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[Gwen Ikiryo]

In my opinion, fictional worlds are by their nature unsustainable as they age, as they are not regulated by logic and cause-and-effect, but author temperament (or in some cases, memory) and outside-context needs. This is only exacerbated in cases where they are part of a shared universe or tied to a commercial product. It's easy for a simple world to be "believable", because it not only has purity of focus, but also has plenty of acceptable low detail gaps where things can be fudged over as needed. But more complex ones?

I've seen Eves really old lore material, and to be honest, I don't think it's much more internally consistent or even well written then the stuff that we have today. The only difference is there was less prexisting stuff to manage by it's makers - Less writers who have injected their own interpretations into the setting that have to be reconciled, less sheer bulk of information that has to be checked and considered. Less baggage. In those days, the creators could probably write something cool happening and rather then hitting a bunch of you-can't-do-this walls, where this group can't do such and such because of this group or this plot element.

In fact, it could even be an opportunity to enhance the fiction, by creating detail to support it. For example, if this were happening in Eve Year One and I were working as a writer, and the higher ups said to me, "Hey, make King Khanid part of this tournament thing! He's a cool character!" (and this sort of thing happens as a lot for game writers, as I understand it) and the exact mechanisms of the Empires political structure hadn't been fully defined, I could invent an old law or technicality he could use to get in, or a new character who could support him - Both of which could add to the world. But because all those elements are already laid out now and none of them have a means I could use, the choice is between Deus Ex Machina or bust.

Another way to think of the problem would be as a sort of uncanny valley of written universes. Draw a simple picture of a person, and it can be pleasant to look at even if it's not really perfect. But as you make a more and more advanced depictions, elements that are missing or "off" become more and more apparent and off-putting.

There's a reason reboots happen so often. Maybe it's time for a Crisis On Infinite New Edens?

No, but seriously, I dunno what one can really do about this.

[Silas Vitalia]

Great points.

Eve has the unfortunate status of having (i think?) a much smaller fiction team than they did at their peak, there's a very big IP for a smaller number of fiction people to wrangle. 

I've got no issues with the writers but I suspect these are just low priority things for CCP corporate. Not that they used to care but they had x extra writers working on things to fill in plot for the nerds.  Compare the big PR and chronicles and live event simulcast Caldari Prime stuff to this plot.   

Anyway let's see how it goes perhaps all will be illuminated!! Or they make Khanid suicide off-character and I'll be sadface.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Can't say I disagree Gwen. Rather I'd agree with Silas, you make great points.

Still, I think the fiction at the start of eve was less inconsistent: For the reason alone that there wasn't as much pre-existing fiction it could be in conflict with. As a fictional world ages, it becomes harder and harder to not get into conflict with preexisting stories/world facts. one could say, even, that sucha fictional world is born, at the start it has many developmental opportunities, but as those are realized they narrow down. The world develops character in return, you come to 'know' the world. It matures. Then, at some point, it can easily become so constrained that it might be rather restrictive, mayhaps to the point of being strangling any creativity.

All that is nothing new, though. It's well known amongst fiction writers and in the academic study of such. If you start out writing the fiction for a world, you can either take your time and some precautions that will allow you to minimize future problems. You can do so at any step along the way, too. Of course if some 'higher up' people push you to do stuff that hardly, if at all works by the intrinsic logic of the world you're kind'a fucked up.

But I think CCP's writers were rarely, if ever, good at seeing the big picture and to plan ahead. And those that did were apparently oftentimes replaced or had to go without replacement. All this shows in how many gaps there are in the fiction nowadays, how many contradictions there are within it and how new fiction is added without regard for prior fiction: Maybe even without checking the unorganized body of existing lore beforehand.

So, I'm basically saying nothing more than Silas does in much less words when pointing out: "I suspect these are just low priority things for CCP corporate." They probably are and it shows. They could've done much better, if they really wanted to, nonewithstanding the fact that writing a continuing, coherent story gets harder the more you have already written. The EVE fictional world aged quite fast to the point where it was riddled with gaps and holes in the fabric of lore. I personally think they did a particularly bad job there - at least I know a couple of examples where it worked out much better, because people put more work into maintaining their fictional world.

[Lyn Farel]

Out of curiosity, which examples are you thinking about?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The first and best example that comes to my mind is that of 'Dere' ('Ethra' in english), especially with the continent of 'Aventurien' ('Aventuria') - A fictional world created for the german Pen&Paper RPG 'Das Schwarze Auge' (DSA; The Dark Eye). It's been born with the first edition of the game in 1984 and has continuously been alive and developed through adventures, novels, letter- and forum-play of seated nobility and patricians, news-articles in a magazine that is largely an in-game newsletter. The way the world developed was largely shaped by the authors of the game but heavily influenced by players - especially those that participate(d) in the letter- and forum-play: This went as far as some of these players getting hired to write sourcebooks on the regions they were playing in.

Of course, Aventurien isn't without contradictions either. But the general guidelines have always been clear, the general societal rules established, the way they changed were understandable. Or, like this TED-Ed lesson says: "Just like real-life, fictional world operate consistently within a spectrum of physical and societal rules. That's what makes these intricate worlds believable, comprehensible and worth exploring." And in general, that rule holds for Aventurien: The conflicts and adventures, it's historical dynamics (which spans at leas 45 years within the fictional world) arise mostly from within the world's own logic, rather than the world and it's physical as well as societal rules being re-shaped and molded to fit conflicts and plots that are desired by someone who comissioned the fictional world as 'fluff'.

Of course, the main selling point of DSA is the world which is so detail rich yet internally to quite a large degree consistent and coherent. It's made for roleplayers who enjoy such a world. EVE is not.

I can come up with other examples, but I think this is one of the best for a good fictional world having been built and changing in a player-author interaction. There are not that clear examples when it comes to PC-games, but I think it's entirely possible to realize such in silico, rather then in print. I guess though that the expected demand doesn't cover the development costs.

[Lyn Farel]

Yeah I guess I can come with a lot of good example of tabletop lorebooks and expansions... I am not sure either for PC games, though i'm sure we could probably find here as well...

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Elder scrolls is a pretty well put together PC game universe, if a bit dry at times. I've heard people sing the praises of Everquests lore, as well, though I couldn't speak to that.

[Lyn Farel]

To their defense though I guess that New Eden isn't exactly the easiest setting as well.

[Silas Vitalia]

The setting is background, its what they/we make of it. 

Just like you can have amazing stories come out of a mediocre IP, you can have terrible stories out of a great IP.

Eve has had both in great measure. 

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Still, making good stories out of mediocre/bad IP doesn't make the IP any better. And there are people who enjoy good IP.

Also, in general, it is easier to have amazing stories procured from good IP, rather than from bad IP.

Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.

[kalaratiri]

Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.

So why bother?

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.

So why bother?

Probably because Eve is a crap game if you can't find some meta way to get into it.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.

So why bother?

Do I really need to explain? Emotional attachment. In general, humans don't like it if they have to give up on something they grew to be used to. Usually, it doesn't help if they have to give up on it gradually.

That's also true for me and EVE: I feel it's a loss that EVE's background fragments more and more into an inconsistent collection of fiction instead of remaining and developing as a coherent fictional world. I personally enjoyed playing EVE from a within the world RP perspective, to feel immersed in the world. You probably can call me an RP immersionist or and immersionist RPer. For me, to enjoy the kind of RP I'm doing, it's kind'a bad to not have a fictional world that has the physical and societal norms that make it "believable, comprehensible and worth exploring".

So, yes, I agree with what Gwen said: If you don't have a 'meta way to get into it', EVE is kind of a 'crap game'. Not saying EVE is a crap game in general, but while at some time it seemed worthwhile to play EVE for the sake of exploring the fictional world it's set in, that motivation is hard to maintain with the fracturing of PF into more and more independent and mutually inconsistent pieces.

Also, I bother because as a human I am kind'a attached emotionally to the EVE community - or rather the people I had much contact with over the years. It's saddens me that EVE as a game is not catching my interest anymore, because I don't really want to maintain it as an instant messenger - it's pretty expensive to do so.

And lastly, as a german I feel that one should either do something right or not do it at all. That includes building fictional worlds. ;P (This last point isn't to be taken serious, obviously.)

[Lyn Farel]

Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.

So why bother?

Probably because Eve is a crap game if you can't find some meta way to get into it.

I can't say I disagree on that part...

Oh well, granted, when I was still young and still easily swayed, having friends and progression to do in space at such an excruciatingly slow rate (over months/years), and a certain amount of different things to try (still with that excruciatingly slow progression to make it last even longer..), I guess I stayed hooked up for a certain time before having to resort mostly on meta ways to stay into it..

[Utari Onzo]

To sidetrack a little, I'd like to tackle the point on if Khanid became Emperor. Technically, no, the Kindgom doesn't have to suddenly become obsolete and I can demonstrate a great real world example.

Back in ye olden times of Britain, we had a sadly little remembered Queen of Great Britain called Anne. She precided over the Act of Union that combined Scotland and England as one effective Kingdom, as well as seperately wielding the Crown of Ireland. She was in charge of 2 kingdoms, and while effectively they were governed in her cabinet as almost one territory in terms of foreign affairs, domestically there were still many differences in rule. In Ireland, she was the Queen of Ireland first and foremost, then the Queen of Britain. Two Kingdoms, one ruler.

On to another great example, her successor George I. George I was German, specifically the Elector Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (Hanover). De Jure, he was subject to the Holy Roman Emperor, de facto he was practically running a country in its own right, as did most of the electors, aside from the occasional bowing and kissing of the ring to the Emperor and supplying the Emperor's armies. This was counternanced with the very awkward position of being a potential rival to his Emperor by also being King of the independant, sovereign Kingdom of Britain, and also having the crown to the Kingdom of Ireland. Convoluted rulership much?

In effect, Hanover was a territory of his by right, and for the most part was ruled almost seperately from the fledgling British Kingdom, this state of affairs infact continued right up until George III who became King in his own right of Hanover, quite the upgrade. The last effective ruler to the three Kingdoms was William the IV, effectively the last 'Georgian' period ruler and father of our glorious Queen Victoria.

And there you have it, ruler of a large proto-empire, effectively ruling all three Kingdoms independant and unified by person and foreign affairs, not necissarily by domestic. If Khanid becomes Emperor, there is absolutely nothing stopping him simply ruling as Emperor of Amarr and King in right of the Khanid Kingdom as two seperate Crowns unified by the Person, not by law.