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[Morwen Lagann]

So in the aftermath of the second weekend of the Succession Trials, I was having a chat with a couple people on the Sarum team, and some interest was expressed in having more tournaments in a similar vein - 4v4, single-race-only (in terms of ships) with predetermined constraints on the structure of team composition. I'm a fan of the Worlds Collide setup used by EVE_NT but would rather something different so as to not step on toes and to try and see if we can fill a different niche.

The thought was to try using an internal PIE tournament that had been planned prior to the announcement of the Succession Trials (but not followed through with) as a test for the format and streaming setup and the like, and then depending on how it was received, to continue by rotating through the other races of ships - that is, with subsequent tournaments only allowing Caldari ships, or only Minmatar ships, etc. - to allow for other groups - with a particular leaning toward roleplayers (hence posting here first) being able to participate.

Some thoughts had on particulars:
- Matches themselves would use the same general ruleset as other tournaments being run. T1 drones only, except for rep bots, no scripted offensive ewar, t1 rigs, etc...
- Individual tournaments would restrict valid ship hulls to one specific race at a time; whether the style of further ship restructions in matches used in the first weekend of the Trials would be used (match-specific rulesets that change), or the style from the second weekend (one template for all matches, plus bans) would be, is up in the air.
- Matches would take place on Singularity to limit third-party interference and bullshit. However, in order to retain the "real assets on the line" nature of tournaments held on TQ, teams would determine their fits ahead of time, build the ships on TQ, and transfer them to organizers there. Ships would be rebuilt on Singularity and handed to teams prior to matches. If a ship is lost during a match, its TQ version will be trashed from the assets of the tournament organizer in possession of it.
- Prizes seem easiest to sort out as ISK, but other options could be arranged.
- Format of individual tournaments would depend on the number of teams involved. Smaller numbers of teams would be best served by a round-robin format with a best-of-3 series at the end; larger (up to with single-elimination with another best-of-3 series. Could do double-elimination, or single with up to 16 teams, but that'd take a while - probably more than a single day.
- Pirate hulls were mentioned during discussion, but I'm not sure they'd really add to anything except as a "pirate hull only" tournament.

Anyway... thoughts? People who'd be interested if this became a thing?

[Alain Colcer]

I would love to see something like this, what if you use the NPC sovereign nations?

So you can have teams representing
Minmatar Republic
Gallente Federation
Syndicate
Caldari State
Amarr Empire
Ammatar mandate
Khanid Kingdom
SoCT
Mordu's Legion
Serpentis
Angels
Blood Raiders
Sansha
Guristas
ORE
CONCORD
Sisters of EVE

Restrictions would be to use ship hull specific to the NPC faction that applies...

[Mizhara]

Sounds like a great idea, but not on the test server. Our characters run the risk of third party interference every time we undock, no matter what we do, so this should not be any different. I'm also curious how this sort of thing would be streamed, because honestly even the AT is exceedingly low on the list of spectator friendly competitive games and they have helluvalot more tools at their disposal than we do.

[Morwen Lagann]

Existing player-run tournaments of this format already take place on Sisi. I see no reason to be different. And do let me know the next time I'm vulnerable to third-party interference during a tournament match on TQ. (I'll save you the trouble of trying your patience - the answer is I'm not, ever.)

Speaking from several years of personal experience, it's effectively impossible to set up an arena with all the warp-ins and such in an adequate fashion anywhere but Sisi. Not to mention the overhead of the individual matches. We don't have a way to have fleets duel, so instead people have to duel invite every person on the other team, and then aggress that person within 5 minutes of that invitation. Not a reliable thing to go on, given how tournament matches play out. So the solution is a random nullsec system on Sisi.


Bruno: We'd need ships from some of those (Syndicate and Mandate in particular) to exist in the first place in order to make that work, hence starting with the big four first, then possibly trying stuff with other factions.

[Alain Colcer]

arena-like mechanics is something i really miss in eve....so much potential...

[Mizhara]

So how does this get dealt with from an IC point of view then? I know my characters can't "transfer to a different server" IC, and the closest thing I've ever seen to dealing with Sisi in an IC way is treating it like simulation software. It's hardly difficult to arrange something in nullsec either. I'm sure there's null space you can make a deal for using for this purpose, with the local inhabitants.

I honestly don't see why running it on TQ is particularly difficult. All it really does is introduce actual IC problems to overcome or deal with.

[Utari Onzo]

Mizhara, why such a hang up over this? It's a tournament trying to be run using the same terms as the AT/Championship. I'm certain you can use the IC justification of an arbitrary "secure location which is exactly what CCP said on slack when we asked about the Championship being held in Jove space.

But seriously, it's a friggin' friendly tournament in a space ship game.

[Lyn Farel]

Running it on Sisi has at least the benefit to make you run it on a simulator, thus avoiding the "we bring our crews to die" issue pretty entirely. Not sure the reason behind the handling of the same ships on TQ to destroy them accordingly though. That feels just weird...

[Mizhara]

Mizhara, why such a hang up over this? It's a tournament trying to be run using the same terms as the AT/Championship. I'm certain you can use the IC justification of an arbitrary "secure location which is exactly what CCP said on slack when we asked about the Championship being held in Jove space.

But seriously, it's a friggin' friendly tournament in a space ship game.

Which has to be dealt with IC in some way. Is it simulated, or are we throwing crew to their deaths over bloodsport? Are we supposedly doing this in space, and if that's the case how the hell did we "secure" the space from third party intervention? I'm all for friendly tournaments, I'm just not for "cheating" to avoid what Eve is all about which is no safety, anywhere, while undocked.

I don't see a need to play an entirely different game just to have a tournament. On the contrary, it'll be a far richer, immersive and interesting thing to do if you take in all the challenges of it being an actual thing done in actual space with actual people and consequences. Or on the other hand, do it on sisi as a simulated test of skill instead of a bloodsport. If you want to risk something, have every contestant pitch in ISK in a pot divided proportionally to... let's say the top three.

Having it both on Sisi and saying it's an actual tournament in actual space is just weird.

[Utari Onzo]

Once again I bring up the point you can't interfere with the Championship matches, and thats all ic. Ccp has tools to make it secure game wise and lore wise and honestly its not a stretch to assume we can too.

Because we're not ccp we're not allowed to provide rhe same security, or does it grind your gears ccp does make at/championship secure?

As for wherhee its a sinulation/real, i get the feeling it is real if morwen is talking about people handing over ships.

[Mizhara]

There's a difference between what we as characters can do in New Eden and what the Big Boys of New Eden can do, yes. Especially since we're (supposedly) trying to act as characters in New Eden and CCP are catering to all the people who are just playing a game. If you can get CCP to run a tourny for us, I could get behind the idea of secure space but I know my characters certainly can't pull off that feat and no other characters among the roleplaying community that I know of can be reasonably said to be able to do such a thing.

Hell, now that I think about it, it is actually kind of possible if you get the right kind of people on board. Go talk to Arrendis or some other goons, or whoever else with the necessary clout to lock down a null system tight and arrange it that way. Or, take the risk and just enlist actual roleplaying entities, hire mercs or whatever to do the same somewhere else.

I can't speak for anyone else, but RP in Eve is to me something that takes the reality of New Eden into account. Part of that is that we don't have the power to just casually declare space x in system y to be safe or whatever. We have the power our characters have, which is limited to the firepower and fits on our ships and the skillpoints we use, and the ISK we fund it with.

I know a lot of people don't agree with limiting themselves in that regard, and prefer to be omnipotent or just completely ignore limitations when they become inconvenient, but that doesn't mean I have to do the same.

[Utari Onzo]

Well then you're free to participate with the tournament being held as is, or free to not participate. I think we're flogging a dead horse on the subject now.

Moving on, I'd be interested to see a format that isn't race locked, but I would love to see ship or atleast class locking much like the first week of the Amarr Championship.

[Morwen Lagann]

Running it on Sisi has at least the benefit to make you run it on a simulator, thus avoiding the "we bring our crews to die" issue pretty entirely. Not sure the reason behind the handling of the same ships on TQ to destroy them accordingly though. That feels just weird...

I don't have a problem with tournaments held in a simulator IC. That's how the SCL worked.

Some people like the idea of putting assets on the line for the tournament on top of a possible entry fee that goes back into prizes. The idea of passing over hulls on TQ and trashing them in the event of their loss during a match came from Laerise, and I thought it was a cool middle ground. It was floated as an idea because while people like using the arenas in PE1-R1 that we use in AT/NEO/etc., we don't actually have access to that system on TQ, which means we have to make our own arenas or have a dev spawn them for us - they certainly won't be doing the latter on TQ.

So either it's full simulation, or there's a handwave of a secure combat arena leased from the IGC for us to use outside of their normal scheduled events. If the former, no real need to mess with assets on TQ; if the latter, then it lets people have the sense that they put something on the line for the matches - if they lose the ship in a match they're not getting it back on TQ, and neither is anyone else.

If these go forward and are successful it's possible we'd be able to get actual CCP support for it beyond possibly bugging Logibro or Fozzie to spawn an arena for us.

[Nissui]

I'll watch it! 

[Mizhara]

Well, as for stakes I already mentioned ISK pools. Buy-in based on the worth of the ship or more, which also adds a prize pool to the tournament. It does sound like the best option, really. Using Sisi as a simulator for the tournament, which'd open this up for those who'd avoid bloodsport due to moral compunctions while letting people have the safe space if they so desire it.

And besides, it'd be PvPers that'd be interested, and they tend to be able to pay for their ships so throwing isk into a pool shouldn't prove problematic anyway.

All in all, using sisi as a simulator would make it a test of capsuleer skill with no crewloss, make IC sense, open it up to more people etc. It also lets you bypass the kind of weird trading ships thing and instead just let you use the isk value and make it more attractive for winners by creating the isk pool.

Edit: Also talk to Niraia and others running betting sites, and you could probably get the tourney some publicity and perhaps even sponsorship, with some betting taking place.