shamanistic practices and roles in the past are explained by mental dysfunction, one I really disagree with [...]
I'm not quite sure how to address those. The ideas seemed to shift during the writing, maybe?
Crucial point: you've had me going back to my sources for the idea of the schizotypal shaman, and my generalisation may have overstated the case. I think the strongest statements I can currently justify are that:
-- some key aspects of shamanism appear schizotypal
-- there are plausible theories that those aspects of shamanism may have been developed and reinforced by shamans who were themselves schizotypal
-- not all shamans who follow the traditions and do the schizotypal-looking things now are necessarily schizotypal.
I'm willing to go with the idea that you don't need to have visions to be a modern shaman, or to have personal visions of rapture and apocalypse to be a modern minister. My statement "[t]o generalise, shamans IRL are typically schizotypal" was not just overly broad but quite possibly incorrect: I don't know enough about shamans IRL to say what they're typically like. You make a fair point that social change may mean that the types of people who take certain social roles change, and shamanism may well be maintained by people who are "articulate and urbane".
Now to the rest, looking at frameworks.
One, there is the unstated and underlying assumption that if youre religious/spiritual in a tribal environment (or really religious/spiritual at all) then obviously there is something mentally wrong with you.
I question the use of "wrong" in this statement: I'm less interested in making moral judgements about things than in understanding them.
I do think that religious visionaries of any stripe tend towards the schizotypal. I think that--or wonder if--much visionary experience can be attributed to temporal-lobe epilepsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_lobe_epilepsy#Social_and_artistic_influence). I'm pretty sure that a fair bit of the rest of it can be induced by body-hacking to bring on ecstatic and/or hallucinatory states, as mentioned earlier in this thread. I also think that religious rituals and prohibitions may well show the input of OCD, particularly that form of OCD which is now called scrupulosity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity). This is not specifically aimed at societies which have shamans: Moses, Muhammad and Martin Luther all get swept up in these discussions.
Whether those contributing factors to religious/spiritual matters mean their adherents are "mentally wrong" is a whole 'nother issue. Some would say "Yes". Some would say "No, because the results are socially adaptive". Some would say "Get your DSM off my personality and religious experience". But that's not the discussion we're having just now.
I think schizotypical behavior can explain quite a few areas of human interaction and specialized roles, in particular artists and scientists, not just shamans and religious people.
Yep. I'm with you there. A driving force behind many things we value can be the personal itches of the people involved. (Although I'd like to think that even when the fascination might be obsessive, the techniques and testing in the sciences would be rigorous.)
The role hasnt changed, but the society around it has, and thus it changes the kind of people who find their way into the role.
I could very much see this affecting the type of people who became shamans in different social and cultural settings, yes.
If you'd like to chat about the general aspects of this further you know how to contact me. It's probably not a core focus for an EVE forum.
I was hoping to do a summary of the lineage of the theory of schizotypal shamanism. I've encountered it in contemporary sources. Following it back--to the European anthropologist Paul Radin who did fieldwork among the North American Winnebago/Ho-Chunk tribe and published an anthology of their Trickster stories with analytical essays by various luminaries of the time including Carl Jung--is turning into a rabbit-hole which has swallowed my morning. Incidentally, Radin seems to be aware of the issue of dominant cultures putting their own slant on things, and was trying to shape the discipline of ethology to manage that (as much as is possible for a dominant-culture academic discipline). Some of his vocab raises my hackles; some of his prefacing paragraphs soothe them somewhat; and I'm tossing up how much further I want to follow that up.
-
@Casi: There wasn't yelling! Or even fake-yelling, really. Honestly my point came down to: if you don't like spiritualism in your Roleplay, don't play it - but if you want to play a Sebiestor that actually explores their roots, still consider that a viable option. My confusion was more along the lines with you seeming to (from my position) avoid Minmatar themed roleplay in general (even on Casi) because of this fact. There are plenty of Matari who don't touch the subject IC which is a perfectly valid way of playing Minmatar. It just kind of looks like you concluded at some point that playing a Minmatar that explored Sebiestor culture would invariably mean a lot of spiritual RP, which I don't think is really necessary.
I should have appended a " :P " and just forgot. I understood the tone in which you meant our conversation and no feelings were harmed on this end. :) :P
And to clarify: it's not that I think that I would have to do anything I wouldn't want to do, but that I'd be interacting with a lot of characters who'd possibly give mine grief about not wanting to delve into spirituality or whatever term people prefer (I don't want to get hung up on that bit). I deal with that enough IRL as a semi-closeted atheist, so at the risk of indulging in a cliche: it's not you, it's me. :)
When I see some of the other responses in this thread, it gets clearer to me that, while the specifics may vary, a lot of players involved in Minmatar RP like that sort of thing. That's perfectly valid and fine and I can in no way fault anyone. But I just sort of realized that I like other things about EVE, and so as long as I was moving my focus off of Casiella for other reasons entirely, I'd drop that bit entirely.
This, incidentally, is why "Rogue Integer" is so staunchly antitheist, and I'd even suggest antispiritual. Maybe it's projection, maybe it's overreaction, but it's a little bit cathartic for sure. I've started to develop another irreligious character who's simply apathetic about the whole thing and that will be yet another (hopefully valid) approach.
-
The further this discussion goes the more I get the feeling that pretty much Shamans of the Minmatar culture == priests of the Minmatar culture.
Being a shaman in the Republic is pretty much a career choice as much as being a priest in any other religion.
Going further into a spiritual/mystical direction in the course of doing ones work is a personal choice (just like with priests.)
Vherokior have a separate sub-culture in the Republic where it is considered to be a good thing (or mandatory) to go down that spiritual path.
The job of a shaman is pretty much the same as of a priest.
To indoctrinate the population to certain aspects of the culture of the nation.
Pretty much you can replace the word priest with shaman (or vice versa) in any context that you can come up with.
Teaching you your morality.
Taking care of the spiritual well being of its congregation.
Performing the rituals of passage through different milestones of a persons life.
Giving 'advice' to you on what is right and what is wrong.
With the hi-tech cultures of the New Eden inducing any kind of altered mental state (be it from a deformity of a brain or licking toads) is easy as triggering an implant or eating a pill.
I believe that one option is that interpreting those altered mental states is nothing short of a training in another branch of psychology that we currently have no scientific study in.
Using that altered state of mind to access your perceptions of a situation in a more accurate and dissecting way.
Thus coming up with 'insights'.
Thus being 'mystic'.
-
That is the strange thing...
There is nothing supernatural in New Eden (or the real world).
Why would there be in the Republic?
With training and genetics in New Eden you can have preternatural capabilities for people, but never supernatural.
Kind of like the extremes of body control represented in sci-fi by the Bene Gesserit in Dune, which is based on body control exhibited by yogi in India.
I don't think the interesting thing here is discussing whether the Vherokior shamans are clairvoyant, the interesting part is the question on how they became extremely sagacious through the ages.
How did that fact affect the culture of the Minmatar before Day of Darkness?
Can anyone reach that same level of cultured intuition through training?
Is there a skill book about it?
Were they in on the Nefantar conspiracy on preserving the Starkmanir?
How about the preservation of the whole Minmatar culture by the same people?
Are they the willing tools of the Elders?
Have they always been?
Are they benign?
Is Voluval just a way of controlling the Minmatar population and assigning them to different castes by the whims of an elite?
Do old Holders possess similar skills?
Yes.
Seriously, all of this is quite likely true under various circumstances. I would be deeply surprised if attempts havent been made by some, at some point, to "manipulate" the Voluval.
-
While there isn't direct evidence, I would think that in a civilization of trillions of people, there are probably non-Vherokior shamans. Unless it's simply that spiritual leaders who aren't Vherokior are called something else?
Edit: To expand, given teh shambles that a lot of PF is, I hesitate any time I see CCP use an absolute (ie, all shamans are Vherokior Males).
You slipped an edit in there between me reading and starting my reply.
Tell me about this hesitation... ;)
I think that every time we encounter "shaman" in PF it's in the context of "Vherokior male". One new chronicle could change that, of course, but if that is indeed the current situation in PF I'm inclined to treat it as significant.
We have it pretty clearly that it's Vherokior shamans who spread the Voluval even today (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Voluval#Historical_Background).
I think it's highly likely that in a population of probably-trillions there are schizotypes who are not Vherokior. Do they get called shamans and slotted into the shaman role? Maybe. What's the role of a shaman in daily life? Do you want them around regularly, or do you invite them in only when you have a ritual that needs their involvement, and breathe a sigh of relief when you wave them farewell, laden with gifts and fees?
I think you could make cases for various scenarios. I think most of those cases are currently un-canonical (which tends to be a space where EVE RPers will go if there's a good story to tell), and some of them would be anti-canonical (which is where we start going "Dude, you're flying in a pod, or you biomass when you lose a ship, or we think the character is nutzo, okay?").
Its pretty well known I play Ava as a "spirit-guide" (And a sort of fumbling, bumbling one at that) who is, of course, not Vherokior. Due to the tiny smatterings of PF we have on Minmatar in general and religion in particular, I will pretty much do so until PF says "Nope."
I do acknowledge, ICly, that when a Voluval is to be performed, the syringes/contents must be recieved from an outside source, and are very carefully distributed on an "as needed" basis. It isnt something she, nor anyone in her circles, has any idea how to replicate, nor do they really know where it comes from. They go to a Tribal bureau, fill out the required forms, and are given what they need to perform the next ritual.
As far as duties, I run "shamans" as a catch all spiritual/physical advisor. They perform rituals, give advice, interpret *signs*, and act as teacher, historian, and doctor, all at once, due to the remote nature of the Clans that I have fleshed out a bit. Once again, this is not saying this is, or should be, PF, nor anyone else's take on it, which is why theyre "remote, isolated Clans". It is just my interpretation. The "shaman" in the Clans of the "ko'mak region of Mikramurka" have mundane day to day duties to their clan, just like anyone else. They simply have an added duty, and perhaps as a result, a bit of added prestige, and "pull" within the Clan hierarchy, due to their role.
Huge, widely varying ethnic groups will almost certainly have their own spiritual figures. I see no reason every Tribe wouldnt have their own "shamans", though they need not be anything remotely alike.
-
...and the choice of being a Shaman has nothing to do with your IRL inclinations?
-
/me walks in late
Has anyone brought up how the Minmatar have retained these spiritual beliefs despite being the 2nd civilization to reach space (before Gallente and Caldari)? It suggests the Minmatar have had a radically different social and technological development than what we are familiar with IRL (duh), for them to discover the science behind spaceflight and a whole crapload of other things and still follow this stuff (no equivalent to the Enlightenment). Similarly, with this in mind, it may infer that all of Minmatar society is radically different to what we know IRL.
If, perhaps, the name "tribe" was replaced with something more alien like "kiith" (though they are the same for all intents and purposes), then the disconnect from reality and the suspension into fantasy might be more accessible.
A Minmatar tribe has entire fleets, cities, and planets under their control. But, because of the specific use of the word "tribe", we make instant connections to real-life tribes, which are these agrarian groups in rural communities. It can't be helped. Sure, we can sit down and use our noggins and realize this, but it won't immediately cut out the first impression. It's like the Gallente Federation reading as a federal democracy, most people go "aaah space US!" but then you sit down and have a think, and realize that the two are completely different (one of them is in space that covers at least 4-5 completely different civilizations).
However, so much of PF is taken from real-life sources and EVE'd up, that making RL comparisons can't be helped. I blame it on the fact that CCP's writing ability back in 2003 was very limited because of how new they were.
-
Seri, the mantra here is "Tribal != Primitive". That notion seems to keep popping up, though: is it something we can work through so it sticks?
If you prefer, think of the tribes as being like the phyles of Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age.
-
Well, I didn't walk in late for nothin'...heh
-
The way I think of Minmatar shamanism is that considering the world to be alive, with a spirit for each part of it, is intended to make the follower of that faith respect it and be more in tune with it's demands. This would be a bit like my very sketchy understanding of taoism.
Does this seem reasonable to the rest of you?
-
The way I think of Minmatar shamanism is that considering the world to be alive, with a spirit for each part of it, is intended to make the follower of that faith respect it and be more in tune with it's demands. This would be a bit like my very sketchy understanding of taoism.
Does this seem reasonable to the rest of you?
Arnulf, I think it's a reasonable thing to believe about Minmatar shamanism, and there should be people around who believe that.
If you haven't already, you might find it interesting to have a look at animism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism), pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism), and maybe even panentheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism). The early parts of the (long) Wikipedia article on shamanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism) are helpful, too.
Taoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism)'s actually an interesting model to examine for ideas, and not one I'd considered in that light. One of the traditions it most likely drew from is the South-Chinese wu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_%28shaman%29) shamanism. I also like the idea of seeing how a tradition that included practices to extend life, ideally to the point of immortality, might deal with pod-pilot "cloning". I think there could be some fragmentation and fruitful angst there.
-
Seri, the mantra here is "Tribal != Primitive".
I think it should be pretty damned obvious to people that just because the Minmatar use a tribal social system, they're not (as a general rule) primitives - in-fact heralding some of the most creative thinkers of the cluster, and despite their relative youth as a Republic spearheading a fierce war-machine and presence as a political entity.
I think that a lot of people fall into that trap. As far as Hatele's clan goes, yes, for the most part they were impoverished and in many ways were 'primitive tribals'. However, I'm mindful of how I planned that out, there's a strong juxtapose with technology there and I was careful about how Hatele's story fit in with EVE.
Lately I've been going out of my way to point just that mantra out, but I fear it's not sticking.
@Arnulf: That's a pretty succinct description of my vague beliefs, yes.
-
Arnulf, I think it's a reasonable thing to believe about Minmatar shamanism, and there should be people around who believe that.
If you haven't already, you might find it interesting to have a look at animism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism), pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism), and maybe even panentheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism). The early parts of the (long) Wikipedia article on shamanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism) are helpful, too.
Taoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism)'s actually an interesting model to examine for ideas, and not one I'd considered in that light. One of the traditions it most likely drew from is the South-Chinese wu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_%28shaman%29) shamanism. I also like the idea of seeing how a tradition that included practices to extend life, ideally to the point of immortality, might deal with pod-pilot "cloning". I think there could be some fragmentation and fruitful angst there.
On looking through those links I see the article on pantheism has the following image, referenced as the symbol of the World Pantheist Movement:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Panth%C3%A9isme.JPG)
Looks kinda familiar doesn't it?