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[kalaratiri]

Hello everyone.

I've decided to write this post because I've been noticing a disturbing trend in the Out Of Character discussions around Thebeka. There seems to be a rising opinion that certain groups shouldn't be involved because they're "not real roleplayers". I believe that this is an extremely dangerous attitude to hold for the continued health and security of RP and the RP community in Eve.

Every character present in Thebeka for the Cail Avetatu Astrahus structure timer has an In Character reason to be there. Every single one. Even if it's just "My FC told me too". It does not matter if the character hangs out in The Summit every day, it doesn't matter if they're in "an RP corp" or not, and it doesn't matter if their players consider themselves to be roleplayers. The characters exist in universe, and their actions apply to the continued narrative of Thebeka.

Attempting to de-legitimise and discredit people's involvement as being "out of character", or "not having a stake", or even labelling them "non-RP uninvolved third parties" is, in my opinion, deeply unfair. The events taking place in Thebeka are open to all; They are not a personalised playground for specific Minmatar/Amarr RP corps. As a story heavily involving the actions of independent capsuleers, both on the ground and in space, it makes perfect sense that independent capsuleers would be there.

This then, leads to my main point. Events like these, which show better than almost anything else how RP is not all about speaking in Shakespearean English over a healthy mug of /sip, are some of the best possible ways to introduce and include new roleplayers in the game's living story. The fight in Thebeka was an incredible display of force from all sides and an exceptional example of how an In Character conflict can escalate to a battle that would have been a respectable skirmish in nullsec. This kind of event should be lauded as a wonderful success for RP in Eve as a whole. It is the kind of thing that generates interest and invites new roleplayers to try their hands at the game.

Pushing people away for being the wrong kind of players is an enourmous error. It can only lead to a 'No true Scotsman' state of bad feeling. There isn't a side in the conflict that doesn't have a few players allied to them that "aren't real roleplayers". This does not matter. Many of those who showed up were not active roleplayers themselves but were led by those who are. This does not matter. Everybody is as justified in choosing to be present (or not) as anyone else.

Thanks for reading. Please think about it.

[Mizhir]

You are pretty spot on.

Also worth mentioning that the more people who get involved = higher chance that CCP will do something similar again.

[Maira Blackfire]

I agree fully on it, even though I may raise the question to the involvement of some people, but excluding them from content is just rude, be it the hobo or CVA. it's a mmo after all and we play it with many other people after all

[Samira Kernher]

I admit to having had and shared some reservations of my own. For me, though, it comes down to this: I greatly enjoy playing with and against people I know, who I know have similar interests as I do, who I can trade thoughts with when it's all over and done. I don't really have fun when it's against strangers (especially ones that start putting disgusting crap in local, that's an instant turnoff no matter whether it's over RP stuff or not). This is a reason why I really dislike FW, null, and all of the random matchmaking systems in most multiplayer games these days. Most big fights in general, really. The bigger it gets, with more names I don't know, the more stressful it gets for me. When a bunch of people come in who have had no prior involvement in any way with the things going on, and then by their involvement become the key players in the fight, well, eh. Then it becomes like any other fight in EVE to me. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't a little deflating.

Obviously, everyone had an IC reason to be there. This is EVE, everything is IC. Everyone in EVE is a roleplayer, no matter how much or how little they engage with the playstyle. But there are people who take it seriously, and those who won't. And I can't deny that I don't find much enjoyment playing with people who don't. But people can do what they want, and if they had fun, that's wonderful, I'm glad. I, for one, am not trying to gatekeep anything. I do not want to keep anyone out. But I do have my own feelings on what is fun for me and what isn't. And my issues would have mostly stayed that way, I try not to share them so much outside of private talks because I don't want to offend anyone, but if we're going to be putting this center stage (since I assume this thread was posted in part over me being one of the people who mentioned this to Kala after the fight), well, okay.

I'm sorry to anyone who feels upset over anything I have said over this issue.

[Teinyhr]

Well, I was supposed to write a long-ish post here but I'll just +1 Samira's post, because she said what I was going to and very respectfully at that.

[Nissui]

[...] there are people who take it seriously, and those who won't. And I can't deny that I don't find much enjoyment playing with people who don't. But people can do what they want, and if they had fun, that's wonderful, I'm glad. I, for one, am not trying to gatekeep anything. I do not want to keep anyone out. But I do have my own feelings on what is fun for me and what isn't.

Agreed.

[kalaratiri]

As I mentioned elsewhere in discussion with Samira,

"The point I'm trying to make isn't necessarily "everyone must welcome everyone with open arms", it's much more like "don't be openly hostile to the idea of new people""

I agree with a lot of what you've said Sami, and it's a perfectly legitimate opinion to hold.

[Karmilla Strife]

I'm much more excited to see decent numbers from both Amarr/Minmatar sides, to see groups like CVA/I-Red return to RP involvement, to see surprises like AM going rogue, or PNS side with old friends against people they've more or less been allied with for the last year, to see relevant RP pirates again (Daeuuas, Drake Arson and friends), and to see small corps and individuals (Samira, Mizhara, Darkar) making a HUGE impact both in space and in the official CCP narrative (thanks CCP!), than I'm disappointed by a very low number of participants in all of this who resort to political trolling in their attempt to "RP".

Overall this is great. I hope it leads to more fresh activity from all parties and encourages more of the people involved to RP. I'm not going to let a few bad interactions or distasteful trolling attempts ruin what has been a very positive experience.

[Mizhara]

I'm much more excited to see decent numbers from both Amarr/Minmatar sides, to see groups like CVA/I-Red return to RP involvement, to see surprises like AM going rogue, or PNS side with old friends against people they've more or less been allied with for the last year, to see relevant RP pirates again (Daeuuas, Drake Arson and friends), and to see small corps and individuals (Samira, Mizhara, Darkar) making a HUGE impact both in space and in the official CCP narrative (thanks CCP!), than I'm disappointed by a very low number of participants in all of this who resort to political trolling in their attempt to "RP".

Overall this is great. I hope it leads to more fresh activity from all parties and encourages more of the people involved to RP. I'm not going to let a few bad interactions or distasteful trolling attempts ruin what has been a very positive experience.

Great attitude. I like it.
I still say being wary of the pitfalls and being very cautious when dogpiling the events is of utmost importance, but good attitude.

[Karmilla Strife]

All CCP events get dogpiled. This is way better than 1200 people in Amarr local drowning out the event actors. All three sides (Loyal Amarr/Minmatar+Rebel Amarr/Mercs+Pirates) called in friends. I'm pretty pleased that things stayed fairly even in the main conflicts.

For what it's worth. I think if someone called in PIRAT, while a "valid RP move", it was poor taste and I don't think it was wrong for Arrendis to bring in 100+ goons to try to counter it. I think PIRAT was the only escalation in all of this that I'd consider a dick move. All of the rest wasn't really bad dogpiling, it was fairly tame escalation considering.

[Mizhara]

I'm less convinced on the hobo thing to be honest. That never felt like it had any kind of decent justification. PIRAT, well, if you have to merc you have to merc really. Besides, I have zero confirmation anyone even did call them in. Just someone hearing from someone that someone did it, and literally no confirmation in any way.

Other than the Hobo thing though, I'd agree.

[kalaratiri]

Hobos invited themselves because their FC was interested in being involved.

Which is absolutely fine.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

I'm much more excited to see decent numbers from both Amarr/Minmatar sides, to see groups like CVA/I-Red return to RP involvement, to see surprises like AM going rogue, or PNS side with old friends against people they've more or less been allied with for the last year, to see relevant RP pirates again (Daeuuas, Drake Arson and friends), and to see small corps and individuals (Samira, Mizhara, Darkar) making a HUGE impact both in space and in the official CCP narrative (thanks CCP!), than I'm disappointed by a very low number of participants in all of this who resort to political trolling in their attempt to "RP".

Quoted for truth.

EDIT to add this clarifying wall-of-text:

While I've used to word "partycrashers" about e.g. Daeuuas (hi) and Hobos (hi) I have not intended that as a claim that it is not valid gameplay or that "Real ArrPeers" as in established groups should have extra access to CCP storylines. Neither it is a comment on lack of RP - I'd call them partycrashers IC too.

Pirates partycrashing a high-visibility light shows and "third parties" getting involved because they are not actually third parties but have less-well-known allegiances and friendships is perfectly valid RP. It is valid RP if the entities in question actually play the roles; it is also valid RP environment for me if they do not actively play it, but still exist. I see that in the context my comments have possibly added to the feeling of not being welcome and if so, I am terribly sorry for that. I was not aware of the context enough and will try and be extra careful about it in the future.

While it is true that overwhelming force rarely leads to gudfites, I have not seen that as an issue in Thebeka, and well, if it happens, people get bored and go away and then something else happens later, and I don't think that's something that should be used to pre-emptively tell any particular party they are not welcome. (Unless you're CCP. Then you can tell anyone anything and CONCORD them if they don't listen. That's fine.)

(Personally, I prefer people actually roleplaying partycrashers and surprise allies over people being partycrashers and surprise allies without much thought to RP about it, obviously, but also both of those to people suddenly inventing convoluted backstories that don't fit theis established play as an "excuse" to get involved, instead of just being what they are. There's been very little of that last in this show, which is great. I love EVE best when it bases on actual history between players / player entities, and I too like subtle plays within small groups over these shows as my mainstay of RP. But I want to stress that these are my preferences, not a comment on the right way to play EVE.)

[Samira Kernher]

[mod]Moderation discussion that began in this thread was moved to the appropriate forum.[/mod]

[Silas Vitalia]

War never changes

Agree with Samira as usual; it's always more fun to be fighting with/against people you know/have history with, much less fun when 'x' group brings disproportionate numbers and firepower to an event to blow it out of the water.

There's always that tricky equation where the tiny RP pool wants dev involvement for storylines, but the more an event gets promoted the larger the derpsquads are going to be who show up to shit all over local and the event.

So yea all the usual stuff about welcoming people and getting more people in the pool, but it's also ok to be frustrated when you've been working on interaction and plotz (tm) with lots of people and then random bored FC with tons of people show up to shit on things and squash everyone.  Such is EVE.