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[Ria Nieyli]

Well, unless you've wardecced my personal corp, CONCORD will get you if you shoot me in highsec too. FW is the perfect place to start out your PVP career and it certainly does have options for higher-level gameplay, if you choose to stay in it.

[ValentinaDLM]

Then why are -10 sec status characters able to dock in Empire space? Fac navies chase them all the same as opposing militia members.

I don't see why criminals should be allowed to dock either. Why should they?

[Ria Nieyli]

And people with -10 faction standing can dock in the respective faction's stations in highsec as well.

[Morwen Lagann]

Well, unless you've wardecced my personal corp, CONCORD will get you if you shoot me in highsec too.

Not true. Anyone in Galmil or Minmil can shoot you anywhere in EVE, legally, without needing to wardec your corp directly.

[Ria Nieyli]

Yes, because we're in a mutual wardec. Q.E.D

[Silas Vitalia]

Opinions vary, but people have talked down facwar since launch, as much was promised and not delivered, along with years of broken/abused mechanics and general abandonment as a feature by the devs.

[Elmund Egivand]

And as I already mentioned, FW doesn't carry as much consequence as, say, nullsec.

First off, the consequence of losing a FW system don't really hurt all that much. Inconvenient, perhaps, but not exactly something so painful it makes you want to rage quit. Losing a system in nullsec hurts ALOT MORE. In fact, you can even be kicked out of nullsec entirely (as has happened quite a bunch of times), and you can even kick people out of nullsec entirely (also happened a bunch of times). You do not get shite like that going in FW.

Secondly, there's also the lack of perceived solidarity in FW. If you are in Nullsec and you are a Goon, and everybody else who isn't red to you is also a Goon or allies. In FW, even if you guys are all militia, the guy who is blue to you can be somebody else you wouldn't be sharing your lunch with. Loyalists rubbing shoulders with somebody from the other side who is on this side for the sake of profit and will switch over at a moment's notice and etc.

Finally, there's the narrative angle as well. FW is one of those places where the narrative barely changes when anything happens. Losing all of your FW space to the other side? Your faction didn't lose, didn't suffer from economic consequence, didn't lose their minds, nope, nada, nothing. This is at odds with, say, nullsec or w-space where the side which loses actually do lose their assets, get a hit in the corp wallet, get a hit in the cash-flow, actually have their name wiped out of that particular chunk of nullsec/w-space.

Now put yourself in the boots of a third party who is observing the people in FW and the people in Nullsec and then form an impression. Personally, if I were that observer, I will conclude that FW pilots are playing some kind of sandbox freeroam game that only sometimes get together to get something done in the short term, while the guys in Null are playing games of Civ and will collectively lose their shit if somebody comes over to grab a couple of hexes that has all the good moon goo on it.

[Joshua Foiritain]

FW is a endless tug of war with no victory condition and no real effect on anything but itself. While many people may enjoy participating in it affects nothing and therefor many people are likely to value anything achieved within it as meaningless.

Basically CCP fucked up and gave us a terrible FW system.

[The Rook]

What's the victory condition in nullsec?
The involved numbers and prices are higher - although the majority of the assets involved are not individually owned.

[Joshua Foiritain]

What's the victory condition in nullsec?
The involved numbers and prices are higher - although the majority of the assets involved are not individually owned.

Getting evicted is a pretty clear sign of having lost.

[The Rook]

So it's the same victory condition.

[Silas Vitalia]

Players tend to assign 'value' to game objective and ships based on how relatively valuable they are, IE you are more upset losing your titan than losing your frigate, because you might save up for months for your titan, but you might make enough to fully fit dozens of facwar ships in a few hours.

People who look down on facwar do so because the time investment/assets at risk tend to be lower-tier ships that don't 'hurt' when lost.  So for them screwing around and losing a bunch of cruisers or frigates, etc is not high stakes leet enough, right?

[The Rook]

Pretty much.
Although one can question whether on an individual level an expensive fully SRP'd ship hurts more than a cheap one you personally bought or less.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Late to this thread, but I'll add something I think that isn't yet mentioned but critical to the topic being discussed:

The reason system control is felt to matter so little is that it is, by and large these days, outside the control of entities that actually care about the continued success of their faction. Instead, it depends in large part upon the pendulum-like allegiances of large-scale LP farmers who participate solely to capture systems for the immediate monetary benefit.

Some of them are semipermanent residents who switch sides into pre-established holding corps, some are alts that are inactive and only 'wake up' at the right times, some are other lowsec/nullsec dwellers that join the most profitable side at a given time.

Contrast this to nullsec, where fighting is typically an ISK sink. Nobody ever got rich by fighting a sov war; they won by holding and exploiting the systems they capture.

This feeds a perception that taking a system doesn't matter, because the actual ability to hold it is largely outside your control.

[The Rook]

Are you talking about old or new nullsec, because entosing a system no one lives in is pretty much like plex farming without the payout.
Systems do matter - when a group lives in one it's pretty difficult to evict them and requires a coordinated effort, regardless where that is.

Regarding the perception this may be a combination of :bittervet: and the fact that every militia has someone vomiting over the IGS whenever they need some quick PR points about 'the liberation of random system'. In 9/10 cases it's not linked to any real combat action and concerns a system that's neither important to local pirates nor militia groups. Baseliners rejoice!