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[Veiki]

Recently I've been pondering the Minmatar and for myself it seems that in regards to their portrayal in the lore and fiction the Republic and the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture. When I go through the lore of the Minmatar and the Republic:

- They were militarily defeated by the Amarr Empire and the majority became enslaved.
- They rebelled, but they only succeeded because they were assisted by the Federation and the Jove.
- The Minmatar create a Republic but it is depicted as so terrible due to internecine tribal factionalism, official corruption, and a failing economy a significant majority would rather live in the Federation or join a criminal cartel.
- To reinforce how terrible the Republic is, people feel becoming a criminal and all that entails is a better life than living there.
- Republic military successes are never actually a success:
 - The assault on CONCORD and the Empire results in the almost complete destruction of the Minmatar Fleets. Fleets that took decades to construct, and which were funded by economic development funds from the Federation. Essentially, the Republic embezzled all the money that could have been used to build up their economy and create jobs resulting in decades of poverty and unemployment only for their Grand Plan to be derped in a day.
- Republic leadership in government is typified by a complete lack of Statecraft, or foresight. Instead, they are portrayed as people who can never see beyond their nose and are easily angered into doing dumb things like Colelie.
- They come for their people, and only end up with a lot of people they cannot support economically. Welcome to the Republic, you are free from slavery, may you enjoy the liberties of unemployment.

I could go on, but it just seems like that in an attempt to make the Minmatar and the Republic as some kind of "underdogs" to root for CCP has just ended up giving them every single possible third world trope in their lore, fiction, style, and presentation that the society seems to end up being written at present as some kind of parody that can accomplish little on their own militarily, economically, or politically.

In comparison to the other major powers in Eve, I have to ask: Is the Republic actually good at anything?

[Gwen Ikiryo]

One could equally argue that the Empire is useless on the basis that it's lost every war/battle in modern times (500 years) depicted in the background, often against much smaller forces. Kingdom, Republic, Jove, Federation Kind Of... The only time it sort of won was due to space magic. It also has most of it's most sacred traditions portrayed as being stepped on repeatedly, the cloned empress thing being the least of it.

The whole south of the cluster seems to be basically defined by a sequence of deus ex machinas or influence from outside sources, rather than having any will of it's own. Even the Amarrian religion is implied to just be the product of the Jove/some other ancient civilization messing with them for some reason.

(What am I saying, the "whole south"? That's basically everything in this awful setting!)

[Veiki]

One could equally argue that the Empire is useless on the basis that it's lost every war/battle in modern times (500 years) depicted in the background, often against much smaller forces. Kingdom, Republic, Jove, Federation Kind Of... The only time it sort of won was due to space magic. It also has most of it's most sacred traditions portrayed as being stepped on repeatedly, the cloned empress thing being the least of it.

The whole south of the cluster seems to be basically defined by a sequence of deus ex machinas or influence from outside sources, rather than having any will of it's own. Even the Amarrian religion is implied to just be the product of the Jove/some other ancient civilization messing with them for some reason.

(What am I saying, the "whole south"? That's basically everything in this awful setting!)

Heh. This really wasn't intended as some kind of PF competition of who is the best and most powerful vis-a-vis all the rest. Rather, it's about how the portrayal of the Minmatar and the Republic seems to leave very little positive to build upon once you move beyond slavery related issues. The Amarr Empire for example has slavery related issues, but to take your example, even if it's never won a battle in the last few centuries it still remains portrayed as a strong military and economic power.

The issue for me though is if you're a new player and choose a Minmatar character, then you end up with a Republic that seems portrayed with little positive attributes attached to it beyond being the underdog - which seems a bit like a backhand compliment.

Then again maybe it's just a matter of personal perspective and given the PF provided, the Republic truly is presented as the military, economic, political, and cultural rivals of the other major factions and is able to project a sense of real power when compared to them?

[Alain Colcer]

I always thought the minmatar where the best traders (as in moving stuff from A to B).

But yes i think they are really lacking some cool aspect as a society, the tattoos doesnt cut it.

[Mizhara]

Yes, they're clearly terribad. Let's completely ignore every positive side in the past and present.
Except, you know, doing it to any other of the races would be disingenuous.

[Mizhara]

- They were militarily defeated by the Amarr Empire and the majority became enslaved.
 - Military defeats being unique to Minmatar. We haven't seen it happen to anyone else, have we? Besides, it's clearly a black mark against the Minmatar that a giant warmachine who's entire existence was based on militaristic expansion managed to defeat a society that had spent the entire last millennium in peace.

- They rebelled, but they only succeeded because they were assisted by the Federation and the Jove.
 - So a successful rebellion, from a completely hopeless position, is invalidated because they didn't do it entirely alone? U wot?

- The Minmatar create a Republic but it is depicted as so terrible due to internecine tribal factionalism, official corruption, and a failing economy a significant majority would rather live in the Federation or join a criminal cartel.
 - The Federation created a Republic, enforcing the failure of democracy on a people who's culture doesn't work that way, then those people are to be blamed for it? Well obviously, because they're the ones you're trying to stir up shit about.

- To reinforce how terrible the Republic is, people feel becoming a criminal and all that entails is a better life than living there.
 - Hmm, I guess the Guri, Serps and so on have no grievances with their previous citizenships. They joined up for the cookies.

- Republic military successes are never actually a success:
 - The assault on CONCORD and the Empire results in the almost complete destruction of the Minmatar Fleets. Fleets that took decades to construct, and which were funded by economic development funds from the Federation. Essentially, the Republic embezzled all the money that could have been used to build up their economy and create jobs resulting in decades of poverty and unemployment only for their Grand Plan to be derped in a day.
 - Ah yes, because space magic didn't cause that at all, and successfully achieving the objective of rescuing the tribes that were on the verge of extinction does not count because reasons.

- Republic leadership in government is typified by a complete lack of Statecraft, or foresight. Instead, they are portrayed as people who can never see beyond their nose and are easily angered into doing dumb things like Colelie.
 - Incompetent politicians? Surely a uniquely Minmatar trait we haven't seen among any of the other factions. ... wait, hang on a minute.

- They come for their people, and only end up with a lot of people they cannot support economically. Welcome to the Republic, you are free from slavery, may you enjoy the liberties of unemployment.
 - Yeah, I mean the hostile act of dumping countless indoctrinated zealots and hostiles on the Republic was the Republic's fault. This was in no way intentionally done by a hostile foreign power.

I could go on, but it just seems like that in an attempt to make the Minmatar and the Republic as some kind of "underdogs" to root for CCP has just ended up giving them every single possible third world trope in their lore, fiction, style, and presentation that the society seems to end up being written at present as some kind of parody that can accomplish little on their own militarily, economically, or politically.

In comparison to the other major powers in Eve, I have to ask: Is the Republic actually good at anything?

Clearly good at attracting trolls with an agenda.

[Ember Vykos]

stuff

Wow Miz...tell us how you really feel. 

I don't think Gesakaarin was trying to shit on the Minmatar in comparison to the other empires. I never really looked at it closely, but they do raise some points. Sure like you just said they arent the only empire with problems, but I do think the Minmatar do have a bit more problems than some of the others.

The one thing I always gave the Minnies was a kind of stubborn pride. They as a people seemed to have John Wayne levels of grit when it was needed.

[Mizhara]

I'd say claiming there isn't -one- positive feature to the tribes is shitting on it.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I think CCP are really bad at creating things for people to be proud about in terms of factions in general, to be honest. They portray every single government in the game as a bunch of undiplomatic screwups constantly compromising their own values and making terrible and internally contradictory decisions at every turn. Plus, conflicts always resolve in ways that are indecisively pyrrhic and miserable for everyone involved, with no one getting what they want.

[kalaratiri]

Miz, as the self proclaimed "last minmatar roleplayer", do you not think there could be a reason nobody wants to join up with Matari RP? I think Veik raises some good points. The Minmatar haven't had anything to go "look what we did, isn't that shit cool?" for years.

[Mizhara]

Miz, as the self proclaimed "last minmatar roleplayer", do you not think there could be a reason nobody wants to join up with Matari RP? I think Veik raises some good points. The Minmatar haven't had anything to go "look what we did, isn't that shit cool?" for years.

How about we don't take jokes into the discussion as if they've ever been uttered seriously?

And yes, I'm well aware of the various problems with the Matari issues, as I've been quite loudly proclaiming throughout god knows how many channels and discussion fora for quite some time. I still take exception when the faction is being quite erroneously claimed to have no positive features at all. "the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture." is a claim I'm going to need some quite serious citation for, especially when it's followed by a laundry list of things that are flat out written just to stir shit up, as every single point on the list can be attributed to all of the factions.

A topic on the subject of the portrayal of the Republic is all well and good. A topic setting out entirely to do nothing but shit on it is not.

[Morwen Lagann]

The Minmatar are pretty damn good at violating treaties they've signed.

Does that count as a plus?

[Ember Vykos]

Miz, as the self proclaimed "last minmatar roleplayer", do you not think there could be a reason nobody wants to join up with Matari RP? I think Veik raises some good points. The Minmatar haven't had anything to go "look what we did, isn't that shit cool?" for years.

How about we don't take jokes into the discussion as if they've ever been uttered seriously?

And yes, I'm well aware of the various problems with the Matari issues, as I've been quite loudly proclaiming throughout god knows how many channels and discussion fora for quite some time. I still take exception when the faction is being quite erroneously claimed to have no positive features at all. "the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture." is a claim I'm going to need some quite serious citation for, especially when it's followed by a laundry list of things that are flat out written just to stir shit up, as every single point on the list can be attributed to all of the factions.

A topic on the subject of the portrayal of the Republic is all well and good. A topic setting out entirely to do nothing but shit on it is not.

While every single point can be attributed to all the other factions...all the other factions have "good" points to go along with the bad. Minmatar do seem a bit lacking in that department. Sure you have the elder fleet, but as Veik pointed out when looked at on the big picture long term type of scale it was pretty much a huge waste of resources that could have been used better. I like their underlying stoicism, but I don't see a whole lot about the Republic to really see as  a huge positive. v0v

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I realize saying this is a bit odd to say after my last post - Which I suppose was made in recognition of the fact that it's something that's very important to a ton of roleplayers - But I've never really got why it's often so important for RPers for their faction to be the "best", in some regard, in a way they need to feel proud about. It strikes me as weighing things from an inside-context rather than outside-context perspective, which seems very odd, since it's your character that's inherently going to be emotionally attached to that faction, not, well, you.

Disparity between haves and have-nots makes for an engaging world. There are just as many, if not more, interesting themes to explore with a character who comes from a impoverished and unstable state as there are from one that is dominant and powerful, whether they're cynical about the state of affairs, or still eagerly patriotic in spite of them, and determined to remain proud of their heritage regardless and change things for the better. In fact, I'd go as far to say that making a hyper patriotic character from a powerful or morally straight-and-narrow country is one of the duller RP angles around, as there's little room for meaningful introspection regarding it. So, I don't get why it seems to put people off.

It's also a lot more realistic than having the standard MMO factions-in-perfect-equilibrium business. If you look at our world, there are undeniably places, and peoples, that are, as extremely shitty as it is, better off in every fashion than others.

All that being said, I don't think the Republic per-se fits into this model I'm talking about. I think it's more a victim of lazy and bad writing that really something deliberately written as screwed up as it comes across. TEA did it a disservice, and rather than really mop that up like it has with the rest of the factions in the live-content binge of early 2013, it seems like CCP set it vaguely on track for a Caldari-esque redemption arc of some sort, but ran out of time/lost interest before it could reach it's climax and subsequent conclusion, rendering it stuck in an awkward limbo where it looks kind of all over the place.

Which really sucks. But then, like I already said, this games whole setting basically sucks, so.

[Veiki]

I think Gwen has grasped the general gist of my opinions and assertions so far.

I'll elaborate a bit more on my initial thoughts with the following line:

The majority of loyalist factional roleplay is nothing more than an exercise in the creation of perceptions and propaganda, which in order to ensure continued player investment there needs to be a successful factional brand identity.

Some might disagree with that sentiment and that's fine. However, following down that line of reasoning I would say that buying into a faction as a loyalist roleplayer is no different to me than buying into any other type of product brand whether it's Prada, Gucci, Nike, BMW, Audi, and so on. Taken from the perspective of marketing and advertising in brief for the factions I just feel the CCP PF treatment and the Live Events make the Minmatar and the Republic a lot less appealing and a harder sell for new players and new roleplayers especially.

This is no attempt at trying to "shit" on the Minmatar or the Republic, in fact it's the opposite: I'm trying to point out that to me it's a really hard sell due to a variety of factors. I believe that lack for a Minmatar or Republic loyalist type character to invest in the brand is not a good thing, it is in fact a bad thing.

Like I said, people are people, and if a person goes out and buys a certain brand a large part of why they invested in it is in fact to feel proud about it, that there's premium qualities to it, that they can believe in what is being sold.

Right now, I do believe there is an undercurrent of negative bias towards the Minmatar and the Republic in recent years as regards their portrayal and seeming continued lack of success. I'm not the one here saying how dead Minmatar RP though -- that's others -- and it's due to that lack of success, as portrayed in PF and lore that I feel diminishes it as a compelling faction to sign up for these days in comparison to others.

I'm not sure how that's trolling, because I certainly have little intention of making people mad over internet spaceships by any means. If I did have an intention to provoke, it would not be for anger but rather for people to consider and provide positive qualities to sell for the Minmatar as a faction to others.