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[Louella Dougans]

the Amarr saw the Minmatar as a pawn, to advance the Reclaiming.
the Gallente saw the Minmatar as a pawn, to keep the Amarr in check.
the Jovians saw the Minmatar as a pawn for their own benefit.
the Elders saw the Minmatar as a pawn, for Operation Pawn Sacrifice, to protect their own schemes.

everyone sees the Minmatar as pawns for their own reasons.

and CCP seems happy to continue with stories that back this up.

the whole thing about the Minmatar being all about self-determination and all that, and yet, they're written as being pawns. Pawns they are, and pawns they forever will be.

:S

[Anyanka Funk]

the Amarr saw the Minmatar as a pawn, to advance the Reclaiming.
the Gallente saw the Minmatar as a pawn, to keep the Amarr in check.
the Jovians saw the Minmatar as a pawn for their own benefit.
the Elders saw the Minmatar as a pawn, for Operation Pawn Sacrifice, to protect their own schemes.

everyone sees the Minmatar as pawns for their own reasons.

and CCP seems happy to continue with stories that back this up.

the whole thing about the Minmatar being all about self-determination and all that, and yet, they're written as being pawns. Pawns they are, and pawns they forever will be.

:S

Confirmed Sani Sabik pawns too.

[Ava Starfire]

How I missed this...

Yes, the Minmatar look incompetent and without redeeming quality in PF as a nation-state, but damned if they dont cause ALL the problems.

Gee, I wonder if that's led to the complete lack of minny RPers/factional groups, especially when you consider that the few that DO exist are without fail "We hate teh Republic!!11!1!1"

[Lyn Farel]

I think that's the issue. The Minmatar in themselves do not really lack of interest as a faction, especially flavour wise. They have a lot of strong pros playing in their favour as Miz pointed.

The issue is the Republic. Supporting the Republic, is similar to supporting CONCORD or the Mandate. It's like shooting oneself in the foot. Not that it's completely uninteresting imo, but be ready to spend your time admitting to everyone arguing with you "Yeah, we suck... I try to do something to improve things, no matter how stupid and incompetent my faction is, I am still loyal, for what it's worth".

Since well, basically, you have near to zero arguments that can work in your favour, so the only remaining thing to do is to admit that it's a lost cause.

That being said, now that the fail Midular republic has fallen, and replaced by the Shakor tribal council thingy, isn't there a bit of room for improvement ? Things seem to be depicted as improving on that side for the Matari, even with all the issues they have besides... There might be stuff to build around the Tribal lore and caravans they added in the last news on the matter.

[Gottii]

I think its fair to say that the Minmatar have certainly been mishandled.  They have such a rich background and influences as a faction. 

But now they've been regulated to Space Haiti. 

[Morwen Lagann]

Since Gottii's here now, another thing to add to the list of things the Republic is bad at: Whoring on killmails with Dramiels.

\o\

[Elmund Egivand]

Since Gottii's here now, another thing to add to the list of things the Republic is bad at: Whoring on killmails with Dramiels.

\o\

To be fair Dramiels aren't that great anymore these days.

[Morwen Lagann]

Since Gottii's here now, another thing to add to the list of things the Republic is bad at: Whoring on killmails with Dramiels.

\o\

To be fair Dramiels aren't that great anymore these days.

This was back in the day when they were kings.

[Gottii]

I was an early adapter to the cheese that was the Dramiel.

And no I only KM whore on Sansha actor carriers.  I was all srs bsns in pvp yo.

[Karmilla Strife]

I miss cheesy dramiels and easy sansha actor carrier kills...

who the fuck are mordus and how the fuck did they steal my speed and sig radius?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I don't have much to say but I will say that, understandably, this thread is glazed in westernized perceptions of "developing nations".

Careful that you don't wander so far away from "westernised perceptions of developing nations" that you pass right through "observation of empirical events" and into "noble savage" territory.

Regarding the Minmatar, I have to agree that the problem is that the 'good things' about the faction seem to be in spite of it's society and not because of it. Neither version of the Republic has served the faction terribly well - Midular's Republic by being too weak and Shakor's Republic by being insanely hardheaded and contentious at the cost of achieving ANYTHING.

And let's not pretend the whole Elder Fleet thing wasn't a total debacle that couldn't have been achieved with a bunch of transports and a little bit of sleight-of-hand. All they had to do was arrange for a significant number of Starkmanir and Nefantar tribespeople to be bought on the open market or liberated.

Blasting Concord fucked over their supposed ally, the Gallente and the less said about their invasion of Amarr space the better, really. Any accusations that this occured solely as a result of magic space weapons is easily countered with  the point that the only reason they rescued the Starkmanir was due to a Deus ex Machina buttload of Nefantar double-triple-quadruple agents.

None of which is "Shitting all over the Minmatar" it's just pointing out how weak the Lore is for the Minnies. Nobody's suggesting that they're deserving of bad writing and, let's remember that anything that stands out as egregiously awful in a setting that includes 'Space Zombie Lesbian Princess Jamyl' and 'Heil Hethler' is notable.

[Sinjin Mokk]

I think CCP are really bad at creating things for people to be proud about in terms of factions in general, to be honest. They portray every single government in the game as a bunch of undiplomatic screwups constantly compromising their own values and making terrible and internally contradictory decisions at every turn. Plus, conflicts always resolve in ways that are indecisively pyrrhic and miserable for everyone involved, with no one getting what they want.

CCP content secretly written by George R.R. Martin.

[Davlos]

Is it strange that as a Caldari RPer, I actually like the Minmatar faction and envy them in some ways? The Matari have some of the most innovative and ingenious engineers and scientists in the cluster, and their fighting spirit and ability to endure and survive every hardship thrown their way are traits which any Caldari character would recognize and admire from afar.

The Matari also have a vibrant cultural background which is quite unbeatable in its variety and richness. I wish Caldari stuff has more of that.

[Valadeus]

Mizhara and Ava...

I certainly understand the frustration, anger and bitterness you both express regarding the Minmatar. I also know you both are very passionate about them.

With that said, I think a lot more could be accomplished in the area of getting support and interest in the Minmatar (especially from other RPers) if you both didn't respond to threads like this one with such venom.

I'm not trying to call you both out...even though I guess that's what I'm doing. (Sorry).

I feel where you're both coming from, but this thread is actually a pretty good discussion and (whether Veik intended it this way or not, I can't say), seems to be more about people coming to the table in support of the Minmatar not in opposition to them. It's more like a unified "we recognize that things could be handled better for the Minmatar" not "wow, these guys suck."

Just my interjection. Sorry.

[Arkon Sarain]

Is it strange that as a Caldari RPer, I actually like the Minmatar faction and envy them in some ways?

I don't think so at all, I mean I play an Amarr character and I (the player) find Minmatar culture fascinating to read and interact with - even if Arkon, the character, thinks it may be a little backward and not proper hehe ^_^

I imagine most people who play characters who are loyal to one faction or another do not necessarily preclude themselves, as players, from enjoying the lore surrounding other factions.