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[Jikahr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy
A mixed economy is a mix of socialism (planned economy)  and with privately owned companies.    To me, having a planned economy where many of the actors in the economy aren't state owned but allowed to remain private as long as they serve a function of the plan adequately cannot actually be described as mixed socialism  and capitalism.   Just socialism.    Capitalism does not exist without total freedom of choice.   Am I really the owner of my company if my company must meet the government's expectations on production using the governments provided plan for reaching those expectations?  Especially since if don't comply I'll be jailed and government officials will replace me?   Nationalized by any other name is still nationalized.

Also, I've seen plenty of arguments that while the Nazi left the 'ownership' of many companies in the hands of private citizens instead of nationalizing them they were expected to strictly adhere to their part in the planned economy.       Just because they had large 'private' (on paper) companies producing mass quantities of war material didn't make them capitalist.

It seems we are getting into discussing real world ideologies and differences here, which have little to do with the world of EVE. In the interests of remaining on topic, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Jikahr]

So you are saying that because shareholders who are fortunate enough to have the money to be able to purchase stock are able to vote, that somehow means the Corporation is not a Totalitarian institution?

I remember the CEO of OPC saying the same thing in Robocop. He was the villain.

Yes I am saying that.   Yes, California has leaned socialist since the 80s and even farther back - and yes many Hollywood directors like to put pro-socialist propaganda into their movies.

It seems we are getting into discussing real world ideologies and differences here, which have little to do with the world of EVE. In the interests of remaining on topic, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[purple]

I edited my post with some links, you might have missed since we are on page 6

[purple]

It makes me smile that you brought up OCP.    I believe that the original fiction staff at CCP intentionally created a superficial face for each of the empires and that the Caldari's was strongly inspired by Omni-Consumer Products.     I've brought the OCP caricature up several times here, chatsubo and other places.

[Jikahr]

I edited my post with some links, you might have missed since we are on page 6

I have read your recent posts, and they are off topic.

You and I have a radically different perspective on politics and economics. I don't think that can be reconciled within these forums. I think we have very different definitions of words such as socialism, capitalism, and Fascism.

The four factions are like funhouse mirrors. We can choose which mirror we want to look into, but it is only our own distorted reflection that we see.

If you think Capitalism is wonderful, and a system that works for you, great! If you think the Caldari state is the best representative of those values for you, good choice!

If Jesus Christ is your personal savior, and the Amarrian faction is the best reflection of that for you, that's wonderful!

It's your money, your game, your character, your sandbox. Make whatever shapes you want with that plastic pail and shovel.

[purple]

Milton Friedman is my personal savior.      I'll let the topic drop if you have no more interest in the discussion.   

However, I think this is all relevant to the discussion because both the OP and your arguments (or so they seem to me) for viewing the State a certain way are based on an unspoken defacto stance that socialism and it's trojan horse the social justice movement are reasonable, ethical and lead to great personal freedom while large corporations and hyper capitalism are inherently oppressive.   I feel that the exact opposite is true.

I was a little reluctant to get into the weeds of this with you earlier in the discussion and left it at 'you missed my point by a mile' because I realized it would come down a difference in real life ideology when I picked up on that you viewed the narrative of Kaikka Peunato as a charmingly rouge starship captain breaking away from an oppressive regime and shooting down anyone who tried to tell him who and what he had to be.

The Gurista's are slavers (most likely for purely sexual slavery), drug pushers, thieves and murderers.     Kaikka is a sociopathic douche-bag who likes to hurt people for fun and profit and as an irrelevant side note is also gay.   He chose to go to the Gurista because he can thrive in that environment as someone who likes to hurt people.

I think its unfair to make an argument that the Caldri State is repressive of it's citizens based on an unspoken assumption that a certain real life ideology is the correct one and then demand a termination of the conversation when someone challenges that assumption.  However, being a capitalist I respect your freedom of choice.  (See what I did there?! )

[Jikahr]

I think its unfair to make an argument that the Caldri State is repressive of it's citizens based on an unspoken assumption that a certain real life ideology is the correct one and then demand a termination of the conversation when someone challenges that assumption.  However, being a capitalist I respect your freedom of choice.  (See what I did there?! )

Well, as I have said it has nothing to do with the original topic.

As I have said, everyone has their own perspectives and opinions which they see reflected in the computer game environment.

If the Caldari state is a wonderful place to live, then there is no conflict and no reason to leave. If it is a Hyper-Capitalist system, then that system is already inherently unfair IMHO. If everything was 'fair', then why would there be inequalities?

However, just like the Capitalist system, or Communism, or Socialism, or anything, there are always going to be people that are in conflict with it and will struggle against it. Perhaps they are psychopaths or scumbags, but without conflict or struggle of some sort, there's not much point in playing a computer game full of spaceships that shoot each other.

It has nothing to do with your strawman argument that claims I am making an unspoken assumption that a certain real life ideology is the correct one. If it is an unspoken assumption, then how do you know?

It has everything to do with character motivation through conflict. Bilbo Baggins would have never left his house if not for Sauron, Luke Skywalker would still be a moisture farmer if it wasn't for Darth Vader. If everything is right with the world, then there is no story.

If you are a high sec carebear in Caldari space, that's fine. You are the one who pays for the subscription. It's your character, your sandbox. Do as you please.

However, the real life time you are spending making the pretend currency ISK in EVE by mining, or missioning or arguing with me, or whatever is actual time that could be more profitably spent making actual money in the real world.

So, how much real world money are you missing out on by playing EVE? Have you considered the opportunity cost? Why not play the stock market instead of station trading?

The topic is 'The state and sexuality'.

[Lyn Farel]

It's about preferences and perspectives. You and I seem to be on opposite sides of the spectrum here. I personally prefer over the top fanatics, but apparently you do not. I fail to see your issue with the fanatics, since they give contrast to the more 'vanilla flavoured' moderates who, in my opinion, are more like lazy and/or timid roleplayers than bold, creative ones.

Whoa, that's harsh. Though I think I see what you seem to refer to (a lot of RPers tend to go the moderate route by default, and react pretty sluggishly to anything politically oriented, or just say politically correct things, if that's what you meant ?)... Playing an Amarr moderate is damn hard, almost a nightmare. Because as you say, it's all the serpents frothing at the mouth and hardcore slavery/reclaiming that stands out in PF usually, at least at first. You seriously have to scratch the surface to find clues and hints about moderation in the Amarr Empire, and it's not easy to find those nuances.

The same way it's easy to play a spineless moderate that is somehow against slavery because it's evil and all, it's easy to play a mustache twirling vilain that eats baby slaves at lunch. What is harder to play are actually fleshed out characters that are either moderate in a reclaiming heavy atmosphere, especially since TEA, and hardcore hardliners that do not look cheesy in the process and break your suspension of disbelief.

[Lyn Farel]

Why does nearly every discussions I have here have at least one point in the conversation go something like:

Me:   I feel like the common concept that 'X is Y because of fact Z' could be argued as false because facts Q, R,S, and T all prove fact Z is either false or commonly misunderstood and therefore conclusions drawn from it must be reconsidered.    Would any of you rational chaps like to have a discussion on the merits Q,R,S,T and Z?

RPGuy :   X is Y because of fact Z.

TonyG gave the factions only a brief review before he shat out TEA and the FW arcs and caused much damage to the beautiful subtly of Eve fiction.   

They are like the those guys in Starcraft or Age of Empires who turtle up behind walls and turrets and only expand one they've exhausted all the raw materials within their defensive
perimeter.    They only expanded into Pure Blind and Black Rise because they needed the raw materials and because both areas were un-populated by others at the time.    Unlike the Federation and the Amarr they also have no imperialistic drive to force Caldari culture on the rest of humanity - but on rather on limiting the rest of humanities contamination of the Caldari.

  But what about Black Rise and the TEA/FW arcs shat out by TonyG?  Hmm?  You clearly didn't not consider that!

Yes I agree.

And at the same time post TEA we suddenly had the emergence of something so alien to the Caldari Culture to me that transformed the turtled up Caldari into militaristic imperialists that started out of nowhere to care about getting back their Homeworld. It leaded to a new brand of Caldari RPers that all suddenly started to RP Caldari knights valuing honour and getting back "Home" and stuff like that, and how they should get their revenge, etc etc. Can't blame them, PF suddenly started to say similar things with TonyG things about getting back what was theirs and all.

However, the way I have always seen it, before TEA, the Caldari couldn't care less about Caldari Prime (Luminaire). They couldn't care less about the planet in itself, and their homeworld, precisely because the newly formed Caldari State has never even been part of the Caldari Prime caldari society to begin with, and also because it's completely antithesis to their beliefs and values to care about a planet. What they actually cared about was their ancestors, their honor in relation to the Federation that humiliated them, what they had sacrificed to be sure that nothing of the sort never happens again... All in all, the Caldari State was something brand new, pragmatic, cold and ruthless, very different from the original Caldari culture that didn't even have any megacorporations.

Eventually, the only ones to care (vaguely) about getting back their homeworld, more like a dream than anything else, were the Patriot hawks. And even for them, the core belief was actually to dominate everyone else in terms of power, military strength and technology to be sure to remain safe and to prevail.

And suddenly, Tibus Heth. 

Yes I am saying that.   Yes, California has leaned socialist since the 80s and even farther back - and yes many Hollywood directors like to put pro-socialist propaganda into their movies.   I'm also saying luck has little to do with your wealth.    Most people who inherit great wealth from their parents or grand parents do nothing but squander it away until it's gone.    Those that maintain it or enlarge the families wealth do so because they inherited the traits that allowed their parents to earn it in the first place.   Outside of people being born into wealth and the lottery money doesn't just come at you because of luck. People give you money because you provide them with something of value.    Those who come into wealth via luck, and don't provide value to society tend to disperse (spend) that wealth back among the people who do.

I think the luck is here, but elsewhere : it's located into the opportunities you will run into. You can try to create them yourself, but most of them just depends on a lot of independent hazards. I mean, I wouldn't be where I am IRL without those lucky opportunities that came at the right time. And for most of them, I didn't had anything to do with them. They were just here, and I could have not gotten them in another life.

Ah ok, Milton Friedman. I see where this part seems to come from.

I hate everything that promotes liberalism myself so.. That's also why I believe that the USA are one of the biggest hidden threat to the planet, either environmentally or just "capitalistically" (who spends its time creating world economic crisises due to deregulated systems ?). vOv

[Jace]

This thread has become just ridiculous.

[Lithium Flower]

Errgh.
I don't know where this thread is not going.
Besides, according to lore, it was gallente, who were fascists, not Caldari.


Returning to the question of sexuality in the State. I have read recently a funny story that was, unfortunately, true. It happened in 60-s in USSR. One, excuse me for explicitness, gynecologist checked a girl of about 18 years old, accompanied with her mother, who complained she had problems with cycles. As it turned out, the girl was about 5 months pregnant and they weren't making aborts at that point, so the doctor congratulated them and said, that they have only one option left, to give birth to the baby.
The girl was infuriated and almost attacked the doctor, claiming: "It is impossible, we never slept together!! We did it not at night, but with lights on, and we were STANDING, not laying!!!"

I believe we could expect the same degree of "education" about sexuality in the State.
(Probably there should be proper instructions about "what to do and how", that corporate marriage system would provide to young peoples right before the wedding  )

[purple]

So, how much real world money are you missing out on by playing EVE? Have you considered the opportunity cost? Why not play the stock market instead of station trading?

I have actually and it's why I don't really play anymore.    I did learn a lot from the game though, and it turns out that making dollars is just as easy as ISK.

[purple]

This thread has become just ridiculous.

I respectfully put forth that it started ridiculous and become progressively less so.

[Mizhara]

This has gone way too far, in my opinion. I've attempted to summon a mod to have a look-see and determine if the thread should stay open. I think we've gotten as far on the topic as we'll get, without getting needlessly offensive. The derail into real life political stances does not belong in this particular subforum either, and is cautioned against even in the relevant subs.

[purple]

Pretty typical of social justice warriors to try to silence someone using the Socratic method to point out the truth.   Despite the fact that no one has been attacked or insulted, all parties have remained friendly and amicable and  I've made a logical argument for why my points are relevant to the original topic.