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[Seriphyn]

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1334388

Saw this thread startup...I think I have to go with it, and so far the people against the idea are your typical "HTFU THIS IS EVE NOT WOW CAREBEAR" without providing any valid arguments, instead just posting up what you should do with the given circumstance. I don't actually see any sort of valid point to learning, at all...new players are recommended by folk to train these immediately, and have to spend a month training useless stuff that won't increase their immersion into the game etc.

When we make our alts we all say "Yeah, just doing learning skills atm", but it's quite funny, we all take it for granted, instead of thinking it doesn't need to be there in the first place 

Thoughts?

[Mizhara]

There are simple workarounds. For us who create new accounts, we're already on a three week trial anyway from our main account, so by the time we'll actually pay for it, we're done with the learning skills. Then there's the new players. Let's face it, most new players? They have RL friends in Eve, or they're the guys who'll never finish the trial. (This is for the most part, no necessarily all of them).

Solution? (Which I used on two friends already). Two trials. One where they just train what they want, do what they want, try shit out. The other trial, under my nurturing hands, is doing learning skills. Once they've had three weeks of fucking shit up, having fun and so on... they get the other trial in their hands, ready to pay for. And to train much much faster on, with less mistakes made.

Of course, it'd be easier on new players without training skills... but then, I like them. I like the training skills. You sacrifice three weeks or a month on them, and it repays down the line. Then there's the players who go "... yeah, I'll just get these skills first. And then those. I gotta be able to fly a BC soon, you know... and then those... " long before they get learning skills... and they pay the price.

I like them. It says "I'm dedicating this character to a year of training, or all this time spent on learning skills will be wasted."

[Lillith Blackheart]

If they removed the learning skills they would have to adjust sp costs accordingly, as the sp costs are calculated based on the idea that learning skills exist.

So then, if they removed the learning skills, what about all the people who already sank all their SP into them? That's 2mil SP that we'd either want back or want to keep, and CCP isn't really one for giving back SP to apply elsewhere.

Thirdly, what's the point? The learning skills don't take a month. Oddly if you calculate out the double-sp gain that you get, it is just enough to get all the learning skills in about a week or so, perhaps two. (You will have one learning skill that the advanced level will only get to 2 before you run out. Make it Charisma and leave it there).

My alt is already close to done with them (just a couple more of the advanced ones to go!) and has only existed for 6 days.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the double-sp bonus you get for new characters is enough to finish out the learning skills plus a few needed skills to use the hardware you get through the tutorial.

[Goshien]

Regardless of whether the workarounds are easy or not, you shouldn't have to work around it. Learning skills are a bad idea, simple as that. You make a person spend time training them if they have any intentions of staying longer then a few months. It's not good for new players, alts, or in any way beneficial to those who have been playing forever anyway.

Remove them all, throw in some attribute points and give everyone a neural remap.

[Lillith Blackheart]

Learning skills are a bad idea, simple as that. You make a person spend time training them if they have any intentions of staying longer then a few months.

I don't really agree with that, honestly. Perhaps the lower tier, sure. The higher tier? More than 1 or 2 points takes a long time to pay back.

To give an idea, getting rank 4 in the second tier of willpower skills (the most common of combat skills) takes years to pay off. If you bother with 5 in any of them it takes decades to pay off.

If you don't intend to play for 5-10 years, or don't think you will, not bothering with the learning skills doesn't really impact you as much as one would think. The SP spent training the skill doesn't pay off back to you in skill points gained.

Learning skills (at least in the higher tier) are extreme long term thinking.

If you're not going to spend that kind of time playing, it's not really worth the time spent. There was a thread years ago where someone did all the math and explained exactly how long training the skills to various levels would take to pay off. The payoffs aren't really as good as people believe. They're not "necessary" to train, and in most cases they hinder you more than they help you.

And therein is the magic of them.

[Wanoah]

I don't actually see any sort of valid point to learning, at all...new players are recommended by folk to train these immediately, and have to spend a month training useless stuff that won't increase their immersion into the game etc.

I always thought that people suggesting this were being disingenuous. Back when I used to play Eve and actually could tolerate the forums, I would try and stomp on this suggestion wherever I saw it. It's fine to spend a month training learning skills for a second character, but absolutely not for your first and only character. No point in having all learning skills at 5 if you just quit the game, right?

What the learning skills give you is a choice. You don't have to train them. You certainly don't have to max them all out. They offer you an opportunity to weigh up the benefits and make your own decision on whether they are worthwhile or not. Do you trade long-term gains for short-term advantage? Do you balance fun and opportunity with the medium and long-term advantages? Or do you bide your time and play the long game, knowing that in the future you will be able to exceed your peers in terms of skills?

[Nakatre Read]

Bob seems happy that he won in your sig.

/end hijack

[Vieve]

I don't think it's a coincidence that the double-sp bonus you get for new characters is enough to finish out the learning skills plus a few needed skills to use the hardware you get through the tutorial.

I've trained learning skills for my alts:  though I didn't (with the exception of Celeste, because she predates that double-bonus) until they'd blown through the double-sp bonus while training basic skills to at least three and a few specialized skills to at least IV.

[Esna Pitoojee]

If nothing else whatsoever, learning skill teach a good lesson about patience to all those rookies.

[Seriphyn]

I mean, again, what's posted here are compromises and workarounds. Sure they all work, but why are they needed in the first place

[Wanoah]

I mean, again, what's posted here are compromises and workarounds. Sure they all work, but why are they needed in the first place

See my earlier post. To force people to make choices about how they play their character. It adds a teeny bit of strategy to it. One of the things that makes Eve interesting imo.

[Casiella]

This particular debate has raged for years, and CCP has heard all sides. Wake me up when they make a decision or somebody (on either side) has a new point.

[Lillith Blackheart]

I mean, again, what's posted here are compromises and workarounds. Sure they all work, but why are they needed in the first place

I don't believe I offered a compromise or workaround. I explained why peoples' perception of learning skills is flawed and that is where the source of the problem is. I'm pretty sure Wanoah echoed that.

Learning skills aren't "necessary". They're not even beneficial past a certain degree, unless you intend to have an account spanning five years or more.

In fact, if you have two accounts that started on the same day and one started with the learning skills and the other just got the skills they needed, in six months, a year, two years, even three to four years, the one that didn't get the learning skills has an advantage.

This isn't a compromise. This is entirely one's decision as to whether they want to operate their account on the short-to-moderate term or the extreme long term.

This particular debate has raged for years, and CCP has heard all sides. Wake me up when they make a decision or somebody (on either side) has a new point.

Pretty sure CCP made their decision, since the learning skills are still there.

[Casiella]

You're completely right, I should have said "changes their decision".

[Silver Night]

Six and a half (or so) years ago, they told me it was madness to have my learning skill category maxed out.


 Who's laughing now, chumps?