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[Ghost Hunter]

The purpose of this discussion is the theoretical designs we can think of to make Pirate nullsecurity (Stain, Curse, Venal, constellations in Delve, Fountain[?]) worthy of being pirate nullsec and not "nullsec-lite".

The following is my thoughts and ideas, using Stain and the Sansha as my primary example as they're the ones I am most familiar with. (lol) Keep that in mind, switch the pirate/empire entities as needed for the other pirate nullsecurity.


The problem> Pirate nullsec's only difference from true nullsec is the presence of NPC stations and the inability for alliances to claim sovereignty. There is no distinct difference or benefit otherwise.

Suggestions

The regional environment

>Strip out all pirate NPCs from the belts, complexes, etc in the pirate nullsec. Effectively, there would be no bounty'd Sansha's Nation in Stain for slaughtering. Replace the removed pirate NPCs with Empire NPCs of equal value and position. Stain's belts become infested with Amarr Empire, for example. Stain's NPC complexes become versus the Amarr and open up the Imperial loot table for complex runners. This solves the problem of ratting in your sovereign's region and only having the option of killing the people you claim loyalty to.

To facilitate extra incentive, attach a small +standing value to the Empire belt rats in the pirate nullsecurity. In Stain, this would allow someone who is deep negative to Sansha's Nation to slowly grind up +standings with them, but conversely start acquiring -standings to the Amarr Empire (possibly its allies?). Introduce a hard cap to these +standings, limiting standings gained by this method to -4.0. This allows someone who truly wishes to commit to train diplomacy 5, placing them above -2 and begin mission running for the pirate faction.

tl;dr - Turn all Sansha spawns in Stain into Amarr Empire, allowing loyalists to rat belts/complexes and recover -standing to a degree.


Stations, Sentry Guns, Stargates and Pirate Status levels and You

>Introduce -pirate status levels to the pirate nullsecurity. This value will explicitly influence how the pirate police, stations, sentry guns and stargates behave. Security status will be left alone, in order to keep the belt/complex spawn mechanics reasonably sane. Pirate status levels will range from the weakest/outpost, -0.1, to the strongest/fortress, -1.0, which is the pirate faction's capital system. (37S-KO in Sansha's Nation.)

Your standing with the pirate faction will come into effect at this point.

*If you are negative -4.5 or worse to the pirate faction:

• 1) Stations and stargates will "lower your priority" over others, increasing your effective timer from 30 seconds to (at least) 60 seconds. This will outlast your cloak/undocking immunity, posing serious risk to unwelcomed invaders who choose to operate in the stargates/stations.
• 2) Station sentry guns will automatically fire upon you if you are in -pirate status systems -0.3 or higher (towards -1.0). This will deter people from idly camping loyalists or loitering around the pirate's owned assets in valued areas. Although it is trivial to tank a simple pair of sentry guns in capital ships, the primary intent here is to keep speedy/small gangs from blockading a station without any kind of preparation. As there is no pirate sentry guns on stargates, through traffic is unaffected.

If you are -0.5 or better to the pirate faction:

• 1) Stations and stargates do not lower your priority, keeping them at the traditional 30 second timer.
  
• 2) Station guns will ignore you outside of their normal return-fire aggro if you shoot the station.

If you are +5 or better to the pirate faction:

• 1) Stations and stargates are not affected.
• 2) Sentry guns will automatically fire upon targets you engage, or engaged by, when near a station. The person you are attacking, or being attacked by, must not be at +5 or better. If they are, the station guns will remain inert and they will not assist you or your attacker.

The Pirate Police (Also known as the intergalactic troll brigade)

The pirate police concept is intended to act as a further deterrent to deeply -standing capsuleers who muck about their space. Unlike CONCORD however, the pirate police vessels are not indestructible nor do they infinitely spawn. Lets walk down the list.

• In order to prevent abuse, as well as to facilitate their purpose as a deterrent/threat removal, the pirate police ships WILL NOT have bounties or the standard loot table in their wrecks. Salvaging their wrecks will only yield metal scraps.
• The pirate police will appear in every system from -0.3 to -1.0, however the severity and their precise trigger values will differ.
• The pirate police will have a maximum of three escalation levels, ranging from Recon(light), Taskforce(medium) and Threat Removal(extreme). E.g, the pirate police may choose to spawn multiple waves of recon-levels, or a single wave. It might even escalate immediately to a Taskforce if a sudden increase in applicably -standing capsuleers show up at once. etc
• The pirate police will have their faction's appropriate ewar and tackling with the exception of NO WARP DISRUPTION of any kind. It will solely be in the player's power to tackle and hold down someone, the pirate police will always allow travelers who may trigger their spawns to flee.
• Once a person's assigned pirate police force is destroyed, they will never spawn again within that system until the person leaves/reenters. If they jump out to another system and/or jump back in, they will receive a pirate police response as per normal. This will allow people who wish to camp a system the opportunity (provided they earn it), and discourage undocking/gate jumping games.

The first point I feel is clear in its meaning as a way of making these spawns as something you only want to seriously contend with when there is something of great importance to you to commit to. You do not want to farm them as you simply only risk destroying your ship every time. Thus, do you stay or do you go is the question.

The second point I also feel is clear in its meaning as a clear indication that the closer you get to their fortress (-1.0), the more extreme and edgy the pirate police will become. For instance, I would imagine a recon-level response in a -0.3 to be fairly trivial to deal with. A recon-level response in -1.0 would make a battleship pilot sweat bullets. They will only escalate from that point too.

For the third point, the intent is to make the pirate police capable of appropriately responding to the various levels of threats a capsuleer poses. For instance, an interceptor pilot may only spawn an interceptor recon-level response which it has the power to deal with. A carrier pilot might trigger a capital recon-level spawn which might eventually escalate into a Taskforce, and ultimately a capital-killing capable Threat Removal armada.

In the fourth point, I do not want to make pirate nullsecurity completely inaccessible to small craft people, but there should be a powerful deterring force to the unwanted regardless. Thus, you have the ability to flee at any time but you will have to deal with the pirate police response if you want to stay.

For the final point, to mark the biggest difference between the pirate police and CONCORD is that the pirate police will stop if the people they're after kill them completely. You have earned the right to muck about their space at that point, but they will be after you again if you trigger them in the next system or come back and retrigger them again, etc.


The Pirate Police and You

While it's clear the pirate police will act as a deterrent, could they be made to help loyalists? This section I'm more willing to disregard in general, but one I want to entertain nonetheless.

The basic requirements to having any ability to trigger a pirate police assistance force will be +2.0 faction (base, not effective. Thusly skills will not help you if you are below +2).

The order of unlocking responses would go as

• +2 = Recon-level
• +5 = Taskforce-level
• +9.5 = Threat Removal-level

This will give loyalists a 'home front advantage' in that they will receive NPC assistance when they are attacked/attacking. However, much like the sentry gun aggro mechanics, the pirate police will not assist loyalists who attack one another. Furthermore, the assisting pirate police will be 'weaker' than their counter-parts who pursue unwanted capsuleers. Their primary goal is to augment, not necessarily be overpowering in their own right.

A question that may immediately come to mind is "what about swarms of pirate assisting NPCs then?" to which I have thought of this. When a pirate response is on grid, no other pirate police responses will activate or 'reinforce' it except the pirate response's own decision if it wants to 'escalate' up a combat level. Rather than swarming the NPCs, the original pirate response will most likely have extra values assigned to its escalation triggers - thus turning a recon force that might not have gone to Taskforce level into doing so.

After the pirate response is completely destroyed (and its complete escalation is done or it chooses not to escalate) the grid they were on will be marked as 'do not respond' until all players have left (or X hours have passed). In this way, if people who jumped in that would've had triggered a pirate police response are on-grid when an assisting pirate police is there, they are not flagged as immune to the pirate police spawn. When they leave grid, they will have to contend with the normal pirate police spawn they would have acquired normally. Of course if they return to the grid, the pursuing pirate police response will disappear until they leave that grid once again. Not a perfect world, but it doesn't grant people an abuse-able immunity that I can foresee.

Thus, ideally, a single person's pirate police assisting force will be the only one on grid and be given values to escalate if the combat situation demands it. Multiple assisting forces should never show up, there should only ever be one force and its own escalation to be more dangerous.


This is my first published rough draft of the idea and input on it would be appreciated. The goal here is to turn pirate nullsecurity mechanics into something worth being called pirate nullsecurity. The profitability of pirate nullsec, the loyalty point store and all that is a separate issue I would like to address in another topic.


Let 'er rip `o`

[Arvo Katsuya]

I thought they're all good ideas to work on, and first thing to focus on if you're to expect the LP stores and further expansion and reasoning to actually support the pirate factions outside of purely RP reasons. Overall I really like these, and I'll see if I can think of other ways to improve it.

Edit: I don't see why those parts of sov the NPC factions can't have some level of security. I'd even go as far as to say perhaps some factions may have different sets of rules, even if modified slightly. Intaki Syndicate for instance sounds like it would be more accomidating to outsiders compared to others.

[Selvis]

The only issue I really have with this is the Imperial Navy presence. Nation's backbone was supposedly broken a century or so ago, I don't really think it's realistic to believe that the Navy would have a large-scale presence in the system when by all rights, they can't secure their own low-sec.

I've got a few ideas for how this could work, but I want to get them actually written down and get some feedback before I seriously suggest them.

(space reserved for new idea)

[Saede Riordan]

yeah, overall, I support this almost entirely. It encourages those living in the space to work together, and gives an alternative to highsec, it makes the space slightly secure, allowing the formation of market hubs and things, which will certainly be beneficial.

[Ghost Hunter]

The only issue I really have with this is the Imperial Navy presence. Nation's backbone was supposedly broken a century or so ago, I don't really think it's realistic to believe that the Navy would have a large-scale presence in the system when by all rights, they can't secure their own low-sec.

I've got a few ideas for how this could work, but I want to get them actually written down and get some feedback before I seriously suggest them.

(space reserved for new idea)

In the case of Stain, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect all 4 empires navies in there as per the implications from the Ishaeka report.

There is also the fact that, seeing as how the Domain fleet was not on prior "alert status", other Imperial fleets might be stationed in Stain as where it is appropriate.

I thought they're all good ideas to work on, and first thing to focus on if you're to expect the LP stores and further expansion and reasoning to actually support the pirate factions outside of purely RP reasons. Overall I really like these, and I'll see if I can think of other ways to improve it.

Edit: I don't see why those parts of sov the NPC factions can't have some level of security. I'd even go as far as to say perhaps some factions may have different sets of rules, even if modified slightly. Intaki Syndicate for instance sounds like it would be more accomidating to outsiders compared to others.

I agree.

[Saikoyu]

First, I would say this is a good idea, except for one thing, Low-sec.  I would support this, if something similar was put into low-sec as well, but reversed so that empire alligned players have the advantage (pirates and enemy empires players will be shot).  May I suggest that you put this idea on the low sec thread going on now (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1320395).  Or may I sugest it?  I'd give you credit of course.

Thinking about it, that might be a good idea for faction warfare (tangable results for changing a system sov), and might please some of the high-sec'ers who say low-sec is too dangerous (with helping empire ships)

Another point, this would work for most of the pirate factions, excpet for the Thukker tribe, who are in Great Wildlands and are currently allied with the Minmatar.  Who would spawn in that area, Amarr again?  It might be unbalanced.

Finally, what about people who are setting up in pirate null-sec (due to lack of space in true null-sec), but don't want to turn pirate.  This would seem to penalize them if they don't want to play along.  The only rats to hunt are empire, and what if that want that empire standing for high-sec operations?  Maybe make it more even, with one empire and one pirate spawn occuring in the same system at the same time.  That way, people who care can hunt something, and people who don't won't get much more (I think).

[Casiella]

I like the direction of your idea, though I also prefer to leave the specifics to the game designers (and aspiring designers like you ). So I won't quibble with details. I would like these regions to feel more immersive, though, as I happen to live in Curse at the moment (and spent a lot of time in Syndicate in the past).

Please do note, though, that NPC nullsec already has lots of incentives to live there IMO (e.g. free lab space, improved planetary resources, etc.) Maybe just tweak truesec down a little more.

[Ghost Hunter]

If you would like to put it there yourself, you can. I am not inclined to put it anywhere else myself yet as I chop it apart and refine the details.

This loosely proposed system could possibly fit into factional warfare, I am not opposed to the notion. Really, just about anything would be an improvement to it right now.

In regards to the Thukkers, I believe they are Angel spawns already?

The pirate nullsec is already controlled by alliances in everything except sovereignty - in my experience. This entire point I feel is just a symptom of a greater problem that is the 0.0 napfest plague. In the end, I'm taking the position of adjusting pirate nullsec for pirate players - people who are already barred from highsec and have to deal with the pathethic lowsec. They're the ones who would most likely benefit from this and cooperating with fellow loyalist pirates in my mind. Aspiring corporations or alliances will simply have to deal with the 0.0 napfest, or live in the "unpatrolled" sections of pirate nullsec. (-0.1 and -0.2 in my proposal remain unaffected by the sentry guns or pirate police).

I'll concede it would probably be sensible for there to be pirate complex/belt spawns on the occasion, but the vast majority should be Empire rats in my mind.

Edit; To put my position into better perspective - if you're in pirate nullsec and you don't want to live as a pirate, why are you there at all? The same challenges you would face normally in pirate nullsec you would face in other nullsecs, only with the addition of the sovereignty system. Thus, I am completely disinclined to adjust a very pirate-oriented system for people who could just as easily move over to true nullsecurity.

Final values on anything are left to developers, but without at least some kind of 'frame of reference' abstract figures can appear bigger than they're meant to be.

Pirate nullsec has a lot of incentives for most people. The problem in my opinion comes into play when there's no incentive TO BE loyal. At most you have the pirate LP store, which is just the implants + ships + worse than Empire faction ammo. That's it. This system is envisioned to be one of two parts, its part being the establishing of 'pirate nullsec' AS pirate nullsec. Once there's a clear system of the pirate environment, you can improve the rewards of the LP store / serving that faction to really make being loyal 'worth while'.

It's kind of dumb to swear loyalty to a faction that gets rolled in its own territory like its nothing.

[Saede Riordan]

There is something I'd like to suggest to add to pirate sov, and possibly lowsec as well, and that is the idea of "Dry Tortugas" centers, one per pirate sov. This would be a unique system, in that is behaves like highsec, with pirate versions of concord spawning to deal with aggression, however, cap ships are allowed in, and outlaws are ignored. This basically would turn the systems into 0.0 market hubs, and would allow pirates to actually live out of 0.0 and be able to support themselves without an alt.

[Ghost Hunter]

I disagree with the notion of pirate versions of CONCORD, where the effective difference is only in their name. I am of the mindset that while pirate enforcers are desirable, the players must be capable of dealing with them.

I also disagree with the notion of artificially creating market hubs. I would much rather see loyalists doing that themselves.

The pirate fortresses, their -1.0 capital systems, are probably similar in function to what you were suggesting. They have the capacity to function as regional market hubs, but loyalist powers could easily create a hub in unpatrolled sectors so deeply negative players can access it without fear. Well, less fear than they would have otherwise.

[orange]

I would extend much of this to all NPC 0.0

Outside of NPC 0.0, I think finding both Empire & Pirate spawns would be a good thing. To take the Nation/Amarr example - in Providence you would find a mix of Sansha (bounty) and Empire (tags) NPCs in various belts.  For a group like U'K this makes Providence good stomping grounds, but limits the NPC usefulness of a region if you want to stay friendly to the neighboring hi-sec.

[Saede Riordan]

problem is, there is nothing to encourage the loyalists/locals to work together. Meaning one group will still take and hold the entire area.

There needs to be some mechanic to encourage cooperation. I don't know what.

[Isobel Mitar]

This is my first published rough draft of the idea and input on it would be appreciated. The goal here is to turn pirate nullsecurity mechanics into something worth being called pirate nullsecurity.

Out of curiousity, why do you think pirate factions should exert greater control over "their" space than Empire factions do?

[Milo Caman]

I would extend much of this to all NPC 0.0

Might be an Idea to run areas like Syndicate, and (SoE Space?) which are self proclaimed 'Neutral' Zones as they are, with NPC stations, Belt rats and such. Syndicate especially, would lose it's 'wretched hive of scum and villainy' status if you just blanketed a system like this across the whole of 0.0.

[Ghost Hunter]

There is only one(1) pirate owned nullsec region for each of their respective factions. The rest of their space is 'true nullsec', frontier space. I can't very well propose turning the vast swaths of this space into pirate nullsec without being laughed out of the game, so I am focusing exclusively on their already owned 0.0 regions.

Ergo, the pirates exert greater control over their space in order to match their Empire contemporary counter parts and present a pro-pirate environment. However, in keeping with the nature of null security, its not a perfect (CONCORD) control. If I was to super simplify it, it would be to make pirate nullsec different from frontier nullsec instead of this 'nullsec-lite' kiddy pool crap it is now.

I thought about suggesting a standings hit to the attacking party (ala inner militia in-fighting) if they're at a certain positive value, like +3, or greater.

I would hazard to say it has some merit, but perhaps something worth looking into separately from pirate nullsec itself? Milo's point about Syndicate and SoE in particular.