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That being a cruel slaver is actually a fitting description for Angel Cartel members as well?

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Author Topic: What is wrong with the lore : inconsistencies, plot holes, how to deal with them  (Read 7988 times)

Nauplius

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I'd consider 'Trashing' an item to be whatever you want to do with it, which in the case of people would mean returning to the general population.

This view does have implications, though — it means that people like the Disciples of Ston and Aurora Arcology could be IC-accused of being slave owners since they were or are accumulating vast numbers of people and not returning any of them to the general population.  Actually, if I remember right, some people in that giant Disciples of Ston thread did make that accusation against them; apparently DSTON believed both IC and OOC that they did not have they ability to return anyone to the general population.  In fact, if RPers generally accepted that returning passengers to the general population is possible, then hardly anyone outside of Nauplius would have any passengers in his hanger at all — storing people who could be released (and presumably want to be) is slavery.

Consider that when you give NPCs to dev actors, for example, they similarly delete them from the database, probably also through the Trash button. In these scenarios, it is treated as returning them to the general population (or in the case of food and supplies or research components, IE Morwen's Home and Hearth or the research race, it is sending these supplies/components to baseliner entities).

In other words: If dev actors treat the trash/delete button as sending/returning people/goods to the general population, then there's no reason why players cannot do likewise.

While I am generally in agreement with your oft-stated view that mechanics=IC, I am not convinced this applies to dev actors.



Related to both comments I thought of an additional question:  is it possible to free slaves (which involves not only releasing them into the population but changing their legal status)?  I think dev actors have done so, and I think some RPers behave as if this is possible, but then again some RPers behave as if it is not possible (DSTON and Aurora again) and once upon a time RPers tried to get CCP to make slave freeing an in-game mechanic, something they actually started to implement (some components made it into the database).  There's a additional mechanic here that might be presented as evidence against an ability to free slaves:  we have no way of changing their SCC market category to Freed Slaves or anything else.
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Lyn Farel

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I think that everything that ends up on SCC markets are out of the loop of everything else. It's on capsuleer markets, and deal with it basically. What bothers me is that CONCORD and SCC allows that to happen for living beings...
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Ollie

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To look at it from another perspective, maybe the only thing 'wrong' with the lore is that we're trying too hard to apply all the concepts that might work in creative writing or a tabletop game to an online MMO context?

EVE's not so different from any other MMO in that sense.
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Ashley

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People in Hangers (that is, Slaves, Science Graduates, Exotic Dancers, and so forth) —
  • Why is it legal to store people in hangers indefinitely (or "Trash" them there)?
  • How do people stored in hangers eat/drink/survive even though we pilots spend zero ISK on maintaining them?
  • Why can't people (or at least non-slaves) leave the hanger?
  • While there seems to be rough consensus that "hanger communities" are possible, what are the limits?  (note that with Nauplius I've avoided making the cheezy move, "OK, you've destroyed my starbase Blood Winery, but I'll just set up one in my hanger".  But on the other hand, some people RP entire colonies in hangers.)
there was a chronicle about this if I'm not mistaken.

found it \o/ click
[spoiler] The officer took the clipboard and checked the papers over. "Alright. The Deteis was one Adron Srif. Pronounced legally dead after a capsuleer raid on a station two years ago. Suspect is Frazov, Corporal in the Amarr Navy, listed as KIA a year ago during a raid by capsuleer pirates. The Empire's going to have a fun time working back into the system just to try him, I bet."

"Returning to life is never easy, for first you must die."

"Right. You know, I can make some calls, get your identities back. Bet you the capsuleer doesn't even know you're here. You don't have to live in this weird legal purgatory just because CONCORD and the empires can't get their acts straight." [/spoiler]
« Last Edit: 03 Feb 2015, 09:40 by Ashley »
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Pieter Tuulinen

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In the case of things like DSTONS camps and the Aurora arcology, you should really be keeping EVERYONE that's donated and is supposedly resident in your facilities in any capacity.

You would only trash/release people when they are fully processed and released back into the general cluster on their own resources. As an example, I maintain a Brigade of Marines. In Nonni I keep 4800 marines, who represent those assets. I don't regularly trash a couple of hundred and source another couple of hundred to represent turnover.

If I deploy the Marines, I don't physically move them or trash them. If I decided to disband my Brigade I could sell the marines (to represent cashing in the investment) or I could trash them (to represent simply disbanding them).
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Halcyon

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Ulaya actually has 20 Caldari light marines at Sortet. I need to obtain some civilians.

Esna Pitoojee

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I take a very relaxed attitude regarding how people deal with whatever is happening in their hangars. Since it's functionally impossible for me to see into anyone else's hangar without their consent and I can't prove or disprove what anyone is doing with their people, I'm happy to leave it up to what they say.

Personally I hang on to all my slaves ("freed" or otherwise) and other personnel as "spare props" for future events, but if someone says they're trashing them to free them I'm not really going to dispute.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

kalaratiri

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Since it's functionally impossible for me to see into anyone else's hangar without their consent

Not quite :P Does require you to be their CEO/Director though
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"Eve roleplayers scare me." - The Mittani

Anyanka Funk

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Being CEO/director and having an office where they keep their stuff.
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Pieter Tuulinen

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I take a very relaxed attitude regarding how people deal with whatever is happening in their hangars. Since it's functionally impossible for me to see into anyone else's hangar without their consent and I can't prove or disprove what anyone is doing with their people, I'm happy to leave it up to what they say.

Personally I hang on to all my slaves ("freed" or otherwise) and other personnel as "spare props" for future events, but if someone says they're trashing them to free them I'm not really going to dispute.

To be honest, I was approaching this more from the perspective of those who wish to have SOME sort of accounting for themselves, not really from the perspective of community enforcement of claims.
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Lyn Farel

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To look at it from another perspective, maybe the only thing 'wrong' with the lore is that we're trying too hard to apply all the concepts that might work in creative writing or a tabletop game to an online MMO context?

EVE's not so different from any other MMO in that sense.

Yes of course. And like in any other MMO I have played there was a need from RPers to adapt and/or ignore things that didn't match with the lore or simple logic. Here in Eve it is even more critical since its very nature makes that everything you do ingame matters to everyone else by default, and... Well. It creates all the issues we know.

Personally I hang on to all my slaves

I keep reading "I hang all my slaves" for some reason...  :P
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Halcyon

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Have we mentioned that D-scan only shows capsuleers?

Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Related to both comments I thought of an additional question:  is it possible to free slaves (which involves not only releasing them into the population but changing their legal status)?  I think dev actors have done so, and I think some RPers behave as if this is possible, but then again some RPers behave as if it is not possible (DSTON and Aurora again) and once upon a time RPers tried to get CCP to make slave freeing an in-game mechanic, something they actually started to implement (some components made it into the database).  There's a additional mechanic here that might be presented as evidence against an ability to free slaves:  we have no way of changing their SCC market category to Freed Slaves or anything else.

Tell me about it.

There was once some hints at starbase structures that would let us change the states on passenger types. Unfortunately they never got implemented. I don't know if that was down to a lack of interest at CCP or difficulties in coding it.

My preferred option would be to have LP offers that took one passenger type and turned them into something else. Possibly with some sort of item to let underground railroad types get past customs.
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Kind Regards,
Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Aria Jenneth

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Hrm. Since I'm currently undergoing my bi-yearly temptation to return, I'll weigh in.


Trashing sapient beings:

To me, there's no question-- unless you specify otherwise, you're letting them go. Similarly, there's no reason to think modules you "trash" are actually ending up incinerated or ejected from the station; probably, they're getting dropped into some station refuse area and picked over by scavengers for useful components. Trashing = relinquishing control and claim of ownership, nothing more. For your purposes, they're gone; for their own, probably not so much.


NPC kill rates in PVE:

The chronicles have made it clear that encountering a capsuleer is a nightmare scenario for a conventional fleet. Certainly, the death toll in an average encounter is catastrophic. However, that raises the question: even if every mission is "real," how much of a dent does this actually put in the population? The answer probably depends on how large the population is to start with.

My thinking is that capsuleers are also something that is much  less obvious from our own point of view: rare. In highsec, a very busy solar system might have a couple hundred (we're not counting Jita, which doesn't really "do" PvE).

If you figure that, actually, these solar systems are pretty fully populated, with deadspace pockets and asteroid colonies kinda all over the place, that those complexes you probe down in Exploration not only are there when you arrive but have been for years or decades, and just slipped up and let a signal escape that gave away their position, the scenario begins to make more sense. The empires and pirate factions are not merely nation states, but interstellar empires with, to our eyes, ridiculously large populations.

Aria always maintained that capsuleers are weapons of mass destruction.


CONCORD:

Two lines of thought.

(1) It's a mechanic, not a reality. In reality, CONCORD is dedicating whatever resources are required to destroy your ship. You lose. CCP is not going to just keep adding NPC rats until that happens, however.

(2) Alternatively: your ship's been pre-rigged to roll over and play dead when so-directed by CONCORD. However, since this only functions in highsec, the implication is that the system either requires stationary CONCORD facilities in-system ...

(which would make some sense; if it were as simple as onboard sabotage, someone would have found the device responsible and disabled it, then told everybody else how to do it)

... or that CONCORD has some reason for approaching things in just the way it does.

This last is lovely for conspiracy theorizing. Aria's theory was that CONCORD (and the empires' handling of capsuleers generally) was heavily manipulated by Jovian intelligence agencies, and might have been functionally captured by those same institutions. It all makes a lot more sense if you think of capsuleers as being Jovians-in-training, with a bunch of ruthless-but-doomed transhumans pulling strings behind the scenes.

This has the handy side effect of also explaining Sansha and the endless faction war: we're being trained. It has the downside of being an unabashed conspiracy theory. Then again, despite all their interstellar awesomeness it's their intelligence network that the Jove are really famous for, so.....


My own pet peeves:

* Tony G ...
* ... is officially canon.
* Never mind that this canon frequently contradicts other canon.
* Or that it deserves to have another "n" added ...
* ... and thereby made a "cannon" ...
* ... and fired.

"Ruthless," the desc-ignoring "origin story" for the Raven (which has the Raven as the new hotness and the Scorpion as the old warhorse, in exact reversal of the in-game item descriptions of the two ships), is only the most obvious example.
« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2015, 09:54 by Aria Jenneth »
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Louella Dougans

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they gave some numbers in EVE Source as to the population of the cluster. Was trillions.
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\o/
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