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[Lyn Farel]

The Minmatar tribes draw a lot of tropes from third world cultures seen today, mainly Africa, but also various other native cultures that today got more or less embroiled in the current globalization climate. It is only natural that people start first to take it as face value, and will try to picture african tribes, maori tribes, amerindians or everything with a strong either third world slum aspect, or either a strong alter-globalization with a hint of new-age/hippie sugarcoat about drum circles and native cultural fads.

The fact that especially early PF pictured the Minmatar with at least some of those tropes, like they don't tend to wear much clothes compared to everyone else (cf old chronicle illustrations about tattoos, or the Ray of Matar chronicle), especially when involved in their religious or traditional rituals, as well as simply showing their tattoos.. Well, it also doesn't help in that regard.

The Minmatar are not so easy to play since like for the Amarr, you have to conciliate a very alien culture to ours with strong native/medieval undertones that are easy to make, with a modern futuristic setting. I often see the Minmatar a bit like what you can see in the runner underworld of shadowrun, with their shamanistic rituals, scantily clad people full of tattoos and punk attitudes, but literally bathing into technology. Not that it has to be exactly like that, mind you, but I think it is a good example of blending native traditions with cyberpunk settings. And that is only for the plebs. Now then, it is even harder to do so with the upper classes and politicians. Probably a lot of inspiration to draw from indian traditional garbs and manners embroiled into modern politics.

[Skyweir Kinnison]

Thank you all for some very interesting insights. There's lots to think about, but the encouraging thing for me is that there is both some consistency in everyone's views, and also some strong indications of where the Minmatar may be developing.

I'm going to take Mizhara's advice and use this thread to examine Skyweir's journey of understanding. I'll draw down to focus on specific issues that he needs to face.

First off, because he is a politician and this is a political visit, I'd like to get a much better insight into how the Tribal Republic is working. He sees it rather as an oligarchy, with very limited accountability and thus, susceptible to the corruption we've all been told about from the Midular administration.

His visit is not at the top level - it's local/regional/state government level which interest him (though no doubt the national Tribal Council and Sanmatar have a powerful presence). He can see how accountability might function at the family/clan level, but what systems are in place/developing/aspired to on say a planetary or system scale? How do millions of people find their representatives? How are those representatives chosen - or replaced if found to be acting against the interests of their 'constituents'? Are any of these concepts even valid in a tribal society?

In a familial/tribal political structure, it seems that trust is paramount. How is trust measured and expected among the tribes? Does it differ widely in the 'grand tribe' milieu (for example, the Krusual are described as cunning and devious - how then could  individual, low power citizens trust those above them in the power chain? Is it through contract - i.e. oaths, blood pledges, religious bonds, collateral? How do the other grand tribes even begin to deal with an apparently untrustworthy co-ruler, let alone how does the Tribal Council view their ability to follow through on cluster level diplomacy and treaty?)

Is the view at the system/clan level that the Republic needs to develop towards a cohesive, centralised and federal model (as it once was under the influence of the Gallente) or a confederacy of loosely aligned interests of what would be, essentially, independent tribal states? Could the latter hope to stand against outside pressures without the powerful sense of grievance that the slavery issue provides?

Is the increasingly stated view of players that the Caldari State is an attractive option as both a model and future partner (as opposed to the Federation) something that is mirrored among many Minmatar? Is a tribal republic/confederacy seen as very similar in conception to the allied but independent mega-corporations of the State - but is the very much more individualistic, freedom-loving Matari character unsuited to such an arrangement?

I know, that's a lot of questions! Thank you for your thoughts.

[Samira Kernher]

People's representatives are their family/clan leaders. There is no desire to have a federal, democratic model, there is a large degree of distrust for that system and statistics so far show a greater degree of support for the new tribal government than there ever was for the Midular government. The tribes want to be independent-but-allied tribal states.

At planetary and system scale, you're dealing with tribal level politics. Major family/clan elders act as the governors, along with whatever administrative officials have been appointed by those groups.

As far as trust goes, consider the krusual rep to be its rep outside the tribe. Members of the Krusual Tribe probably have a much different view. Actually, based on the lore I've seen, the Krusual Tribe seems to be the most unified of the bunch. Their internal self-focused isolationism is what protected them during the original war with the Amarr; they were basically the only tribe that was never really conquered.

The tribal society is a very family-centric one. It means when you have issues you go to your immediate family, and if that doesn't work, then you go to your family's family, and so on and so forth.

[Elmund Egivand]

The reason why the current crop of Minmatar RPers see the Caldari model as attractive has alot to do with the Caldari State being decentralised and divided along Megacorp lines.

There are some similarities between the Megacorp system and the Tribal system, at least on the surface. Just swap out the CEO with a Tribal Chief/Elder, the divisions with the various clans with their specialised contributions to the Tribe economy, politics and culture, and each member of the Tribe with the Megacorp citizen-employees.

Of course, go deeper and you will start seeing differences. For example, being a very family-oriented system, you are bound to see nepotism practised. For example, a more qualified member of the workforce might be passed over in favour of another slightly less or markedly less qualified member due to blood ties. Not to mention, the Republic will often times staff their organizations based on bloodlines, so you have things like station administrators and ship engineers usually Sebiestor, quartermasters usually Vherokhior, security staffed by Brutor, etc.

Can you imagine a station where the administrators are Ishukone, security is provided by Kaalakiota, Lai Dai handles the commerce, etc?

[Lyn Farel]

Well, it's easy to find surface similarities between most things while omitting the 90% remaining differences. Like the caldari gritty meritocratic ideal versus the nepotistic and gerontocracy of the minmatar, which are fundamentally opposed. Or like the fact that most things in Minmatar society are a matter of emotions and raw feelings bound out of various rules of honour and pride and tribe, while in the Caldari society everything is cold, reserved, off standish, and calculated besides the similarities around respect for ancestors...

I mean, we can also draw parallels between the amarrian major Houses and the Tribes, and that would certainly not make them similar either.

The main thing that explains that weird caldari/minmatar willingness to get closer is mostly inherent to their non imperialistic, but nationalist mindset: the other one is the only one that doesn't really want to conquer them or change them, and both are underdogs compared to the two giants they fight against.

But other than that, nothing prevented the caldari to side with what was convenient for them (the Amarr) when it proved to be, and to ruthlessly exploit the plight of the Minmatar by buying juicy mining rights in the Ammatar border zone, directly fighting against minmatars there.

Most of the time, people forget that what the minmatar and the caldari take in isolationism and non imperialistic values, they also take it in a strong nationalist view that basically makes them care only for their well being, damned be all the others, which is something that cannot be said for the 2 imperialistic power houses.

[Mizhara]

People tend to forget something that both societies have in common. Neither try to bullshit the other. They know they're enemies, for practical and pragmatic reasons and respect that. They deal with each other honestly and respect that. Neither have a reason to compromise their integrity when dealing with each other and can respect that. When you deal with someone you know will do their best to profit the most out of any interaction, and they know it'll be reciprocated, you can finally have honest and straight dealings with each other. No pretense of charity or giving ground "for good will" or whatever else. The motivations are clear and in the open.

That I feel is the main reason you see a lot of Caldari/Minmatar RPers lament the practical reality of New Eden and seeking ways to bridge that, because while they're largely antagonistic towards each other, it's an honest antagonism that engenders respect and understanding. When they're the only two factions in  New Eden that actually doesn't have any reason to harm the other, unless it's in order to gain from it themselves, it becomes honest. Particularly when both are very much concerned with retaining their own culture and ways against both allies and enemies that try to undermine that.

No "Oh we're doing this because God. We're doing this because we're so nice. We're doing this to help. We're doing this because this and that." It's just "Yeah, not gonna lie, this is what's best for us. Want to see if we can work out a way that both benefit from it?".

[Elmund Egivand]

Right, the other reason was because of the Minmatar attitude. They are a no-nonsense race that believe in self-sufficiency and sticking with family and Tribe.

Hence why the respect the Caldari. The Caldari won't bullshit them.

I would point out that the Heir houses are less similar than the Megacorp system. For one, the Houses are less self-contained hierarchical societies with their own unique cultures and values, as compared to the Megacorps. Not to mention the Amarr Empire is considerably more centralised too (albeit with alot of internal politics, which is something that the Minmatar apparently loathed, if the description of the Republic in Source about how the Minmatar usually minimise bureaucracy whenever that's an option and how the Tribal Chiefs will directly appoint their executors for special purposes are accurate).   

[Lyn Farel]

I would actually argue that they are at least as diverse than the megas. They are said to be widely different in various matters, from economic, social, religious and political. Tash-Murkon, probably has few things in common with Ardishapur besides technology, and hierarchy to the throne.

As I said above, I could cite thousands of counter examples on why the tribes are totally opposed to the megacorp system, the same way they are to the Amarr houses. I can also cite similarities between all of them.

Trying to put them on equal footing, or making one close to another, is really confusing to me. Respectfully, I think that's wishful thinking.

Edit: maybe that also stems from myself wishfully thinking that factions remain diverse and very distinct...

[Mizhara]

It's not that they are close to each other. It's that they can respect and understand each other's differences and potentially work -very- well together in spite of said differences exactly because they can understand and respect them. The honest approach over-all is remarkably powerful.

[Nissui]

This thread...

People's representatives are their family/clan leaders. There is no desire to have a federal, democratic model [...] The tribal society is a very family-centric one. It means when you have issues you go to your immediate family, and if that doesn't work, then you go to your family's family, and so on and so forth.

Please forgive my drunkenness. I would like to echo the above sentiment and agree with the general attitude of prior replies. For purposes of OP's visit, I would recommend Clan elders/chieftains or their seconds. This might be a good jumping-off point for establishing a relationship for cultivating trust for a Federation representative within Tribal society. There are myriad intra-tribal interactions that may be at play between clans, families, or individual rivals, which might factor into relationships with such a political figure.

[Calliste Dauvienne]

I think people in their haste to adopt apples and oranges thinking with the Caldari really do forget that the Caldari mindset really is along: "There exists no such thing as permanent allies, only permanent interests."

The Caldari will gladly throw their own under the bus if it is in their interests. My past Caldari character got directly sued by Intara Direct Action because she screwed over SuVee in addition to being an attempt to throw her under the bus due to her Provist involvement. The entire history of the State is the Megacorps either individually or in coalition trying to screw each other over in their own self-interests.

Trying to appeal to Caldari with some apples-to-oranges comparisons of similarities being parity is for the Caldari just PR spin to sell, not an appeal to self-interest. Just take Ishukone at Crielere, sure they were willing to perform the theatre of peace and normalizing relations with the Federation but in the end it was always about the technology being developed -- not the PR.

So that's the thing really. Caldari have and will do business with the Minmatar but it's always going to be on their terms, and what they get out of it. Sure, they might even play at some PR but if people think they're going to abandon their alliance with the Empire and the favourable deals they've managed to make in order to access the Imperial markets and economy in favour of the Republic just because, "Megacorps and Tribes are sort of similar," Then you have to be a bit naive or delusional.

The Caldari are willing to do business with anyone - and they do - but don't look at the Caldari with rose-tinted romanticism and believe they will do things because they, "Like you," Then don't forget Caldari honour means it's not dishonorable to screw over someone else in order to advantage your own group -- whether it's family, corporation, or State, because they always come first.

This reminds me of past RP with Minmatar as a Caldari and while they'd talk about how much they were similarly oppressed or how Megacorps and Tribes are supposed to be similar when the important question of, "Well what could you or the Tribes offer my organization, Kaalakiota, or the State," The best response was... Mikramurkan fish.

Okay fair enough, but I don't think lots of fish really cuts it for Caldari.

[Lyn Farel]

Also, if you don't know about it already, we often forget that while there is a lack of minmatar lore on some points, there is one absolutely fundamental lore tidbit that was added at some point about tribal clans (families, tribes, etc) versus tribal circles (working circles).

It defines pretty much everything of the tribal society at a fundamental level. Playing minmatar without having read that is almost like shooting oneself in the foot, I feel...

Because well, it redefines everything as we could imagine it in the everyday routines of the minmatar, how their jobs and lifes are regimented not only on the tribal level as we know it, but also in their careers and jobs. It redefines everything in the public institutions as well, like how circles play an important part in the Republic Fleet, etc, and introduces something not so dissimilar to a caste system related to their place in the society through the work they do and the circles they are part of (which is a huge mess nobody can understand except the minmatar themselves).

[Calliste Dauvienne]

Also, if you don't know about it already, we often forget that while there is a lack of minmatar lore on some points, there is one absolutely fundamental lore tidbit that was added at some point about tribal clans (families, tribes, etc) versus tribal circles (working circles).

It defines pretty much everything of the tribal society at a fundamental level. Playing minmatar without having read that is almost like shooting oneself in the foot, I feel...

Because well, it redefines everything as we could imagine it in the everyday routines of the minmatar, how their jobs and lifes are regimented not only on the tribal level as we know it, but also in their careers and jobs. It redefines everything in the public institutions as well, like how circles play an important part in the Republic Fleet, etc, and introduces something not so dissimilar to a caste system related to their place in the society through the work they do and the circles they are part of (which is a huge mess nobody can understand except the minmatar themselves).

That's actually one of the major reasons I've always seen with the Caldari and the Minmatar relationship. The State is driven by Megacorps, and if there's one thing that corporations want when doing business it's stability. The Republic might have laws, but in the end in order to get anything done you have to know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows a guy so to speak just because how intertwined and complex all the relationships between people are.

On the one hand it can probably make short term deals lucrative because you can exploit that structure with a bit of bribery and other inducements to get a deal/contract through. In the long term it looks like it can attract a lot of risk because in a society based strongly around informal customs and traditions that govern personal relationships, you never really know if interests will always remain the same.

[Elmund Egivand]

Also, if you don't know about it already, we often forget that while there is a lack of minmatar lore on some points, there is one absolutely fundamental lore tidbit that was added at some point about tribal clans (families, tribes, etc) versus tribal circles (working circles).

It defines pretty much everything of the tribal society at a fundamental level. Playing minmatar without having read that is almost like shooting oneself in the foot, I feel...

Because well, it redefines everything as we could imagine it in the everyday routines of the minmatar, how their jobs and lifes are regimented not only on the tribal level as we know it, but also in their careers and jobs. It redefines everything in the public institutions as well, like how circles play an important part in the Republic Fleet, etc, and introduces something not so dissimilar to a caste system related to their place in the society through the work they do and the circles they are part of (which is a huge mess nobody can understand except the minmatar themselves).

Right, the Circle. This one is unique to the Republic and the Minmatar as a whole, where different members of the Tribe can join together for a common goal and form a Circle. One example is the Circle mentioned in the Chronicle 'Yetamo', which is focused entirely on nanotechnology. Elmund considers corporations to be a form of Circle, which is why he won't join a corporation if he isn't sure if he can contribute anything meaningfully.

[Lyn Farel]

The unique thing with circles is that they seem to be rather organic, chaotic moving entities, unlike rigid corps.