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[Lyn Farel]

Well the thread is more about the good sides of the Republic... I don't think the Minmatar as a whole are hopeless. The Republic however... Between Skymother, Elders, corruption, Midular failure, Shakor blandness...

We really lack that demographics article. The Republic is hard to define actually, we don't have much.

[Valadeus]

I think that's honestly kind of the point (far be it from me to defend CCP's bad writing).

The Minmatar were a vibrant culture that achieved true peace and harmony when no one else had, prior to the arrival of the Amarr. Now, centuries later, they've won their freedom (mostly) but the climate of the cluster is very different now than it was before.

They've been denied the chance to gradually grow and adapt to the changing of the cluster and are instead finding themselves in an extremely different cluster (politically, scientifically, etc) than the one they knew before. They've also had the Republic kind of thrust onto them as a way of trying to "modernize" their leadership (you can blame the Gallente for this).

The Republic doesn't work because the Minmatar, as a people, aren't really looking for it to work. They're still identifying as tribes and clans. They're a scattered and disharmonized people that are trying to find themselves, first and foremost.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The Minmatar were a vibrant culture that achieved true peace and harmony when no one else had, ...

Uh, I'm not quite so sure about that 'peace and harmony' thing. As far as I remember after a time of outright war between the clans they achieved a state of relative peace and cooperation: But that might very well still be far from 'achieving true peace and harmony'.

It's not that the clannish, tribal nature was forced on them by the Amarr: Those divisions surely were very well alive in that time of supposed 'true peace and harmony'. To imagine that the ancient tensions between the tribes, which we see alive and well nowadays, fell entirely silent for any serious amount of time before the Amarr invaded, just to arise fresh and vital after the Rebellion, is kind of a weird picture.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

The Minmatar were a vibrant culture that achieved true peace and harmony when no one else had, ...

Uh, I'm not quite so sure about that 'peace and harmony' thing. As far as I remember after a time of outright war between the clans they achieved a state of relative peace and cooperation: But that might very well still be far from 'achieving true peace and harmony'.

It's not that the clannish, tribal nature was forced on them by the Amarr: Those divisions surely were very well alive in that time of supposed 'true peace and harmony'. To imagine that the ancient tensions between the tribes, which we see alive and well nowadays, fell entirely silent for any serious amount of time before the Amarr invaded, just to arise fresh and vital after the Rebellion, is kind of a weird picture.

It is possible to have tension between factions without outright bloodshed or utter deadlock. In some ways tension is useful as a driver of social change & growth. Certainly before the invasion it seems the Minmatar had a functioning global government, capable of driving their expansion into space & colonisation of other planets.

It is difficult to be certain, but I get the impression that Matari society functions by accepting that each clan has it's purpose & place. To take up a given role in society you need to be a member of, or marry into, or be adopted by, one of the clans that fill it. Not a very democratic way of doing things. But one that might work given the consent of the populace.

As for the core governments doing dumb things. Falcon made a comment to the effect that they are all very arrogant and not inclined to listen to capsuleer groups. However rich, powerful or loyal they might be. We are useful but dangerous tools to them. Nothing more.

[Valadeus]

The Minmatar were a vibrant culture that achieved true peace and harmony when no one else had, ...

Uh, I'm not quite so sure about that 'peace and harmony' thing. As far as I remember after a time of outright war between the clans they achieved a state of relative peace and cooperation: But that might very well still be far from 'achieving true peace and harmony'.

It's not that the clannish, tribal nature was forced on them by the Amarr: Those divisions surely were very well alive in that time of supposed 'true peace and harmony'. To imagine that the ancient tensions between the tribes, which we see alive and well nowadays, fell entirely silent for any serious amount of time before the Amarr invaded, just to arise fresh and vital after the Rebellion, is kind of a weird picture.

Perhaps "true peace and harmony" was too strong of a phrase.

However, the tribal nature of the Minmatar existed long before their contact with the Empire. I was simply referencing a line that I remember reading (forgive me for not being able to find it at this time) that at the height of their Empire, the Minmatar had put their past wars behind them and were largely a unified, harmonized race prior to the Day of Darkness.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Minmatar

[Esna Pitoojee]

This discrepancy is part of the retcons associated with Empyrean Age. Prior to that, there were still distinct inter-tribal tensions; although perhaps not on the level of open, widespread fighting the tribes still had distinct conflicts and there was definitely aggressive competition (and discrimination) on the tribal level.

Then that got written out in favor of the Minmatar Empire being as positive as possible to highlight how evil the Amarr are, a fact that benefited neither side.

Fortunately since then CCP took some minor steps to return to a more realistic, diverse view of the pre-contact Minmatar, but this has been stymied by the stagnation of lore in general.

[Valadeus]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification Esna.

[Lyn Farel]

All we know of the Minmatar prior to the Amarr arrival, was that they were bogged down into inter tribal conflicts and wars, until they started to overcome that and be considered as a "Minmatar Empire". It reminds me a bit of our RL history : wars between tribes and natives, wars between empires and kingdoms, wars between nations and coalitions, and eventually a world at "peace" while conflicts shifted to something else than conventional wars.

In any case, we know that the Brutor Tribe was an isolated tiny offshoot of the Starkmanir Tribe, the biggest of all tribes in terms of power and demographics, which was most of the time rather neutral and favored statu-quo. We also know that the Sebiestor was a small tribe living on the northern lands, not with a lot of contact with the other tribes. And that the Nefantar, second biggest tribe, was the most politically outspoken and acted like the lawful white knights, always at war with Krusual warlords. Not much info on the Thukker and Vherokior iirc. Probably a lot more diffuse and nomadic in nature ?

I have a hard time picturing those conflicts as suddenly disappearing, at best being contained in favour of their new space faring empire.

[Davlos]

All we know of the Minmatar prior to the Amarr arrival, was that they were bogged down into inter tribal conflicts and wars, until they started to overcome that and be considered as a "Minmatar Empire". It reminds me a bit of our RL history : wars between tribes and natives, wars between empires and kingdoms, wars between nations and coalitions, and eventually a world at "peace" while conflicts shifted to something else than conventional wars.

In any case, we know that the Brutor Tribe was an isolated tiny offshoot of the Starkmanir Tribe, the biggest of all tribes in terms of power and demographics, which was most of the time rather neutral and favored statu-quo. We also know that the Sebiestor was a small tribe living on the northern lands, not with a lot of contact with the other tribes. And that the Nefantar, second biggest tribe, was the most politically outspoken and acted like the lawful white knights, always at war with Krusual warlords. Not much info on the Thukker and Vherokior iirc. Probably a lot more diffuse and nomadic in nature ?

I have a hard time picturing those conflicts as suddenly disappearing, at best being contained in favour of their new space faring empire.

The fact that those very diverse tribes managed to come together as a body politic and form a state is an achievement in itself. I have kind of seen the Minmatar Republic as something of an equivalent of modern Iraq in its composition of varying demographics. It's mostly made up of Shia, Sunni and Kurds and they would typically be at each others' throats, but they're all Iraqis for better or worse.

[Jocca Quinn]

Skymother

Almost forgotten about that, was that a CCP Dropbear project?

[Lyn Farel]

I don't think ... ? Wasn't it already around TEA, the-guy-we-shall-not-say-the-name's stuff ?

[Esna Pitoojee]

First mention of 'Project Skymother' I can find is in the chronicle "Present Pieces" by CCP Morlock. Very little information is given about it there, aside from that it is a ship of presumably colossal proportions.

Not until Templar One did we get any hint of what it actually is.

[Ayallah]

Recently I've been pondering the Minmatar and for myself it seems that in regards to their portrayal in the lore and fiction the Republic and the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture. When I go through the lore of the Minmatar and the Republic:

- They were militarily defeated by the Amarr Empire and the majority became enslaved.
- They rebelled, but they only succeeded because they were assisted by the Federation and the Jove.
- The Minmatar create a Republic but it is depicted as so terrible due to internecine tribal factionalism, official corruption, and a failing economy a significant majority would rather live in the Federation or join a criminal cartel.
- To reinforce how terrible the Republic is, people feel becoming a criminal and all that entails is a better life than living there.
- Republic military successes are never actually a success:
 - The assault on CONCORD and the Empire results in the almost complete destruction of the Minmatar Fleets. Fleets that took decades to construct, and which were funded by economic development funds from the Federation. Essentially, the Republic embezzled all the money that could have been used to build up their economy and create jobs resulting in decades of poverty and unemployment only for their Grand Plan to be derped in a day.
- Republic leadership in government is typified by a complete lack of Statecraft, or foresight. Instead, they are portrayed as people who can never see beyond their nose and are easily angered into doing dumb things like Colelie.
- They come for their people, and only end up with a lot of people they cannot support economically. Welcome to the Republic, you are free from slavery, may you enjoy the liberties of unemployment.

I could go on, but it just seems like that in an attempt to make the Minmatar and the Republic as some kind of "underdogs" to root for CCP has just ended up giving them every single possible third world trope in their lore, fiction, style, and presentation that the society seems to end up being written at present as some kind of parody that can accomplish little on their own militarily, economically, or politically.

In comparison to the other major powers in Eve, I have to ask: Is the Republic actually good at anything?

-A civilization that had not know warfare in 1000 years was defeated by an empire many many times their size which already had VASTLY superior technology and military might.  Essentially they were bombard from orbit and had absolutely no chance at all.

-After roughly 700 years of slavery they still preserved enough of their culture and will to fight to rebel with no education or weapons against the same VASTLY superior force.

-The vast majority of the 'republic is terrible' actually comes from role-players over eventuating parts of the lore and treating descriptions of the first republic (which was purged in a very violent day as soon as they were able) and sarkon as if it is the way the entire republic is.  Essentially role-players have repeated 'republic is shit' so much trying to show how bad it is for them and QQ that the majority of the community actually believes it.  PF really has very little support for this at best.  Look at the facts: nation the size of the state put up in less than 150 years.  So no, the republic is not shit at building infrastructure, mary sue minmatar role-players are just shit at reading PF.

-see above

-the cost of a few dreads and some supers and a titan is so fucking tiny to the GDP of a big four faction except when it comes to people spewing nonsense about the minmatar republic.  1/3 of their fleet was destroyed in an ATTACK ON THE TWO MOST POWERFUL FORCES IN NEW EDEN in which they won every objective and got out with yea like 2/3's of their fleet.  It was a suicide mission at the absolute last second brought on by the empire's discovery of the surviving starkmanir and it is without a doubt one of the most brilliantly executed operations in new eden's history.  They went toe-to-toe with concord and the empire and hit them so hard and fast that both were reeling in shock unable to defend themselves.  literally took a impossible to predict terran super weapon and the return of the empress to keep them from a flawless victory.

-Republic leadership is a tribal society with different priorities than 'be diplomatic' and they have a very fucking good grasp of statecraft considering they have attacked concord, the empire, and the federation and kept going on even keel with all the above.

-the population of enslaved matari is like, 10+ trillion and none of the big 4 EVEN THE EMPIRE is capable of taking on +10 trillion people.  Could the caldari state double its population? The empire sure as hell can't afford to lose them the economy would collapse overnight.  And there are a number of news articles detailing how every single returned slave is given free medical care, education and supported by their tribes/clans etc

Lots of people read between the lines to get the minmatar is shit interpretation when empirically, it really fucking isn't or could not be given what it is and how young it is.  imo its the most OP of all the nations and is almost unbelievable in what they have accomplished.  community perception has changed to minmatar is shit before I started playing but it really doesn't have much at all to stand on in written lore.  I blame a lack of loyalists championing the cause for a long time and a lot of pirate types throwing all the mary sue shit backgrounds they can. Not to mention so many people have a hate boner for shakor that they will literally use descriptions of the first republic under karin to show why shaker is so evil and bad for the republic now.   Life in the republic is a higher standard of living than the empire on average  They have better infrastructure overall than the federation on average (mostly due to it being all new construction with new tech and no fault of the federation) and prior to the day of darkness were said to have the best engineering in new eden.

TL;DR yea, lots of stuff.  read some of the PF about it, its actually a pretty fucking badass super libertarian society. 

edit: sorry for the written tone, i haven't slept in 2 days so I got a little spergy. 

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I'm REALLY going to have to read something that suggests the Republic has a higher standard of living than the Empire and better infrastructure than the freaking Republic.

I'll grant you that the Republic isn't as fail as some people suggest but I think you just jumped the shark, Aya.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'm REALLY going to have to read something that suggests the Republic has a higher standard of living than the Empire and better infrastructure than the freaking Republic.

I'll grant you that the Republic isn't as fail as some people suggest but I think you just jumped the shark, Aya.

I agree strongly. The Republic is also most certainly not sporting a 'super libertarian society'.