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[Mizhara]

That said, one of the issues we face is that once plot is written into game mechanics, it becomes a fixed point. After all, changing incursions, FW, etc, would potentially destroy existing and fairly major niches in the game

Nah, these are no more fixed points than any other development in a world. The only reason they're stuck is because they tried to make games out of these plot development rather than a world, which got the actual story progression equally stuck. The whole Sansha nonsense was so promising early on, then it turns out it was just a fucking excuse for the latest "raid" and they painted themselves into a corner where they couldn't actually finish the storyline without killing the raid. Sansha is thus stuck in herpaderp mode unable to progress or fail. The exact same thing is what we've been seeing with all the story developments since.

This is wholly unnecessary and downright lazy. There's no reason not to make things like these at the very least cyclical. They've got the mechanics and scripts set up, so there's no reason they can't finish the Sansha storyline and kill off Incursions for six months and then with not much effort replace it with a new storyline with another faction etc, utilizing a similar mechanic for the bears to farm for a while before that storyline is concluded etc.

Faction Warfare doesn't at all have to be the way it is. You can shake it up massively with political developments in New Eden. Suddenly the relations sour between former allies and it turns into a four way for a while. Then six months later the politics change and now it's a 3v1, later a 2v2, then 3v1 then free-for-all and so on and so forth as the story demands. Let the world decide what the mechanics need to be, as the world develops. Add in more sov mechanics to make it matter and utilizing lowsec becomes attractive to players, rather than just the pewpew deep end in between highsec and nullsec bearing.

It wouldn't destroy anything. It'd disrupt it. Shake up the sandbox so all the old stale and fucking boring sandcastles that are taking up all the space gets knocked down and players can build new ones and have reason to actually fucking do shit.

Nope. Trilbyhats and Derp Jove, in a stagnant and dead New Eden.

[Silas Vitalia]

Devs have all the tools they need for boosting NPC and NPC / Player content.

The only real issue is that ccp has been perma-cowed and frightened into not "upsetting" their 0.0 masters or carebear ratting players.

If they were remotely interested in keeping the game interesting they would have to be willing to disrupt both high and null sec, and they won't do it.

-Dynamic security status for systems based on plots^tm.  Oh no Jita getting blockaded, oh no Amarr under attack/whatever. Opportunities for both sides and third sides and cunning marketers all over for a million different plots.

-NPC death gangs representing factions and empires to kick over sandcastles and cause headaches.   Like our man zorg says, you gotta smash it all up into little pieces and then look at all the activity that generates.  That they've let null blocks be this static and un-smashed and poisoning the core gameplay for 15 years is beyond stupid. 

Basic choose your own adventure A or B plots to effect game world.  Think the Caldari Titan event but an actual different plot for A or B side winning.  Writers could spend hell, one day plotting out a tree of A/B events and spawn basic NPC fleets to get the ball rolling.  None of these concepts are new in gaming, from escort missions to seek and destroy to defend the castle.  Just add NPCs and players and go from there.

[Nissui]

The only real issue is that ccp has been perma-cowed and frightened into not "upsetting" their 0.0 masters or carebear ratting players.

My suspicion is that, some time ago (maybe during Dust development?), CCP took on a lot of outside investment in order to keep its financials viable. They steered some uncertain waters, took some losses, but reached something approaching a profitable business model with modern monetization. However, in the process they inherited a monkey which is now planted firmly on their back: shareholder ROI.

So... to use Miz's term, disrupting the playerbase with content that is perceived as world-changing is likely looked on by the holders of the purse strings as provocative in the face of a niche playerbase that is prone to revolt. I think they, not players, are the ultimate source of CCP trepidation.

With stuff like IP lore and world news now an afterthought, all I can say with regard to the OP is that personal storylines and science-based fanfic are the last bastions of interest for yours truly. There are still organizations and players who can make those things accessible and fun.

[Louella Dougans]

That said, for those who don't feel strongly about 'GRR HAT <opposing faction>' stuff, Drifters, Triglavians, Rogue Drones, etc, give us something to play with.

Yeah, but, I guess my feelings are more like...

Okay, the Drifters - they shot Empress Jamyl, and attacked the Empire, okay there's a reason to engage them and interact with the content there - Retribution and all that. Which is fair enough.

The Triglavians, it's like... if they're at war with the Drifters, they might be an ally to the Empire. Maybe. But, in any case, there's not been much official word from the Imperial authorities on whether they are friend or foe.

And a lot of stuff recently seems to be behind impenetrable deep conspiracies that are only hinted at in chronicles and stuff - the SoE, CONCORD, the Drifters, the Drones, the Triglavians, they're all Up To Something™, and whatever it is, it's wrapped in a lot of enigmas and mysteries.

I think I'm not smart enough to make any sense of it, it all turns to mush that I don't understand. I'm too dumb to follow people's lines of thought on the conspiracies, even when it's explained several times over.

[Mizhara]

That's because there's nothing to really build a conspiracy around. At this point, I'm reasonably sure CCP doesn't have it anywhere near locked down, because they're giving too little to even make it interesting and mysterious. Thus, any 'conspiracy theory', no matter how Charlie, will inevitably fall somewhere on the infinitely long spectrum of "wholly believable" to "batfuck insane" and be perfectly fucking valid for all we know.

This is something that's tricky to do in games, granted, but there have been vastly better examples elsewhere. For a 'mystery' to be engaging in games like these, they need to be fed a little here and there, and eventually resolved. Otherwise, it's more like a rash than a caress, in terms of how it deals with players. Worse yet, it has to have a commensurate pay-off, or it will just serve to generate disappointed backlash.

Now drink your Ovaltine.

Hahaaah, what am I saying? It's already in the chemtrails, suckas.

[MakotoPriano]

Certainly agreed that there could be more done to provide in-world knowledge of what the Triglavian Collective is, and why the empires went into, "BURN IT ALL DOWN!" mode over it. The relative lack of in-world news the recent past doesn't help.

Really, almost all we have is from the tickers in the extra-long Scope they did a while back.

[Mizhara]

The latest little IGS conversation with Aria reminded me of something else, and I confirmed it with someone else to confirm it's not just me having too skewed an outlook.

This kind of "grand outsider threat" storyline is never going to properly work. It's just not doable, sans unfathomable advances in AI and so on, because they're represented by NPCs. If there's one thing an NPC is never going to truly be in this game, it's a viable threat. Yeah, add some weird-ass limitations (you can only fight this in a frigate! You can only enter here in a X Class Ship etc) and it means you'll have to be slightly past the level of 'concussed marmot' in order to take it on, but quite literally the only threat NPCs will ever realistically pose to a player is numbers or ridiculous plot armor. So these grand terrible threats get wiped out in droves by suicide dessies, or slaughtered by the dozen in HACs and whatever else at a ratio of omfgsomanydead to one. The fairly sizable Sansha fleets are on farm with nary a casualty, the Drifters have been 'solved' and Abyssal Space is spelunked thoroughly by solo pilots within a bunch of already imposed limitations.

These aren't believable threats. They never will be.

"Original Eve" dealt with this fact by setting into lore that capsuleers are the pinnacle of combat capability. This worked, because the 'threat' if any was other nations/factions with capsuleers of their own. In any combat scenario versus the Empire, Miz herself would be on the lookout for PIE etc because they're the believable threats that make the enemy something to worry about. In a combat scenario where the Republic was up against the Driftglavisanshas, Miz'd barely bother paying attention. They're not capsuleers, they're cannon fodder.

Basically, this explains to me why I never was able to ever take these storylines seriously at all. There's no believable threat or conflict to be had, when a single capsuleer is vastly more dangerous than anything an NPC can ever be. This is why I feel these woOooOooOoo spoopy Derp Jove/Trilobyte storylines are massive mistakes as far as Eve's direction goes. Not only is it departing heavily from the kind of Cyberpunk but in Space feel Eve once had, it's vastly less believable, immersive and interesting than continuing the progress in the storylines of the New Eden factions themselves.

Quite simply because all of those can be actual threats, while the NPCs never will simply because anything we'll eventually put on farm is demonstrably toothless compared to even a single enemy egger with a scram.

[Morwen Lagann]

Won't lie: you lot are making it real hard to want to even poke my head back in.

[Mizhara]

Yeah, you might as well wait for Star Citizen. They got Ventures now.

[Morwen Lagann]

I heard about that one, and it definitely did not endear RSI or Scam Citizen to me at all.

I'm good where I am. At least I didn't go full retard and dump money into Bless.

[Korsavius]

Don't let all these sad and grr thoughts get to you morlags, come visit us soon 

EVE still has certain gems in it in terms of RP, although most of those gems are player-made or player-led (which I'm totally fine with).

[Silas Vitalia]

Minor point to contest about above; the entire playerbase represents -independent- capsuleers who have gotten their pilot's licenses and who may go back and work for empires (loyalists, mission runners, etc), but aren't necessarily in the empire navies proper. 

The NPC navies have thousands of capsuleers we don't ever interact with, and that's not who you are pew pewing for missions or belt rats or whatever, usually just the dev actors who are actual other capsuleers.  It's why you can kill hundreds of baseliner ships without breaking a sweat, you are going up against baseliner ships and crews.   

Limitations in the dev toolkits and mission scripting from the beginning of the game probably have more to do with this than plotting, etc.  Gotta make your player feel big and strong pew pewing lots of ships and blowing them up.

The way the lore USED to be, and I'm not up on things lately, was that the entire eve playerbase and all the 0.0 power blocs represented a tiny fraction of actual empire navies and their capabilities.  IE if the Caldari State wants to go shit on Cloud Ring or Querious or whatever, whatever player bloc goonbearhoneyswarmwhatever would be easily brushed aside (according to old lore).  I think they've retconned this a bit over the years like the null blocs are now suddenly scurry and strong enough to scare the empires?

That never made any sense to me, none of the 4 empires would train a bunch of capsuleers and say 'hey go have fun and multiply and challenge our rule.'

I always reasoned that by signing the Yulai accords, the empires all agreed to 'release' a tiny portion of their capsuleer graduates as independents. 

It's like if you today got trained by the US AirForce for years and they spend millions of dollars on you to fly jets they dont let you graduate and then hop on the first flight to mercenary life and fly for the Taliban or whatever.

But    gotta goose the null egos

[Vlad Cetes]

Minor point to contest about above; the entire playerbase represents -independent- capsuleers who have gotten their pilot's licenses and who may go back and work for empires (loyalists, mission runners, etc), but aren't necessarily in the empire navies proper. 

The NPC navies have thousands of capsuleers we don't ever interact with, and that's not who you are pew pewing for missions or belt rats or whatever, usually just the dev actors who are actual other capsuleers.  It's why you can kill hundreds of baseliner ships without breaking a sweat, you are going up against baseliner ships and crews.   

Limitations in the dev toolkits and mission scripting from the beginning of the game probably have more to do with this than plotting, etc.  Gotta make your player feel big and strong pew pewing lots of ships and blowing them up.

The way the lore USED to be, and I'm not up on things lately, was that the entire eve playerbase and all the 0.0 power blocs represented a tiny fraction of actual empire navies and their capabilities.  IE if the Caldari State wants to go shit on Cloud Ring or Querious or whatever, whatever player bloc goonbearhoneyswarmwhatever would be easily brushed aside (according to old lore).  I think they've retconned this a bit over the years like the null blocs are now suddenly scurry and strong enough to scare the empires?

That never made any sense to me, none of the 4 empires would train a bunch of capsuleers and say 'hey go have fun and multiply and challenge our rule.'

I always reasoned that by signing the Yulai accords, the empires all agreed to 'release' a tiny portion of their capsuleer graduates as independents. 

It's like if you today got trained by the US AirForce for years and they spend millions of dollars on you to fly jets they dont let you graduate and then hop on the first flight to mercenary life and fly for the Taliban or whatever.

But    gotta goose the null egos

Definitely true back in the old school days. I wish they would release some Civilization esque lore (what the empires expenditures are (broken down), how much they produce, where/how they do most of their mining).

[Mizhara]

I think they've retconned this a bit over the years like the null blocs are now suddenly scurry and strong enough to scare the empires?

It's the natural evolution of things. The Empires are largely at peace. Have a few decades of the Military eggers getting to sit in their sims and follow rote doctrine, while the outer regions and lowsec are downright churning with perpetual warfare, development and you'll end up with decades of experience and innovation versus the stagnant and undeveloped military capsuleers. They acknowledged this in the fluff text of Force Auxiliaries, that they were created as a result of the experience and combat developments in null overshadowing the Empires in warfare skill and experience.

Freelance capsuleers basically having a never-ending amount of ships to lose or kill, an ingrained love for warfare and a perpetual and never-ending firestorm to forge themselves further in would of course end up with the outer region capsuleers quite simply just being that much better at it than the Empires. You'll have experts with ten thousand+ hours of actual logistics and supply line experience, combat experience, fitting experience, and tactics/strategy that is constantly iterated upon and sharpened as they continuously clash with others having the exact same.

When do you think an Empire egger last saw a capital brawl? When do you think they saw a clash of hundreds of capsuleers on each side with combined arms fleets split into multiple wings of bombers, magic wands, mainline battleships and so on and so forth? When did they last have to punch way above their weightclass in a small-gang scenario? When it comes to war... well, the ones that have been at war for ages will be the ones that are best at it. So again, we end up with the situation that the freelancer capsuleers remain the pinnacle of this stuff. Especially since independent capsuleers aren't restricted by "milspec" (read: Lowest bidder that manage to scrape by the "don't explode from the stresses of undocking" standard) gear, or the military bureaucracy governing doctrines and standards.

An independent capsuleer at their peak will have one to one vastly more wealth and resources behind them than any military egger, far more combat experience and they'll be so much more adaptable than someone limited by military standards.

The only real threat there is potentially sheer numbers, or CONCORD flipping the switch, not the combat prowess of the enemy.

[MakotoPriano]

Silas;

There's been some ebb-and-flow on the 'strength of the empires vs. independents' thing. I think CCP realized that giving hard numbers would never work, as suddenly 'billionaire!' is a thing many capsuleers are, and a dozen titans are no longer a thing of monumental power. So, instead, it's a loose concept of 'control.' Of course, even the lore on that is a bit haphazard, but-- well, when you've got a world written over two decades by a dozen different authors, things can be uneven.

Louella; on the original topic, I think we can all agree that more empire-y lore would be awesome.

I suspect some of us will have to agree to disagree on whether non-empire lore is interesting, given that the matter is a subjective one.

I will, however, say that suspension of disbelief is necessary either way, because we're engaging with a world where action is necessarily mediated by game mechanics, and sometimes reconciling lore and the client gets a bit funky. Like-- ship rebalances and remodels? Huhwha?