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[Ukeko Ahrzi]

Log-in rewards aren't nefarious? Just because something is ubiquitous doesn't make it any less manipulative and coaxing more log-ins through attendance rewards rather than making the actual game worth logging in to regardless of 'rewards' is pretty indicative of where the priorities are. A hint: Not quality, consumer benefits or long-term health of the game.

They're outright designed to tickle the addiction mechanics in people's brains, and that sort of callous manipulation leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

You mean the event they've had going for years?

[Mizhara]

No. I'm talking about the log-in rewards they only recently started doing. The event freebies never tried to manipulate you like these things.

[Samira Kernher]

Pretty much. Like the idea of daily quests, their whole purpose is encouraging addictive habits. It might be industry standard at this point, but that doesn't change what they're designed to do.

[kalaratiri]

Players who log in are more likely to stay logged in and play the game than players who don't log in. Encouraging them to log in is just common sense. A small number of time limited login rewards a few times a year does not strike me as an "addictive" practice.

[Mitara Newelle]

But i NEEEEEED my fireworks!!!!!

[Mizhara]

A small number of time limited login rewards a few times a year does not strike me as an "addictive" practice.

It's quite literally designed to be an addictive mechanic. It's the reason log-in incentive mechanics exist in the first place, because they trigger the same Pavlovian bullshit most consistent reward mechanics do. "Click the butan! Click play! GOOD BOY! Have some SP/Fireworks/literally anything/shit in your hands and clap." It doesn't matter how simplistic it might feel or how above it you feel you are, these are very simple mechanics that quite simply work and that is why they're used.

It's manipulation, no ifs or buts about it. You might feel it's acceptable manipulation, but I'm not particularly into that kind of bullshit because anyone who feels like manipulating their customers is the right thing to do have already taken the first step towards moral and ethical failure: Thinking of and treating people as things (subcounts, activity numbers, etc etc).

"Encouraging them to log in" is perfectly fine... if you do it by making the act of logging in rewarding without being manipulative shitlers abusing addiction mechanics to do so. Make the game worth logging in to without the skinner boxes, the manipulation and the bullshit and voila. No one sane would have even the slightest problem here, but hey...

... that'd require them to put in more than the absolute minimum amount of effort, so that'll never happen.

[MakotoPriano]

But we're not talking loot boxes, slots, or any other sort of gambling. I mean, I guess I understand not wanting to be 'tricked,' but providing incentive for certain behavior (logging in, engaging with events, etc) is something that seems like it's honestly best practice, and not really something to moralize about.

Certainly, CCP should also be working on improving gameplay, but this seems like low-hanging fruit, something to increase activity levels. That it'll happen to also be live when they've got a new and possibly fairly complicated, pretty seasonal event going online seems fair.

I guess I just don't see how the sky is falling with this campaign.

[Morwen Lagann]

The whole purpose is to get players to log in, undock, and interact with each other in some fashion.

Providing an incentive to log in (free stuff!) puts players in a spot where their next decision is whether to undock or not.

Providing an incentive to undock (time-sensitive event goodies in exchange for low-effort in-space activity) then puts players in the position to interact or compete with others, which is kind of the point of an MMO.

[Mizhara]

And none of that changes that the means in question, daily log-in rewards, remain manipulative addiction mechanics. It really doesn't matter how harmless anyone makes it out to be, it is still manipulative addiction mechanics. There's absolutely no way around it. There's no rewriting it, no different interpretation of it. It's the simplest unalloyed fact: It is manipulation and it is designed to cause addiction mechanics to trigger in your brain. Designed to.

You don't design that sort of thing by accident. They sat down and they decided they needed a way to manipulate their users. They worked it out and implemented it.

Of course it's not the sky falling, but it's yet another drop. Among other drops. And more drops. And more drops. Cups overfloweth eventually, and this is one of those hundreds of little things that show more and more that CCP are putting pretty much all their efforts entirely into short-term boosting for a short-term pay off and gives exactly zero fucks about the long-term health of the game because they're going to bail out as soon as it all runs out of steam.

Trivializing this pattern does no one any favors.

[Samira Kernher]

What Mizhara says. That being said, most MMO mechanics are designed with the same idea in mind. Making things super grind heavy for example is also all about exploiting addictive tendencies. MMO developers want players to stick around and pay for subscriptions, so the devs tend to incorporate time-wasting activities with a carrot always dangling over the next little hill in order to keep their customers hooked.

Hell, EVE was doing this even before these login events. Skill queue caps were the original means. Similar idea: By making people have shorter queues, they'd need to log in to update them. Once logged in, they might play more. Once playing more, they might subscribe, and subscription means money.

It's not necessarily bad by itself, mind. But it is designed for that purpose, whether or not you see it as a problem. Same thing with daily quests, or BD's daily logins, or the Agency events, etc. And it can be an issue when you start feeling forced to do it because the rewards are sweet enough (that's the addiction part. You might not want to log in, but oh there's that reward and I really should get it. This is especially prevalent with daily quests. You quickly come to despise them... but you feel obliged to do them anyway). But what I see it more as a sign of is EVE drifting away from its sandbox nature. Sandboxes tend to encourage people to login by giving people the tools to create their own content. Constant content infusion (always an Agency event around the corner, ever more new ships, etc) and login tricks like reward weekends and so on make EVE feel like it's looking to linear games for inspiration. That's a little concerning - though, mind, of all the shit CCP has been doing, minor marketing things like this are probably the least egregious to me.

[Mizhara]

of all the shit CCP has been doing, minor marketing things like this are probably the least egregious to me.

Well yes, it's hardly the worst thing. The subject was just raised and trivialized. But what Samira says, most of it.

[Silas Vitalia]

Yes agree with Samira.

EVE is also operating in a very crowded game space right now where shorter-term, addiction oriented freemium multiplayer games are eating their lunch.

Their reaction to these competitors seems to be over the years to start tilting towards these sorts of freemium models, where you can pay $$ for things to instantly satiate a need.  Pay for ISK, pay for vanity items, pay for skills, whatever, just like the rest of the industry.

I happen to think it's shit, but I've been thinking this since the first time Halo or whatever tried to sell me a map pack on xbox live after I had already purchased a supposedly 'full' game. I'm old enough to have cut my teeth on a 'pay once up front and get it all' model for all of my gaming starting with 5 1/2" floppy disks.   The industry thinks otherwise and that ship has long sailed for 90% of mass market games out there.

I feel it would be a much richer experience if everyone were on the same playing field paying the same subscription fee and nothing else to be provided a big sandbox that was left well enough alone, but I don't know if that model can even work for anything right now.

There's so much fundamentally wrong with the economy in the game and isk fountains that this stuff is all more philosophical anyway.

Back to the OP though it seems the moves towards freemium design ques are increasing.  It's a slow drip until it isn't.

[Silas Vitalia]

At least EVE isn't as bad as the latest from Capcom lollll  https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/12/12/street-fighter-v-adds-adverts/

[Nissui]

I see Dr. Zaius is now a selectable character in SFV, wow. 

For real tho, I won't miss video games.

[Synthia]

One wonders why some people continue playing, if everything is so distasteful to them.