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[Elmund Egivand]

I'm REALLY going to have to read something that suggests the Republic has a higher standard of living than the Empire and better infrastructure than the freaking Republic.

I'll grant you that the Republic isn't as fail as some people suggest but I think you just jumped the shark, Aya.

I agree strongly. The Republic is also most certainly not sporting a 'super libertarian society'.

The very fact that the Voluval will have a massive influence on how the Republic views you shows that it is far from libertarian.

I still believe that the Minmatar as a culture is okay, but the Minmatar REPUBLIC is not much to be proud of (except for that Elder Fleet giving Concord a black eye and proceed to evacuate entire tribes from Amarrian space in a single day before withdrawing because of a superweapon, but I argue that this had nothing to do with the Republic and everything to do with the Elders and the Thukkers and their masterful theft of Federation monies). I also find it refreshing that the Minmatar Republic is one of those places where a capsuleer or a DUSTer wouldn't be put on a pedestal and will be treated the same as everyone else as their age and their tattoos warrant it.

It is one of those places where I can roleplay having Elmund, space immortal, be treated as a wet-behind-the-ears whelp whenever he does go home. Far as his clan is concerned, he IS a wet-behind-the-ears whelp who needs to be knocked down a few pegs every so often.

[Lyn Farel]

I.. do not find the Republic particularly shitty like some like to describe it, yes. I just find that it lacks... qualities. It's a bit bland and apathetic. But that's also probably because we are still waiting on a lot of source material regarding it.

I also think now, having re read the thread, that the Minmatar have very present redeeming qualities, and unlike most people, I still think that Midular's Republic was maybe a bit meek on the intergalactic scene, but it was realistic and much more subtle. It was a progressive, fledging civilization that actually tried to fit in better with their pairs in New Eden.

I don't think the Republic is very libertarian, no. Maybe a bit more before Shakor since it was more based on the gallente model, but still... no. However, I think it is described as a place where open-mindedness, no-nonsense ideals regarding everything in life, is strong, and also in contrast with a lot of xenophobic and racial issues. What strikes me as another value is that it's probably the place where you will find the most equality overall, even with their very regimented social structure.

[Elmund Egivand]

I also like to note that the Minmatar tribe system shares some similarities with the caste system, though the castes seem to have equal standing in their society. It seems that here, one tribe specialises in one thing (Sebiestor in R&D and Engineering, Brutor in military, Vherokhior in trade and scholar professions). I imagine that one's tribe is going to end up influencing his future and his career path in the Republic. Think about it. If a Sebiestor doesn't want to be an engineer or a scientist, doesn't want to study Mathematics, and wants to go out into the woods and be a lumberjack, how will he be treated? Probably like a pariah, I would imagine. Not exactly the response of a Libertarian society.

[Lyn Farel]

Are you sure that it goes that far ? I mean, that most Sebiestors are engineers, etc? I would expect them to have a leaning on that, with many famous individuals, but most of them... ? It doesn't sound like a self sustaining system if everyone is a scientist...

[Elmund Egivand]

Are you sure that it goes that far ? I mean, that most Sebiestors are engineers, etc? I would expect them to have a leaning on that, with many famous individuals, but most of them... ? It doesn't sound like a self sustaining system if everyone is a scientist...

It's basically why almost all Republic projects are collaborative efforts. To govern one world, Sebiestor takes care of the administration and the civil engineering, Brutor deals with defense, Vherokhior deals with the funding and trade agreements, etc etc etc. One tribe simply isn't going to do it all, if they do it conventionally at any rate.

Perhaps it wasn't always this way, especially before the Day of Darkness where tribal identities are intact. Perhaps they latched onto these tribal professions as an attempt to find an identity.

[Nissui]

I'm with Lyn on this one. I believe the Tribes are fairly generalized, and while some have proven more capable than others in some respects, the differences probably arise more from societal pressures. As long as you are supporting your family, supporting your Tribe, I think you will be viewed in a marginally positive light. While a simple farmer may impact far fewer Matari than a warp-drive engineer, their function and contribution are recognized. However, this is not so much addressing political accomplishments.

Regarding the state of the Republic; given the situation the Matari faced in the wake of the Great Rebellion, reliance upon the Gallente in the formation of institutions that could answer the rapid expansion doesn't seem unreasonable. The friction that a lot of players see between the Tribal traditionalists and Republic loyalists seems to be a misattribution to me: many on the former side view the Republic as a foreign imposition, while some on the latter feel that the Tribals are defeatist or, in the worst case, 'race traitors'. My personal feeling is that the Republic was largely necessary to the survival of the Matari as a single body after the rebellion, but that it is a transitional form of governance which recent events indicate is on the wane. Some research into the recovery of failed states here on Earth supports the idea that, among the many factors contributing to rapid and successful recovery, were leaders who embody ethnic representation and identity as well as display traditionalism and rationality. In the Republic, they have re-institutionalized the title of Sanmatar, reconstituted the Parliament along Tribal lines, and elevated the Tribal Council above it in all non-trivial matters. The Tribal chiefs, along with Shakor, seem to be exemplifying the qualities cited, and one might look at statistics like the precipitous drop in crime as indicative of strengthening statehood.

This does not address the cultural cooling off that inspires many ethnic Minmatar to remain in the Federation, but I don't think those Matari are making a political choice.

[Lyn Farel]

Are you sure that it goes that far ? I mean, that most Sebiestors are engineers, etc? I would expect them to have a leaning on that, with many famous individuals, but most of them... ? It doesn't sound like a self sustaining system if everyone is a scientist...

It's basically why almost all Republic projects are collaborative efforts. To govern one world, Sebiestor takes care of the administration and the civil engineering, Brutor deals with defense, Vherokhior deals with the funding and trade agreements, etc etc etc. One tribe simply isn't going to do it all, if they do it conventionally at any rate.

Perhaps it wasn't always this way, especially before the Day of Darkness where tribal identities are intact. Perhaps they latched onto these tribal professions as an attempt to find an identity.

So, basically, they would do it totally differently than when they started off as isolated tribes in the planet in the past ? Mind me, it's just a honest question I think is worthy to ask no ?

[ValentinaDLM]

I wouldn't take the tribal stereotypes that seriously, after all, not all the security agents are Brutor. I think it is more, there is a cultural predisposition towards something, like if you were a Sebbie who just wanted to be a strong a warrior, that might not be in line with expectations perhaps, but I think it would be socially acceptable. It seems to me that the tribes are much looser in this aspect than a caste system.

[Saede Riordan]

Yeah, I'm with Valentina and Lyn, I don't think the tribes are anywhere near that structured from my experience. An individual clan might have a lot of specialists in one area, but I think that would more likely be a result of where they are then who they are. A clan on a mining asteroid is going to have a lot of miners and engineers, a clan on a farming world is going to have a lot of farmers, etc.

The tribal stereotypes seem like just that to me, stereotypes.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

My opinion is that clans will specialise, and encourage members to work in related fields. But tribes will cover a broad range of occupations, perhaps with trends to favour certain areas.

Ideally tribal leaders at all levels would expect their word to be final. However ideally they wouldn't stay leaders for long if they make a lot of bad decisions.

[Samira Kernher]

Tribes and Clans
To the Minmatar mindset, the most important thing in life is to be able to take care of one's self, and although kin and family are important, most Minmatar prefer to identify themselves in terms of clan or tribe rather than along family lines. The Vherokior are a notable exception to this, having considerable identification with the family, while the Thukker are more oriented around their caravans. While the seven great tribes and their different ways are the clearest indication of the unique culture of the Minmatar, the fine grain of their heritage is given its texture by the clans.

A clan can have any number of families of a given tribe in it, and its size is dictated largely by the traditional activities of its member families. Most clans have a tendency to concentrate on a particular area of industry or related professions. Minmatar clans that live mainly on planets might focus on agricultural or heavy industrial activities; others who travel around New Eden may concentrate on mercantilism or the like--or perhaps pirating. Clans also maintain their special identities through artistic and literary pursuits and styles unique to them.

In the distant past, the clans constantly warred against each other. In the larger scheme of things, however, the Matari have learned that cooperation is important, and although the clans still try to maintain their regional and ideological identities, they usually put themselves forward as a unified whole when dealing with other races. Clans are distinct from circles in having a much more general social and political function, together with having a particular approach to several areas of life, such as work, art, and sport. For example, a circle that specializes in electronic engineering would not at the same time formally specialize in rhetorical poetry. Traditional clans, which most nonrenegade clans are, do not admit members from other tribes and usually limit themselves to certain families of the tribe.

Circles
A circle can crudely be thought of as a hybrid of an adoptive clan and a workers' guild. It is important to note that a member of a circle still remains a member of her familial clan but will usually join a circle to engage in a particular line of work or carry out some specific project. Each circle is a form of tribal syndicate brought together for various specific purposes. Some circle have a long-term, permanent existence; others are more temporary and operate in the short or medium term. In the Thukker tribe, the Great Caravans are, broadly speaking, equivalent to the familiar clans of the Minmatar tribes, while the smaller, usually specialized caravans and subcaravans are analogous to the circles.

The relationships between familial clans and circles are a tremendously complex social area. Practices different from circle to circle, but when an individual joins a circle, there usually some kind of buy-in--a common analogy is to a wedding dowry--whereby the new member brings a certain amount of resources to the circle's common treasury. This can affect the complex area of reputation, both the individual's and their familial clan's, with regard to the circle. Many circles are quite naturally internal to a given tribe, but inevitably--particularly during the Amarr occupation and later in the republic period--some cross-tribe circles came into being. Almost all circles cross family and clan lines, on the other hand, one of the original purposes of circles being to share knowledge within the tribe.

Circles were occasionally a source of controversy in the early Minmatar Republic, with accusations that some circles were secret societies wielding enormous power or, perhaps more likely, little more than organized crime groups. The Minmatar military, while formally organized in a typical military hierarchy, is also known to be crisscrossed by various circles, only adding to the complexities of running armed forces where clan and tribal ties play a significant role. Additionally, numerous Minmatar corporations were founded and continue to be run by the largest circles. The web of reletionships and reputation surrounding these often quite powerful groupings is simply beyond the understanding of any outsider, given how much of is informal and mediated by convention.

Growing Up Minmatar
...

Even in the case of birth in the Minmatar Republic or aboard the caravans of the Thukker tribe, discovering one's place among the Minmatar is a path and not a destination. The son of a clan chief may have certain advantages over other children, but only for so long as he can justify and earn them. Rites of passage, contests, and other traditional rituals help young Minmatar discover what is best for them and their people. Failing or succeeding in these tests determines a Minmatar's initial place in the community. These challenges are not only physical, but mental and social. As the Minmatar grow and develop, they continue to devise tests for themselves. Many young Minmatar join a circle, a group of like-minded Minmatar that have joined together in pursuit of a specific goal or to work on a given project. Membership in a circle is not necessarily for life--or determined by ties of family, clan, and tribe--and it is usual for young Minmatar to leave their first circle and go on to other things. Progression, advancement, and self-reliance are key concepts in the Minmatar mindset.

By the time a Minmatar reaches adolescence, she will have a good idea of where her natural talents lie, and so will her family, clan, and tribe at large. At adolescence, Minmatar undergo the Voluval, a coming-of-age ceremony common across all clans and tribes. The Voluval ends with the youth receiving a special form of tattoo marking her emergence into adulthood, along with all her responsibility toward family, clan, and tribe. Afterward, the newly recognized adult usually begins serious study and practice in those areas where she shows promise. The exact form of this study varies greatly. Some Minmatar are apprenticed to a lone tradesman, while others join circles dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. Many simply enroll in academies with thousands of similarly talented youths. Upon completing her education, a Minmatar enters society fully, with all the choices and responsibilities that entails.

[Elmund Egivand]

Are you sure that it goes that far ? I mean, that most Sebiestors are engineers, etc? I would expect them to have a leaning on that, with many famous individuals, but most of them... ? It doesn't sound like a self sustaining system if everyone is a scientist...

It's basically why almost all Republic projects are collaborative efforts. To govern one world, Sebiestor takes care of the administration and the civil engineering, Brutor deals with defense, Vherokhior deals with the funding and trade agreements, etc etc etc. One tribe simply isn't going to do it all, if they do it conventionally at any rate.

Perhaps it wasn't always this way, especially before the Day of Darkness where tribal identities are intact. Perhaps they latched onto these tribal professions as an attempt to find an identity.

So, basically, they would do it totally differently than when they started off as isolated tribes in the planet in the past ? Mind me, it's just a honest question I think is worthy to ask no ?

That is what I was thinking. I recall reading in Source (which I can't access at this time. Will verify when able) that typically, when the Republic plans to colonise a world, they will divvy up the tasks and responsibilities to the tribes as according to the stereotypes (as Saede puts it): Administration to Sebiestors, trade to the Vherokhior, security to the Brutor, etc etc.

And considering that these specialisations are very much a tribal identity, far as I can see it, two scenarios come to mind.

Supposed that there are two equally qualified engineers, one Brutor and one Sebiestor, both graduating from the Republic University with honours, and both are applying for a position in Boundless Creation. Which of these two are more likely to actually get the position, and why?

Inversely, what about military? Suppose that is this highly distinguished unit, half of its members being Sebiestor and the other half being Brutor. The captain of this unit is KIA and had to be replaced. Two candidates were brought forth, one Sebiestor and one Brutor. Both the Sebiestor and the Brutor had shown exemplary leadership qualities. Which of them is more likely to be promoted into captaincy, and why?

[Saede Riordan]

Well Boundless Creation is a Brutor company, so I'd assume the Brutor graduate would have a better chance, but I kind of see the point you're making? I think it shouldn't be too heavily overemphasized though. I figure there's plenty of clans that still mostly just do their own thing.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

As I understood him, his main point was that tribal identities and thus expectancies to tribe members are in conflict with libertarianism:

(...) I imagine that one's tribe is going to end up influencing his future and his career path in the Republic. Think about it. If a Sebiestor doesn't want to be an engineer or a scientist, doesn't want to study Mathematics, and wants to go out into the woods and be a lumberjack, how will he be treated? Probably like a pariah, I would imagine. Not exactly the response of a Libertarian society.

Does ones tribe influence which profession one will be more likely to take up? Quite probably, I'd say. Would a Sebiestor lumberjack be treated as a pariah? Maybe not exactly, but I imagine that he sure would have to live with being rediculed to some extent.

[Elmund Egivand]

As I understood him, his main point was that tribal identities and thus expectancies to tribe members are in conflict with libertarianism:

(...) I imagine that one's tribe is going to end up influencing his future and his career path in the Republic. Think about it. If a Sebiestor doesn't want to be an engineer or a scientist, doesn't want to study Mathematics, and wants to go out into the woods and be a lumberjack, how will he be treated? Probably like a pariah, I would imagine. Not exactly the response of a Libertarian society.

Does ones tribe influence which profession one will be more likely to take up? Quite probably, I'd say. Would a Sebiestor lumberjack be treated as a pariah? Maybe not exactly, but I imagine that he sure would have to live with being rediculed to some extent.

That is the point I was trying to make. Thanks.