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[Lyn Farel]

I'm still not convinced totally about that, unless we are starting to compare the Republic of Shakor to rogue states like North Korea, Daesh, or the likes... Well, it's true though that IRL it's done in a westernized context of international diplomacy, so I guess it stands more believable in New Eden...

[Aria Jenneth]

Hm.

Is the adage that "Gallente fight bravely and die horribly; Minmatar fight bravely and run away" still true?

If so, having the strongest hit and run raiders in the game is a pretty strong recommendation. I know you're looking for seriously admirable things about the Minmatar as a people, but their guiding combat protocol is brilliant for capsuleers.

All joking aside, I actually think the Minmatar (and the Republic) show really remarkable resilience. They've been through centuries of captivity in the hands of a ruthless and tremendously powerful culture actively attempting to annihilate their own ... and they came through it with a remarkably large percentage of their culture. What's more, under the harshest of circumstances (some of them self-inflicted, but still), they have entirely failed to collapse, and have missed thriving mostly by dint of having to share the cluster with the rest of us, including their only partially-defeated oppressors.

They escaped a THOUSAND YEARS of being an institutionalized underclass. Things will not be hunky-dory within a century or so of that. Underdogs they may be, but they're assuredly a power to be reckoned with, right or wrong, and that's a long way from being a bunch of newly-freed slaves.

[Veiki]

But yes it is definitely a case where the Republic looks a lot like Africa IRL to a point where it draws a lot of inspiration from there. Shitty economics, shitty social policies, corrupted to the bones, assisted by Federation marshall plan but actually using the money for their own individual gains... Historically, like African countries, it's a young state compared to the others, and a state that got its independence from imperials after a rebellion (= RL decolonization, a bit more bloody) and still struggles to get back on its feet (cf Brian's Life "what good has the Romans brought us ?").

In a sense I think this for me is at the heart of the matter as regards the Minmatar Republic. At core of the major faction is a narrative generally written along the lines of a "larger" power in conflict with a "smaller" power: Gallente Federation vs. Caldari State; Amarr Empire vs. Minmatar Republic.

When comparing the two conflicting powers of the Gallente Federation and Caldari State they are presented as regards their current background fiction as existing on some basis of parity of threat to each other due to different reasons. The Gallente Federation being the larger power, but due to the nature of its democratic society is a sleeping giant. The Caldari State is the smaller power but also far more militarized as regards their own society.

The conflict narrative between Federation and State has been written in such a way that one is not consistently portrayed as fundamentally "weaker" than the other. They each have their own particular strengths in comparison to each other, at least in the realm of perception and portrayal.

The conflict narrative between the Amarr Empire and the Minmatar Republic however is not one of parity of strength but rather an absence of it. Because the conflict is framed in terms of slavery, it strongly implies a disparity of strength between the participants in the arena of perception about them. In order to enslave another society, one needs the strength to subjugate them. Under such a narrative the ones that subjugate (Amarr) will likely be seen or portrayed as stronger than the ones they have subjugated (Minmatar).

Now, people being people they're likely going to consciously or unconsciously draw Real World parallels and tropes in the formation of their own perspectives of the factions involved. Due to the nature of the whole slavery conflict narrative, then the Amarr will probably be assigned tropes and historical parallels about military conquest or whatever (otherwise how could they have subjugated the Minmatar) and the Minmatar get assigned tropes and historical parallels where they're the victims of oppression, imperialism and colonialism by a foreign power (otherwise how could they have been subjugated by the Amarr).

My initial post was intended as the hypothetical thoughts of someone new to the game or new to the lore. The perceptions potentially formed of the Minmatar and Republic under a conflict narrative of slavery where they are the victims of it. Some might describe such thoughts as unfair, and yes, I think they are at least. I do not however, believe they are unlikely or unbelievable perceptions people might form.

The Minmatar do have a lot of interesting, positive, and engaging aspects to them. Unfortunately I think they will continue to be lost opportunities now that with CCP killing off Midular it really is just going to be about all about slavery with the Republic. Where failures become an exacerbation of the Minmatar portrayed as the weak victims of slavery throwing rocks impotently at Amarrian tanks.

[Aria Jenneth]

Where failures become an exacerbation of the Minmatar portrayed as the weak victims of slavery throwing rocks impotently at Amarrian tanks.

You may be overestimating the degree to which the Amarr have been getting portrayed as awesome. They've sort of been suffering their own fail parade.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I feel like the original lore made the Empire out to be more of a post-colonial declining power, with the Republic a increasingly rising one, but 10 years of complete stagnation have kind of ruined that narrative. Along with, yeah, the whole dynamic between the two becoming much more defined by the past then by the present.

[Silas Vitalia]

The Amarr / Minmatar relationship was initially setup as a knockoff of the Centauri / Narn relationship from Babylon 5, right down to the aging imperial power having to accept their formerly enslaved colony as a fledgling independent nation on the scene.  Some of the Babylon 5 galactic council arguments between them made their way pretty directly to Eve.

Now what Babylon 5 did, and CCP will never allow to happen, is that they let the aging imperial power reconquer their former slaves with the help of basically the jove, and it was tragic and horrible.  Babylon 5 was great in letting the bad people win sometimes, and made the prickly narn all the more noble in defeat, and eventually some revenge killing the emperor.

Much like I would love the other to assist jamyl and reclaim matar, only to eventually be burnt by a united front of the other factions and some amarr.  Shakor can even ram his ship into jamyls clone vat or something for added dramallama.   Long as jamyl dies im happy.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Where failures become an exacerbation of the Minmatar portrayed as the weak victims of slavery throwing rocks impotently at Amarrian tanks.

You may be overestimating the degree to which the Amarr have been getting portrayed as awesome. They've sort of been suffering their own fail parade.

I really agree there. Playing Amarr for quite some time I did facepalm a lot. The portrayal in recent PF sources didn't really change that: Rather the contrary is true.

I think the problem is not one particular to the Minmatar, but really simply one of bad overall narrative. I kind'a like the comparison to Babylon 5. Not because I think the Amarr should reconquer the Matari, though. If I want that story, I can re-watch B5. But one thing B5 did well was giving an overarching story which didn't get compromised for making a 'point' in single episodes. The 'metaplot' of EVE is basically non-existing, due to it getting compromised all the times, as writers of PF go on to ignore what already happened because they want to tell their story. All that, of course, gets combined with CCP wanting to keep the 'status quo' as outlined by previous posters.

In the end, that means that all factions end up being shat upon - maybe the Matari had some less fortunate times, recently, but there's no agenda on CCP's side to make them look bad.

[Lyn Farel]

The conflict narrative between the Amarr Empire and the Minmatar Republic however is not one of parity of strength but rather an absence of it. Because the conflict is framed in terms of slavery, it strongly implies a disparity of strength between the participants in the arena of perception about them. In order to enslave another society, one needs the strength to subjugate them. Under such a narrative the ones that subjugate (Amarr) will likely be seen or portrayed as stronger than the ones they have subjugated (Minmatar).

Yes, but History seems to hint to the fact that they tried to bite a lot bigger than they can chew. Considering the sheer size of the Minmatar Empire, albeit of course ridiculously under developed compared to the Amarr Empire of the time, was already big enough. We don't have real numbers and an overview of the size of each empire centuries ago when this happened, we only know that the Minmatar had colonized like 3 solar systems. Since the raids lasted centuries, the Minmatar continued to expand while being bleed slowly by the raiders. Lore seems to tell that every major tribe already controlled several solar systems when the major Reclaiming took place centuries after the beginning.

We also don't know at all the size of the Amarr themselves. Probably bigger of course, yes, but by how much ? They certainly didn't cover what they cover today, and a lot of their planets were probably still colonies and underdeveloped worlds. Were they even more numerous than the Matari ? We don't even know that for certain. All we know is that they were able to go their way because of a huge technological gap.

Considering that today, the Matari are the most numerous in the cluster by far tells something imo.

The Minmatar do have a lot of interesting, positive, and engaging aspects to them. Unfortunately I think they will continue to be lost opportunities now that with CCP killing off Midular it really is just going to be about all about slavery with the Republic. Where failures become an exacerbation of the Minmatar portrayed as the weak victims of slavery throwing rocks impotently at Amarrian tanks.

That's one of my main gripes with the killing of Midular (besides killing one of the few remaining good leader characters...). Unlike Shakor, Midular was presented almost like a Chosen One. The chronicles about her always hinted at great destiny and things, and even if reality doesn't of course follows prophecies and Voluvals (which is very ironic, and works), the only thing we now see of Midular is that she has been the leader of a government that most Matari started to look at in disbelief more and more, and that hints at a complete failure on her side. Even the negociations she did with the Ammatar never bear any fruit, and with Heideranµ/Doriam neither.

All in all I fail to see a single redeeming quality to what Midular did and accomplished, and what I see in return is someone with the most prestigious Voluval, destiny, and admiration, that completely failed to do anything worthy of note except leading her own Republic to the wall. And that, is the whole story of the Republic. I'm not even sure it's still a republic under Shakor reforms. vOv

So yes, the issue is that while the fact that Midular the chosen one failed at anything is grimdark and all and fits to the murphy-esque setting of Eve, it depicts the faction in a very negative way and story-wise, it makes a statement, and a very negative one.

[Mizhara]

I actually count that as quite a positive. The complete failure of Midular is a very welcome positive change, eloquently demonstrating that a position of weakness, compromise and kissing enemy arse is not a good way to go about things. It justifies further conflict, allowing for content creation that isn't based on insular "no no, we're just going to sit behind the borders doing nothing while -saying- we're like... building houses and shit.". Now there's room for all manner of Minmatar based RP, not just hippie drum circles.

Midular may very well have been the worst thing to have ever happened to the Minmatar.

[Lyn Farel]

That's not what I meant...

[Louella Dougans]

The lore, such that it is, states that the failures of Midular's government, were not failures of policy.

The problems with the Republic, according to the lore, were that 99.999% of the politicians and senior civil servants, in charge of implementing policies, were in fact Amarr spies, and deliberately screwed up all such things as economic development. Building shoddy refugee slums out of substandard materials and all that. (But where did all the money they were embezzling go? It sure didn't go anywhere in the Republic).

The Elders had unquestionable proof of all of this, and murdered all the politicians and civil servants, during the events of the Empyrean Age novel. Even Midular's bodyguards were all Amarr spies. Which is why she was raped by them. And then Shakor tells Midular a rape joke and says "Time for a new republic", and Midular says "I know my place now, as a woman".

Minmatar of Gor. 



Also, CCP chose to write out of history, many of the player events leading up to that time.

Ushra'Khan have Insorum ? - written out of history, the Republic has an unlimited source now, doesn't need U'K help.
Electus Matari building up the economy ? - All the economic development went into the pockets of Amarr spies. Also the Republic is irrelevant to the future of the Minmatar People, which will be decided, in secret, by the Elders, in the secret Elder secret sanctuaries, in a secret location somewhere near the Great Wildlands, in a secret system not accessible by stargates, to shield their secrecy from outsiders.

That sort of thing.

[Ashley]

The Elders had unquestionable proof of all of this, and murdered all the politicians and civil servants, during the events of the Empyrean Age novel. Even Midular's bodyguards were all Amarr spies. Which is why she was raped by them. And then Shakor tells Midular a rape joke and says "Time for a new republic", and Midular says "I know my place now, as a woman".

Whaaaaaaat ... o.O

[Louella Dougans]

Exactly.

[Nmaro Makari]

I don't have much to say but I will say that, understandably, this thread is glazed in westernized perceptions of "developing nations".

[Lyn Farel]

I am not really sure where stating that "developing nations", aka Africa for instance, being sometimes bankrupt states or corrupted officials, or at least with shitty economical and social development, considering all the even more fundamental problems they got (water, food, diseases, slaughters, civil war...), and their subsequent history post decolonization, and also how they are used and milked by the western world, is such a westernize perception, sadly... 

And then, comparing them to the inspiration behind the Minmatar Republic ?