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[Deitra Vess]

One would hope CCP steps in and dictated that "no a freightor can't breach a planetary surface" (a different tangant: isn't trit not stable enough to enter an atmosphere thus their lore explaination for why we couldn't enter planets' atmosphere? Thought it said that somewhere) or better yet they get popped by rkn forces on the way there. Realistically this would be the same as me deciding to invade Amarr for the hell of it and the Imperial navy ignoring thousands of soldiers who they are at war with land unimpeeded, it makes little logical sense.

[kalaratiri]

The frieghter's pilot is in FW which immediately makes him an active target for a lot of the Amarr bloc, and he's timed and dated the attempt which gives plenty of prep time for anyone outside of FW to get a dec in.

It feels to me that he's really hoping to have people come oppose him; this would be the best opportunity for Amarr/Min conflict over an actual storyline for years. I get the impression that he doesn't expect to actually make it to the planet, and is instead hoping to get a nice fight out of it between Amarr defenders and his escort.

[Ferra Orta]

Kala and a few others are getting the point of all this. Many folks are just sitting and acting like the heart of the RP community while doing everything they can to shoot this down. Shoot the freighter down instead, it's going to be a free target, you've time to batphone in who ever or hire mercs like some of you like to do.

This is content, both in-game and RP-wise. It's more than most folks dare to attempt and it's NOT a far stretch to say that a freighter can sit in orbit to act as a command location for the entire operation when it is to be guarded by a fleet of militia ships. We're not expecting that if we manage to hold the ground for a full hour or so that we'll have saved every single slave on Kahah III, or even a majority. 90% of the points and accusations I've read so far against this being feasible are nothing more than a lazy excuse to avoid having to do anything to prevent this from happening.

If you consider yourself a supporter of the RP community in EvE then you'd be supporting this rather than shooting it down, it's been well thought out and there is no part of it that is "god modding" the scene to go how we want. We're setting a grounds for RP and content, that is all we're doing with this.

Quit shitposting on the forums, pick a side and fight. Even find some other way to get involved. Though really, a lot of you need to get off your high horses and support the community rather than acting like you're above it. None of you speak for CCP and so far they have not commented on this, so all you can do is theory craft right now about what is feasible and not.

Like I said, all we're aiming for is content. If the freighter survives and manages to get out alive then we will NOT be claiming that we have saved every single slave on the planet, merely a sizable and believable number of them. If we are blown to bits and fail miserably? Then it was a great fun event regardless and a worthwhile effort from the true freedom fighters of Matar, those who chose to take action and support their character's morals rather than OOCly sit around and nit pick reasons as to why they think this is dumb.

Support it and help out, or go huff and puff in your little circles.

PS- It's nice to see so many defending this too, you've got our thanks. A lot of thought, planning and ISK has went into making this happen.

[Samira Kernher]

If the freighter survives and manages to get out alive then we will NOT be claiming that we have saved every single slave on the planet, merely a sizable and believable number of them.

This is the issue. The only thing victory in space demonstrates is victory in space. Whether or not the army actually gets to the surface or rescues anyone is up to CCP, as it has been for every other player action that has been done with regards to this event since it started.

No matter how much effort and money has gone into an RP event, ultimately a CCP arc is a CCP arc. They're the DMs, as it were.

90% of the points and accusations I've read so far against this being feasible are nothing more than a lazy excuse to avoid having to do anything to prevent this from happening.

The majority of people complaining about it aren't people that would act against it. Many are people that have already been participating in efforts to help the slaves already. The accusations are legitimate worries about the threat of opening the proverbial floodgates. The moment something like this works, is the moment EVE becomes a game where we are all apparently able to land armies on planets. I hope you can understand why people feel we need to be careful with things like this: It's a slippery slope.

I'll repeat that I do think the idea behind this event is good. I think content generation is good, especially when it's in space! I'm just saying, if/when you succeed, what counts as op success should probably be something to the effect of, "We successfully broke through capsuleer loyalist forces and have launched landing craft from the freighter." From there, the final results are determined by CCP.

[Ferra Orta]

I get your points Samira, really. I agree that the final outcome should be down to CCP to decide should we win the space fight and succeed with the general idea behind the plan. My main issue is simply how sick I am of the "inner circle" of the RP community, honestly. Lost count of how many RPers have been chased away by the elitist attitudes and immediate criticism for trying to create content and such, it's largely why I stick to comfortable groups for RP in EvE, not because I break lore or have ideas too crazy or dumb in the eyes of the majority of RPers, but because of the attitudes. Unless it's a "ball/social gathering" or a political debate in the IGS channel, I never see nor hear of real RP/IG-content being driven like this, it's a shame.

PIE/SFRIM and UK seem to be the only ones that properly seem to push a parallel line matching IC and IG.
EDIT: and a couple other groups of course, generalizing a bit.

People could be a lot more constructive - like your response there was to me, which is much appreciated considering my tone and attitude in the post.

[Deitra Vess]

You do realize that some characters would take a situation where they feel their people are needlessly being brought to die would oppose that right? Some shit posting maybe but alot of it seems like rational responses to basically "I'm going to send thousands of your kin to die to make a statement with very little possible positive outcome." Consider whatever I say shit posting all ya want, but it's definitely the response I'd imagine her making.

[Ferra Orta]

You do realize that some characters would take a situation where they feel their people are needlessly being brought to die would oppose that right? Some shit posting maybe but alot of it seems like rational responses to basically "I'm going to send thousands of your kin to die to make a statement with very little possible positive outcome." Consider whatever I say shit posting all ya want, but it's definitely the response I'd imagine her making.

Honestly I've never had a problem with that, it's true. Though it's not what Ferra believes. That argument is not what I'm getting at in these OOC posts really. We wouldn't be attempting this if we didn't think that there could be success from it.

[kalaratiri]

As far as

I deploy 500 troops

Well I deploy 10,000 troops!

competitiveness goes, I think it needs to be handled much like the "agreed upon rules" for hand-to-hand combat RP, or any competitive RP that takes place outside the theatre of space.

Players stop RPing in the form of "I do this" and start using "I attempt to do this". In combat RP this would usually look like "X swings a punch at Y" and it's up to Y to decide if it hits or not. Obviously this requires both sides to be willing to (literally) take a few punches, which (imo) is why this form of RP is so rarely done.

However in this case there is a third party choosing which punches do and don't connect, and as CCP are so deeply aware of wanting to avoid favoritism, I imagine it's a reasonably fair umpire.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that as long as players are saying "I attempt to do something" and allowing CCP to confirm whether or not it actually takes place rather than speaking in absolutes, there really isn't a problem.

[Deitra Vess]

It would be fairly obvious that anti air and such would be present as modern day countries have it, thousands of years in the future that practice would disappear? That's where half my "ugh the RMS is slacking" comments are coming from. People are definitely throwing ooc stuff in which ya they should try to be more creative in explaining those thoughts I guess. More less alot of the flak your getting is justified, seems like people aren't taking creative license to explain it for whatever reason.

Added:

The idea is great, it does seem polarizing in the minmatar camp which should be expected.

[Teinyhr]

Well fuck, that's the first time I've been called "RP Inner Circle." Dunno if I should be happy or ashamed. Probably ashamed since I've never wanted to drive anyone away from the roleplaying side of the game, quite the opposite.

Thank the Amarr Lord you're here Samira, because you said exactly what I wanted to say and quite likely with lot less cursing. I acknowledge that my first reaction and how I worded it was not the best one. I'm not against creating content, but I was really worried on how it was apparently going to play out, as elsewhere discussed, I was worried it was going to be "/me does thing" instead of "/me attempts to do thing".
Like, for example, I haven't been part of the FW apparently in about 7 years, neither did I remember that U'K is part of it apparently, so it honestly didn't cross my mind that any attempt going at the freighter without suiciding would be possible (not that it bringing a neutral alt wouldn't still be possible..) As such, my view on the event has changed, indeed, there is great RP conflict potential there, now that you brought that up.

I would however like to raise a point that, even while Mizhara isn't my favourite character or a person by a long shot because believe it or not I've butted heads with her over similar issues in the past... That saying that she doesn't bring her RP IG is just.. Well, only she can really say what it is, but I'll just say patently untrue.
As well, I've spent considerable time around Kahah, Yulai etc. over this event, and uncharacteristical amount of ISK considering I don't have null income and I am a singular person, so that jab felt a bit unfair.

[Mizhara]

None of you speak for CCP and so far they have not commented on this, so all you can do is theory craft right now about what is feasible and not.

Or, you know, we have enough experience and knowledge about this setting to be able to say some things with confidence. Let's have a look at Capsuleers vs Navies straight from Falcon:

Even the largest alliances and coalitions of capsuleers in New Eden are tiny in comparison to the armed forces of the Empires.

Ironically, for all the destruction that goes on at the hands of capsuleers, the largest fleets seen in action from independent capsuleers are minuscule in comparison to the size of the faction navies.

Fly to Amarr, and head on over to take a look at the honour guard there.

Now consider that's a single FLIGHT of ships. Not a squadron, or a wing. Just a single flight. That gives a slight sense of scale.

Then for reference, let's look at the Gallente Federation, which relies heavily on automation and has the smallest navy in terms of active service personnel.

FEDCAF - the Federal Combined Armed Forces, or The Combined Armed Forces of the Gallente Federal Union to give them their full name, has roughly 97.9 billion - not million - personnel in total.

The logistics involved are astronomical. Everything from the GFPD to tripwire, Customs, the FIO, the Navy... logistics, maintenance, fleet, administration, everything, all working together. Policing and securing six regions, fifty-four constellations with patrols on every highsec gate and roaming deadspace/tripwire patrols and installations 23/7/365.

These are massive, bloated forces that are so heavily entrenched and technologically advanced that they don't actively see independents as a threat.

The context for this is all of capsuleer nullsec going up against one Empire. Thousands and thousands of capsuleers, with all their hundreds and hundreds of Titans, their super carriers, their capitals and force auxiliaries, their battleships blobs and so on...

... doesn't even register as a threat.

Yeah, the Royal Khanid Navy would take on all of Ushra'Khan, all of Electus Matari, all of all of us and turn it all into a smear in space by sneezing lightly in our general direction. You know, if CCP could dedicate people to sit around and throw Dev Actors with GM commands at us whenever we decide to make an event. Of course, they can't do that, and thus there's limitations to how much they can actually enforce what the actual lore of Capsuleer vs Navy capabilities are.

It really does not make sense to start creating fortresses on hostile planets, dumping freighterfuls of troops and so on. Lorewise, we are so heavily outmatched in such contests that the only way we can possibly actually do things, is staying under the radar. Be effective with small numbers, support the actual baseliner forces that are actually doing things, the slave uprisings and so on. Be force multipliers, drop some armaments, provide intel and so on and so forth. Watch troop movements, help resistance/freedom fighters sabotage them maybe, etc.

All relatively small stuff, can still have an impact, and doesn't open the floodgates giving us crazy power that we really don't have, and isn't lorebreaking. Things that are too big would by any reasonable metric be responded to with force we can't possibly hope to match.

My problem will never be content generation. I've spent basically this entire year at war with all of AmarrBloc, and I've fought and won (and lost) in high, low and null against their smallest to biggest corps and alliances. You want to create content, I'll throw billions your way and fund it if need be. Go for it, I fuckin' love it.

... just don't try to break the game while you're doing it. There's literally nothing that says you need to drop a freighterload of forces onto a planet, in violation of every piece of lore we have on that kind of thing. You've seen what CCP already responds favorably to, and can continue in the same scale and vein without doing any harm at all, and you can create the exact same amount of content bringing in something else in a freighter, or whatever. Hell, go shoot the PIE alts' Astrahus, for that matter. They anchored a content generator too.

Trying to set the precedent that capsuleers can suddenly drop freighterloads of troops planetside is just... unnecessary, opens up all kinds of cans of worms, doesn't actually provide any content but does invite all sorts of problems and...

... well, it's just plain pointless. There's countless ways to create potential content with the exact same ingredients, without breaking the world doing so.

I'll let that 'too lazy to have to do anything to prevent this from happening' thing be, because it's kind of funny.

[Mizhara]

I wonder if I'm in the RP Elite Community or something? It'd be kind of funny, given that I'm pretty much never in sync with the various cliques and communities around here.

Edit: Well shit, apparently I am.

You head the Inner Circle
obviously
everyone submits to Mizrule

*bows and worships*
we are not worthy

Why did no one tell me? I'm always the last person to find out this stuff. Fine.
I AM THE SENATE!

[Ferra Orta]

All we're trying to say is that this is an attempt really. CCP gets final say in it's success or failure, but if you want to oppose it IC/IG then get in a ship and come fight the freighter and it's protection contingency. We're trying to create some real IG content here is all, there is no competition intended to "one up" anyone else who's been attempting similar things on Kahah III.

As for my comment about the inner circle, that was left for interpretation I guess, though I most certainly am not pointing the finger at anyone individually as being part of it or involved in what I'm griping about in relation to it. Don't take it to heart Tein, I wasn't pointing at you.

Also, Mizhara, I'm aware of how things are with the faction's navies and armies. They can react if they want, it's Khanid space and TLF/UK aren't shot on sight there, if it were meant to be, it would be. We'll see what happens in terms of this becoming CCP spawned PvE or not, but what ever the case it's going ahead and is happening. CCP will get the final say on the outcome of all this, but the event itself is going ahead. Like it or lump it. Banish us from the heart of the RP community for it if you all want to, or what ever, turn a blind eye, a cold shoulder. We're creating content and chances for RP side-by-side. The ball is in the Amarr players park as far as we're concerned and the outcome in the hands of CCP to determine what comes of it should the Matari effort be successful. It's a legal engagement according to CONCORD too.

I'm done arguing it, we're "attempting" this and it's all in motion now anyway. Just do us a favor and rally up some Amarr Militia or something so we're not sitting around staring at a freighter for an hour or so.

Have a little leniency and open your horizons a bit more than "nuh it can't happen because reereereeasons." Give folks trying to create stuff like this a break, the community could really benefit from things like this and semi-pre-planned engagements like this to really bolster the IG/IC connection for RPers and non-RPers alike. A good narrative like this deserves it.

EDIT: I'm honestly not trying to cause so much conflict in the community with everything I'm trying to stand for here. I know a lot of you might be thinking that and so far I've no ill will against any of the folks who've debated all this with me. I'm just trying to fight for this to have a chance to be accepted as something that is happening, you don't have to agree with it being a smart move, it's likely not. Though it's a move that the characters involved are passionate about and are giving it their all - they're not concerned about looking stupid if they fail, they're only concerned with saving the lives of as many slaves as they can before they're ended by the Khanid regime. We're Ushra'khan and freedom fighters, many of which extremist inclined when it comes to the good fight, what else did you expect?

[Teinyhr]

Well obviously it has to go ahead, it'd be weird if you'd suddenly go "nah, changed our minds" IC.

Edit: and well, I guess I need to get a Tornado or something to shoot at PIE/SFRIM essentially we're on the same side, and maybe I could piggyback my mercs (whats left of them) out of Kahah with this. Maybe not. We'll see. Altough hmm, since you guys are at war with each other nobody is likely going suspect and I'm not at war with anyone so I guess I'll have to sit this one out.

[Ferra Orta]

Teinyhr, we've got a Logi wing who would only go suspect, not criminal for helping in the fight.

Edit: And there's time for a cheap 50m or so wardec against PIE or SFRIM. I'll pay.