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[Lyn Farel]

Recently I've been pondering the Minmatar and for myself it seems that in regards to their portrayal in the lore and fiction the Republic and the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture. When I go through the lore of the Minmatar and the Republic:

- They were militarily defeated by the Amarr Empire and the majority became enslaved.
- They rebelled, but they only succeeded because they were assisted by the Federation and the Jove.
- The Minmatar create a Republic but it is depicted as so terrible due to internecine tribal factionalism, official corruption, and a failing economy a significant majority would rather live in the Federation or join a criminal cartel.
- To reinforce how terrible the Republic is, people feel becoming a criminal and all that entails is a better life than living there.
- Republic military successes are never actually a success:
 - The assault on CONCORD and the Empire results in the almost complete destruction of the Minmatar Fleets. Fleets that took decades to construct, and which were funded by economic development funds from the Federation. Essentially, the Republic embezzled all the money that could have been used to build up their economy and create jobs resulting in decades of poverty and unemployment only for their Grand Plan to be derped in a day.
- Republic leadership in government is typified by a complete lack of Statecraft, or foresight. Instead, they are portrayed as people who can never see beyond their nose and are easily angered into doing dumb things like Colelie.
- They come for their people, and only end up with a lot of people they cannot support economically. Welcome to the Republic, you are free from slavery, may you enjoy the liberties of unemployment.

I could go on, but it just seems like that in an attempt to make the Minmatar and the Republic as some kind of "underdogs" to root for CCP has just ended up giving them every single possible third world trope in their lore, fiction, style, and presentation that the society seems to end up being written at present as some kind of parody that can accomplish little on their own militarily, economically, or politically.

In comparison to the other major powers in Eve, I have to ask: Is the Republic actually good at anything?

They were at least good at assaulting CONCORD HQ and the Empire before it took them zombieJamyl and her terran weapon to stop them (because the imperial navy is useless apparently too). But TonyG is hardly a good example for most factions, it makes them look all terrible, even the Fed.

But yes it is definitely a case where the Republic looks a lot like Africa IRL to a point where it draws a lot of inspiration from there. Shitty economics, shitty social policies, corrupted to the bones, assisted by Federation marshall plan but actually using the money for their own individual gains... Historically, like African countries, it's a young state compared to the others, and a state that got its independence from imperials after a rebellion (= RL decolonization, a bit more bloody) and still struggles to get back on its feet (cf Brian's Life "what good has the Romans brought us ?").

I'm volontarily darkening the depiction but I think that's directly explained and derived from where they took their inspiration, much like the Amarr Empire used to be depicted as utter bigoted morons back in the day (fortunately, it has stopped), the State = 3rd reich, etc etc. It is always easy to fall into certain tropes when drawing inspiration from RL things, and CCP is no exception to that.

Other than that, no, can't answer better than what has already been said i'm afraid...

[Silas Vitalia]

Ccp's reluctance for any serious change in the empires' status quo power dynamics means the initial relationships they set up at the outset will never change.  They rolled minmatar to be the lore underdogs with generous helpings of of PF derp and they will not likely change it. 

If its any consolation the actual game part of the game has for the most part kept winmatar ships at the top of the PvP spectrum for most of eve history, save the occasional nerf.   The other factions only occasionally had the FOTM ships, matari were always pretty consistently kicking ass with their ships. 

[Lyn Farel]

One could equally argue that the Empire is useless on the basis that it's lost every war/battle in modern times (500 years) depicted in the background, often against much smaller forces. Kingdom, Republic, Jove, Federation Kind Of... The only time it sort of won was due to space magic. It also has most of it's most sacred traditions portrayed as being stepped on repeatedly, the cloned empress thing being the least of it.

The whole south of the cluster seems to be basically defined by a sequence of deus ex machinas or influence from outside sources, rather than having any will of it's own. Even the Amarrian religion is implied to just be the product of the Jove/some other ancient civilization messing with them for some reason.

(What am I saying, the "whole south"? That's basically everything in this awful setting!)

Heh. This really wasn't intended as some kind of PF competition of who is the best and most powerful vis-a-vis all the rest. Rather, it's about how the portrayal of the Minmatar and the Republic seems to leave very little positive to build upon once you move beyond slavery related issues. The Amarr Empire for example has slavery related issues, but to take your example, even if it's never won a battle in the last few centuries it still remains portrayed as a strong military and economic power.

The issue for me though is if you're a new player and choose a Minmatar character, then you end up with a Republic that seems portrayed with little positive attributes attached to it beyond being the underdog - which seems a bit like a backhand compliment.

Then again maybe it's just a matter of personal perspective and given the PF provided, the Republic truly is presented as the military, economic, political, and cultural rivals of the other major factions and is able to project a sense of real power when compared to them?

I think what attracted most minmatar players has always been the atmosphere and the look of the faction itself, rather than the Republic. The Republic has never been really appealing, but I still think it was more appealing when leaded by Midular though. Which could explain the state of Minmatar RP now.

[Morwen Lagann]

I'd wager a guess that it was already on a decline before they gave Karin a forced trepanning, but I've never been part of the Minmatar RP community nor really wanted to, so I'm basing that on observations of people who I knew to be part of it at the time.

[Gaven Lok ri]

In many ways the Minmatar (and Ammatar) are the post-colonial disaster states of EVE. They have been basically screwed over by *everyone* at this point.

I do think there is a lot of neat material to be had in their underdog/totally screwed situation, though. It allows RP questions like "How does a society recreate a destroyed past culture for its modern purposes?" or "How does a totally outgunned state manage to maintain its feelings of pride and independence?" A lot of the best Matari RP has come out of the really horrid situation the republic is in.

One of the really tragic things that the whole Elder fleet concept stole from the Matari was the sense of "We are underdogs, but are still going to put up a fight." Getting a magic fleet from nowhere put the Matari on a militarily equal footing to Amarr (who then also got a magic super weapon :/) and this actively stole a lot of the luster from the narrative of prior arcs like the Defiants. I think it is notable that Matari RP was the largest RP group up to about 2010, so the question is what has changed since then to make RPing a matari loyalist less appealing.

[Esna Pitoojee]

It's also a lot more realistic than having the standard MMO factions-in-perfect-equilibrium business.

Actually, I think a lot of the Republic's situation is in large part an unfortunate result of the paradox of wanting things to happen, but not being allowed to truly advance the plot: For example, the Thukker reintegration "happened", but because the game can't be allowed to change there's been no noticeable advance in the Thukker-Republic situation since then; similarly, the slaves from the 9th-Gen freeing that ended up arriving in the Republic can never actually be allowed to influence Republic policy, because that would have implications for why FW is continuing to happen.

It's an unfortunate state of things that builds on - as others have mentioned - the extremely poor service the Republic has had in fiction; for example, in the original PF the Federation's aid was significantly less influential, more a case of covert military training and assistance than actually sending whole fleets straight to the Republic. Of course, this was also back when the Amarr were presumed to have only conquered large portions of the Minmatar, not absolutely overrun the entire civilization.

[Aria Jenneth]

Minmatar?

Superior pathos.

They can be suffering and dysfunctional on just about every level, but you still kinda want to root for them. It's not just the "underdog" status (though that is their designated position); it's also the history and the understandable-if-not-necessarily-practical determination to fully secure their freedom and revenge.

The dysfunction's a part of it, even-- more than just about any other faction (other than maybe the Caldari) they're struggling with their identity and what it "means to be Minmatar."

Unambiguous victory or awesomeness would tend to detract from the pathos, and would arguably be out of place considering the maybe-justifiable-but-still-dark path the civilization's been on. Revenge quests don't lend themselves to a lot of light and cheer.

[Anyanka Funk]

The Republic and the tribes are separate entities, like Raiders and Sani Sabik or Achurans and The Caldari State. So just like you will see less good in any government entity, the Republic in this case, there are many good things in the people of that government's culture. The tribes that make up the Republic have tons of good things about them and their different cultures. The Republic on the other hand, I agree, has almost nothing positive to show besides awesome ships.

[Samira Kernher]

Mizhara, I wouldn't say it's Gesakaarin trolling. I know that this issue is something that Ava has complained a lot about as well for example.

All that being said, it's not something I agree with personally.

1) For where it started from, the Republic has come a long way in a very short amount of time. Yes, it's fractured. Yes, it's hit and miss. But it defeated the most militarily powerful empire largely on its own. It was supplied arms and training by the Gallente/Jove. It was not supplied with fleets or even (a significant amount of) troops. It fought, and won, its own battles, and succeeded in winning even more territory than it originally lost to the Empire in the first place. Like any largely special operations-backed guerilla movement, it is mostly the work of the people rather than the supporters. The supporters are providing equalizing and force multiplying elements like money, training, and weapons, but they are not doing the fighting. Find one single nation that has won a rebellion and done it without the help and backing of more powerful nations. I don't think you'd be able to find one. Rebellions start from a severely disadvantaged position, they need that backing just to get up to a somewhat even level with the people they're fighting against. It is NO mark against them to win only by help. The fact that they won at all is actually a very rare and difficult thing to acheive.

2) The Republic's government issues are very similar to any nation in a similar scenario. As in most such scenarios, the destablizing elements are most often the fault of the patron nation tending to back elements that are in its own interests rather than the interests of the other country. Most of the Minmatars' problems are the result of Amarrian and Federal influences. The Republic is a nation in growing pains, that is getting tugged back and forth by many outside forces along with its own internal extremist elements (which, by merit of saying 'fuck you' to the outside forces tends to inspire a lot of support among a populace that feels its destiny has been out of its own hands). Its current government is a radical one, while its former one was essentially a puppet government. It'll eventually grow into something stable, but it takes time. The country is still learning what it wants to be.

3) Science and technology. The Republic has made as many innovations as the other empires. Stasis webifiers are a Minmatar invention (according to the fact that web bonus traits on ships are always given as a 'Minmatar' skill), and as miniaturization of existing tech seems to be their thing (see the recent scientific breakthrough last year regarding gravity well tech), I would expect the microwarpdrive is also a Minmatar invention (probably taking the gallente warp tech and then reverse engineering it to be usable in combat for their fast strike fleet doctrines). They're also very good with sensor tech, judging by their focus on signature enhancement and reduction technology. The Boundless Creations article also seems to imply that the Minmatar perfected shield boosters (and Core Complexion developed ancillary shield boosters) and states that they coded the algorithm used in all modern tracking enhancing modules. And Eifyr and Co. are a well-regarded cybernetics company and they developed Synth combat boosters.

4) Crime in the Republic, while once a big thing (and expected, again, for being in growing pains and being subject to the whims of patron nations), is down a lot in recent years. As a nation, it is stabilizing and it is putting down those unsavory elements. I'd also expect a significant chunk of those elements comes from recently freed slaves who just recently arrived in the Republic and are desperate and fall into poor situations, rather than established families that have managed to find their place in the society. Keep in mind that crime in a society tends to happen primarily among the least enfranchised members, which in the Republic is going to be mostly former slaves who have just arrived and haven't built up any support network.

5) Social welfare. The Republic is probably second after the Federation in providing for its people. It doesn't have as strong of an economy as the other empires and so what it can reasonably provide is limited, but it does have more of a support system than either the State (where you drop off the map entirely and become untouchable) or the Empire (where your main options when disenfranchised are church charities or selling yourself/family into slavery). Republic tribes and clans meanwhile provide a decent support system that people can draw on. According to the Emancipation Decree news reports, and from CCP Eterne's unofficial writings, even a new immigrant former slave from the Empire, with no voluval and part of no clan or tribe, is still provided free food, housing, health care, and work and education placements (when they can be found) when they get to the Republic. They do, in fact, support the people they come for. It is difficult for them on an economic level, but they do it.

6) The assault on CONCORD and the Empire did what it set out to do. The Elder invasion was done to rescue the Starkmanir. It accomplished this. While it might have suffered more casualties than it expected, it had a mission objective and it achieved that objective. If there's any negative result of the invasion, it's that it reached too far and turned into the trench war of FW rather than taking its victory as the victory that it was.

7) Colelie was a statement. Again, it accomplished its objectives, even if it suffered casualties. The Republic showed that it will not play second fiddle to the Federation anymore. Consider it like any slave rebellion that is doomed to failure--for some people, that doom is worth it for the statement it makes. "We will not back down to you," or even just, "I die free." I really dislike this tendency to view things from a purely tactical perspective and not by a cultural one.

"Slave army, yes. Managed to get a hold of Vitoc. They knew it wouldn't last; even if they got control, the Vitoc would eventually run out. So they were riding high on their luck, but they were never going to rule the planet. They were good with their words, and good at getting people excited, and they only wanted to lash out, like some young people do without heeding the consequences when they don't know anything else." - Daughters of the Revolution

Consider that quote and then apply it to Colelie. Just because you know you are going to fall, does not mean you should not make the statement regardless. We are talking about the Minmatar here. Some people would call it stupid, they would call it bravery. Now, it could be said that the point they were making a statement over was something silly, but only if viewed from a limited scope. I don't view Colelie as being about just Midular and the killer though. I'd honestly consider that secondary. I think Colelie was meant as a wider statement, a commentary on the Federation's treatment of the Republic as children that must do as it says. Under Shakor, that kind of treatment is something the Republic will no longer submit to, and Colelie was where they made that clear. Minmatar value their pride over their lives. From that perspective, Colelie was a success.

[Mizhara]

Positives to show? Well, I can honestly think of more of them for Minmatar than most others.

Vibrant tribal cultures, containing elements from some of the most interesting real life cultures around, including but not limited to Maori, Norse etc etc. If you're looking for a mish-mash of spiritualism, shamanism, warrior culture and so on you'll never find a better option in this game and very few others.

Versatility. There's pretty much nothing you won't find somewhere in Minmatar culture and population. The freed slaves (and all the sub-variants thereof from rawrmatar through faithmatar etc), the Ammatar, the Republicans, the Tribals, the exiles, the emigrated, the immigrated, the every-day men and women, the military, the shamans, the rebels, the matriarchs/patriarchs, the clanless, the clanheads, the ogodI'llneverrunoutofthings.

There's the oft-mentioned underdog status, which also touches upon one of their greatest strengths, their indomitable will and capacity for going on in the face of pretty much anything.

There's their unprecedented and unrivaled millennia long period of peace and prosperity, which is unbelievably impressive to me at least.

"Cowboy" Engineering. It's a fun little trope that can definitely become a cliche, but there's no way around how CCP has made the Minmatar capable of taking a wrench into a scrapheap and an hour later launch a fleet capable of taking on the Empire and winning. While others may be more technologically advanced, it's a fairly significant positive that they can do unbelievable things with the most basic of assets.

War. A people who first spent a millennia forging peace have now picked up the weapons wrested from their enemies and are now continually kicking ass with it. It's not necessarily a positive as far as results or consequences go, but it's a very positive feature for anyone wishing to play the warrior. It's another push towards the notion of indomitable will etc.

They took on not only the Empire, but CONCORD and the Empress' space magic and still achieved the objective. Tribes on the verge of extinction, saved from their fate. Show me one faction in Eve that has achieved something that astounding, from that starting position.

The list of positives for the Minmatar is longer than this, but I'm sure we can pretend they don't exist. I mean, most people do.

Fakeedit: I do consider it trolling when Gesakaarin is flat out saying there are no positives at all. It's such a flat out insane statement that no one'd make if they didn't have a reason to do so, Sami. That said, I largely agree with the rest of your post.

[Nissui]

I wouldn't say that the Republic is a particularly hard sell for new players, or for role players necessarily. As has been mentioned, the cursory information available on character creation more or less paints them as independent operators who are now digging their heels in after a successful rebellion. Theirs is the cathartic aspect of rediscovering one's heritage as well, which seems to be highlighted in the flavor text and in wiki articles or chronicles should players research them, and those two things are enough I think to sell players on at least trying the Minmatar faction, formidable PvP silhouette notwithstanding.

On a personal level, I was attracted to the tribal culture and social dynamics set in the backdrop of galactic exploration more than the ex-slave narrative. That has probably come through in the way that Nis never fought the Amarr or supported the Republic form of governance.

The empires all seem to suffer various degrees of dysfunction, and I almost wonder if the Gallente are not worse off than the Minmatar in that regard, but I am no loremaster and that is a topic for another thread I'd wager.

[Lyn Farel]

To me, the Ammatar have absolutely nothing to do with the Minmatar faction. The only thing they share is shared history and a certain amount of cultural remnants, but they are insignificant in regards to what the faction is : an ammarian offshoot with its own flavour, like Khanid is. In terms of brand, it's completely different.

4) Crime in the Republic, while once a big thing (and expected, again, for being in growing pains and being subject to the whims of patron nations), is down a lot in recent years. As a nation, it is stabilizing and it is putting down those unsavory elements. I'd also expect a significant chunk of those elements comes from recently freed slaves who just recently arrived in the Republic and are desperate and fall into poor situations, rather than established families that have managed to find their place in the society. Keep in mind that crime in a society tends to happen primarily among the least enfranchised members, which in the Republic is going to be mostly former slaves who have just arrived and haven't built up any support network.

Out of curiosity, where do you take that information on crime in the republic being down a lot in recent years ?

Also, and it has probably disappeared in the limbo of the old lore, but the Matari people was once stated in its very main description that a good chunk of its population turned to criminality and piracy due to their overpopulation (the most numerous of the cluster) and also out of opportunities, and that in fact the majority of the pirate elements in New Eden were of Matari origin. I wonder what happened to that bit of lore.

7) Colelie was a statement. Again, it accomplished its objectives, even if it suffered casualties. The Republic showed that it will not play second fiddle to the Federation anymore. Consider it like any slave rebellion that is doomed to failure--for some people, that doom is worth it for the statement it makes. "We will not back down to you," or even just, "I die free." I really dislike this tendency to view things from a purely tactical perspective and not by a cultural one.

Yes, that's a good explanation that was brought many times. I think it is the best way to make sense out of it, and that it brings a lot of cultural relativism. But to me it's as you say, what a group of slaves would do, or a group of oppressed people. Not what a serious government spanning over hundred star systems would do.

I think Gwen has grasped the general gist of my opinions and assertions so far.

I'll elaborate a bit more on my initial thoughts with the following line:

The majority of loyalist factional roleplay is nothing more than an exercise in the creation of perceptions and propaganda, which in order to ensure continued player investment there needs to be a successful factional brand identity.

Some might disagree with that sentiment and that's fine. However, following down that line of reasoning I would say that buying into a faction as a loyalist roleplayer is no different to me than buying into any other type of product brand whether it's Prada, Gucci, Nike, BMW, Audi, and so on. Taken from the perspective of marketing and advertising in brief for the factions I just feel the CCP PF treatment and the Live Events make the Minmatar and the Republic a lot less appealing and a harder sell for new players and new roleplayers especially.

This is no attempt at trying to "shit" on the Minmatar or the Republic, in fact it's the opposite: I'm trying to point out that to me it's a really hard sell due to a variety of factors. I believe that lack for a Minmatar or Republic loyalist type character to invest in the brand is not a good thing, it is in fact a bad thing.

Like I said, people are people, and if a person goes out and buys a certain brand a large part of why they invested in it is in fact to feel proud about it, that there's premium qualities to it, that they can believe in what is being sold.

Right now, I do believe there is an undercurrent of negative bias towards the Minmatar and the Republic in recent years as regards their portrayal and seeming continued lack of success. I'm not the one here saying how dead Minmatar RP though -- that's others -- and it's due to that lack of success, as portrayed in PF and lore that I feel diminishes it as a compelling faction to sign up for these days in comparison to others.

I'm not sure how that's trolling, because I certainly have little intention of making people mad over internet spaceships by any means. If I did have an intention to provoke, it would not be for anger but rather for people to consider and provide positive qualities to sell for the Minmatar as a faction to others.

Yes I definitely agree with that. But I still think the Matari have way more directly accessible brand than the Gallente for example. The gallente have always been the easiest faction to play as since it's the closest to our western culture, but it is also the hardest ever in terms of world building, since most of the things of the lore are always in the vein "The gallente are many things, because every member state of the Federation is its own culture and is different".

[Lyn Farel]

I wouldn't say that the Republic is a particularly hard sell for new players, or for role players necessarily. As has been mentioned, the cursory information available on character creation more or less paints them as independent operators who are now digging their heels in after a successful rebellion. Theirs is the cathartic aspect of rediscovering one's heritage as well, which seems to be highlighted in the flavor text and in wiki articles or chronicles should players research them, and those two things are enough I think to sell players on at least trying the Minmatar faction, formidable PvP silhouette notwithstanding.

On a personal level, I was attracted to the tribal culture and social dynamics set in the backdrop of galactic exploration more than the ex-slave narrative. That has probably come through in the way that Nis never fought the Amarr or supported the Republic form of governance.

The empires all seem to suffer various degrees of dysfunction, and I almost wonder if the Gallente are not worse off than the Minmatar in that regard, but I am no loremaster and that is a topic for another thread I'd wager.

Positives to show? Well, I can honestly think of more of them for Minmatar than most others.

Vibrant tribal cultures, containing elements from some of the most interesting real life cultures around, including but not limited to Maori, Norse etc etc. If you're looking for a mish-mash of spiritualism, shamanism, warrior culture and so on you'll never find a better option in this game and very few others.

Versatility. There's pretty much nothing you won't find somewhere in Minmatar culture and population. The freed slaves (and all the sub-variants thereof from rawrmatar through faithmatar etc), the Ammatar, the Republicans, the Tribals, the exiles, the emigrated, the immigrated, the every-day men and women, the military, the shamans, the rebels, the matriarchs/patriarchs, the clanless, the clanheads, the ogodI'llneverrunoutofthings.

There's the oft-mentioned underdog status, which also touches upon one of their greatest strengths, their indomitable will and capacity for going on in the face of pretty much anything.

There's their unprecedented and unrivaled millennia long period of peace and prosperity, which is unbelievably impressive to me at least.

"Cowboy" Engineering. It's a fun little trope that can definitely become a cliche, but there's no way around how CCP has made the Minmatar capable of taking a wrench into a scrapheap and an hour later launch a fleet capable of taking on the Empire and winning. While others may be more technologically advanced, it's a fairly significant positive that they can do unbelievable things with the most basic of assets.

War. A people who first spent a millennia forging peace have now picked up the weapons wrested from their enemies and are now continually kicking ass with it. It's not necessarily a positive as far as results or consequences go, but it's a very positive feature for anyone wishing to play the warrior. It's another push towards the notion of indomitable will etc.

They took on not only the Empire, but CONCORD and the Empress' space magic and still achieved the objective. Tribes on the verge of extinction, saved from their fate. Show me one faction in Eve that has achieved something that astounding, from that starting position.

The list of positives for the Minmatar is longer than this, but I'm sure we can pretend they don't exist. I mean, most people do.

^There we go, it's probably a good piece of positive traits to the Minmatar, Veik.

( except the fake edit )

[Kyoko Sakoda]

Only skimmed this thread because of my not giving a shit, but I will say the following:

• The Sebbies are amazing at engineering something from nothing and just engineering in general.
• The Brutor are great warriors.
• The Vherokior are excellent traders and pathfinders.

Eh, yeah lore is not where it was back in 2003-2007, but why bitch so much?

[Samira Kernher]

Out of curiosity, where do you take that information on crime in the republic being down a lot in recent years ?

Source.

Overall Crime Rate Fall since YC 113: 24.73%
(Republic Justice Department Report, YC 114)

Also, and it has probably disappeared in the limbo of the old lore, but the Matari people was once stated in its very main description that a good chunk of its population turned to criminality and piracy due to their overpopulation (the most numerous of the cluster) and also out of opportunities, and that in fact the majority of the pirate elements in New Eden were of Matari origin. I wonder what happened to that bit of lore.

Nothing has happened to it? I'm pretty sure that's still the case, and it makes sense as Minmatar are the largest ethnicity in New Eden.

Yes, that's a good explanation that was brought many times. I think it is the best way to make sense out of it, and that it brings a lot of cultural relativism. But to me it's as you say, what a group of slaves would do, or a group of oppressed people. Not what a serious government spanning over hundred star systems would do.

It is when that is the cultural mindset of that government and especially when you have a radical nationalist in charge of it.