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[Avio Yaken]

Is this thread dead?
If not can i ask if Parody threads would be allowed?

And im sure someone has already asked  and i just missed it when reading  or that was already stated by the Op  and i missed that when reading also

But still

[Morwen Lagann]

I'm going to sit down and try and condense the rules down a bit (and flesh out what we keep) over the weekend so we can have another go at things. If people still have thoughts or w/e on what's up there, please post (soon) so I can take it into account.

[Morwen Lagann]

UPDATE!

Here is the condensed version of the rules we are certainly going to be keeping:

• 1. This is an in-character forum for players of EVE Online, Dust 514 and the upcoming EVE: Valkyrie.
  Please keep chatter and posting that is out-of-character or unrelated to the EVE Online universe to an absolute minimum. Preferably, such posting should be done on Backstage or via private messages when at all possible.
• 2. This is a forum where the characters are posting, not the players.
  As an IC forum people will be posting here not as themselves but as their characters. Give other posters the benefit of the doubt that if they aren't being very nice to you IC it might be because their character doesn't like your character - don't just assume that it is because the player doesn't like you. Please feel free to reach out and try to clear up any possible misunderstandings, rather than jumping to negative conclusions.
• 3. Wheaton's Law.
  For the un-internet-initiated: don't be a dick/cunt/twat/pick-your-word. This includes but is not limited to things like deliberate thread derailment attempts, god-moding, ranting, off-topic posting, personal attacks, spamming, trolling, and other nonconstructive/shitposty behaviors.
• 4. No astroturfing.
  It's fine to have multiple characters posting in a thread if they would legitimately be participating in said thread, but please refrain from hogging the spotlight amongst you, yourself and your alts. The administrators reserve the right to use their discretion to determine when and where enforcement of this rule will be applied.
• 5. Posting advertisements is prohibited outside of the appropriate subforums.
  Advertising for your character(s) corporation(s), services rendered by your character or their corp, etc. are all acceptable when posted in the correct subforums (TBD). OOC advertising is not permitted; use Backstage instead.
• 6. Impersonation of another player or character is prohibited.
  The expectation is that there will likely be zero tolerance for this sort of behavior, and users can expect that characters and/or players trying to impersonate character(s) belonging to other players will have action taken against their account(s) up to and including the loss of posting privileges for an indefinite/permanent period of time.
• 7. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked. Re-opening locked threads is also prohibited.
  Unless a member of the staff informs you otherwise, if we lock a thread it is intended to remain locked. If we are OK with a thread being reposted, we will say so when we lock the thread.
• 8. Posting regarding RMT (Real Money Trading) is prohibited.
  If we catch you trying to sell ISK, don't be surprised if we forward your IP address(es) and any relevant details to CCP and giggle madly through the whole process.
• 9. Posts that distort the forum layout are prohibited.
  Excessive pyramid quoting, overly large images, etc. Offending posts will be edited and/or removed by moderation staff at our discretion.
• 10. Public discussion of forum moderation, including warnings and bans, is prohibited outside of specifically designated areas, if provided by the forum staff.
  As with Backstage, PMing a member of the staff is your best recourse if you have a question. It is undecided if we will have a similar "Moderation Discussion" subforum on the new boards.
• 11. Abuse of the forum staff and volunteers and their time is prohibited.
  The admin and moderation teams are providing this service to you for free. Please respect us and our time. Examples of such behavior include (but are not limited to) evasions of bans or sanctions placed upon your account(s) and rules-lawyering. Offenders will have action taken against their account(s) up to and including the loss of posting privileges for an indefinite/permanent period of time.
• 34. Posting of inappropriate or illegal content is prohibited.
  Please refrain from posting material that is pornographic, obscene, illegal, etc.

Some rules are still left over from the original list, and need further discussion (original numbering included). Please help us narrow down where the lines should be (if any) with some of these:

• 9. Posting of private/personal communication and/or information is prohibited.
  Self-explanatory as a concept. Doxxing is not okay, even IC. We have locator agents for that shit ingame.
• 10. Posting of private CCP communication is prohibited.
  Self-explanatory as a concept, though the odds of this happening are low. Should it be permissible to post mails from event actors?
• 32. Rumor mongering is prohibited.
  Where the line will be needs to be discussed.
  -"I think rumors are great, but we would probably have to draw a line somewhere, and somewhere fairly clear. I know there are certain members of the forum for whom rumors are a favorite weapon."
  -"We could even have sort of a version of the gossip thread so people can spread rumors about themselves."
  -"If we prohibit private conversations being posted, we should prohibit people from spreading rumors that can only be disproven by private conversations."
• 35. Posting of chat logs outside the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
  This is done on EVE-O to avoid a lot of drama and "those are faked!" arguments. A valid stance to take in general but there are cases where it could/should be permissible, such as for recording-for-posterity of live events and things like SeyCon. Private conversations and evemails are a no-no. We will need to come up with a clearer definition of what is and what is not acceptable, but the above are a starting example.
  -"If we prohibit private conversations being posted, we should prohibit people from spreading rumors that can only be disproven by private conversations."
  -"We should honestly keep chat logs out, and leave it on a 'if you want it, please send me a request' basis. It keeps threads neat, and stops people from cherry picking in the thread and possibly derailing."
  -"Chat logs of public events are fine, and I think we should probably avoid ones of private conversations."
  -"I think we would also want to make clear what is a public event (ex: a conference, a speech, etc) and what is a private event that happens to be in a public channel (ex: overheard conversations in places like bars)."
  -"We could keep it loose on rumors and have the same type of rules we have on Backstage for discussing warnings and bans: If you bring it up, it's fair game."
• 29. Please use the correct language when posting on the forums.
  Not necessary, really.
  -"It may be worth suggesting that if you don't post in English the moderation team reserves the right to run it through Google translate and replace it with the results, for better or for worse. Maybe we should add this rule to Backstage even if it isn't used for the IC one."
• 36. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
  Generally serves to do little but cause drama. Possibly worth including references or details regarding killmails in rules 32 and/or 35.
• PROPOSED: This forum is for capsuleers only.
  AKA, "no baseliner alts". Up in the air; the moderation team had no real consensus on the issue, but the "it's a privilege, don't abuse it or we will enact a rule banning it" stance was popular with several of us.
  -"I think they should be permitted to begin with and only prohibited if it becomes a problem that can't be sorted by disciplining individual problem users."
  -"On baseliner posting, I see the danger, but at the same time I'm not sure I'm behind a 100% ban. Still, if it is popular I'm not too attached either."
  -"I don't think that the majority of people use the baseliner characters with ill intent."
  -"No baseliner posting, I think. It'll invite too many 'woe be it to you mortals' god-hood posts."
  -"The primary problem that I have with both baseliners and inactive mains is you can't shoot them in space. Anyone who can be an asshole with absolute impunity is, to me, a toxic element."

[Silver Night]

The rules that are 'in' looks pretty good.

For rule 1, if someone needs to post something OOC (like if they are doing an IC event or something and need to have a brief explaination of some part of it that is OOC) maybe require it is in spoilers. A touch of OOC here and there can help IC arguments not spill into OOC bad feelings as well.

Rule 6: Maybe make clear that it would involve a loss of posting privileges for the *player*, across all accounts they might have.

For the rules that needed more discussion:

9) This seems pretty clear. Though I guess we need to figure out if it will be permitted in cases where all parties okay it?

32) I think maybe this would work as an addendum to #3 rather than a rule in itself. Ban being a troll, rather than specifically rumor mongering. That should allow the interesting useful kind while allowing us leeway to nuke the uninteresting shitty kind.

35) We could make this as simple as 'public events are okay' and then we can just mod people who abuse it. Since we already have a handy rule against rules lawyering.

No Baseliners: I'm still against this as an outright ban. I'm probably just in the 'it's a privilege' camp.

[Jekaterine]

I'll echo what Silver said.

[purple]

The IGS was at its best when the only time the moderators got involved was to remove post that broke immersion.   Becoming heavy handed on the IGS was a contributing factor to the stagnation of the RP community.     

An even bigger contributor is the self inflicted moderation policy of 'the summit'.    You guys built a box inside the sandbox and then threw out all the sand from it.

Do you think its realistic for an Amarr slaver and a Minmatar terrorist to visit a medium were they must be in no way offensive to the people they are dedicated to eradicating?  Would Genghis Khan or Vlad the impaler have used the summit?   Would Sith and Jedi bother with conversations that mostly about  spats between spouses, birth day parties for toddlers, shopping trips or favorite ways of making a sandwhich?

Offenses drive conflict and conflict drive RP.   For you folks who were around in the old days - think about how it used to be compared to now.    It's like the drive's just gone right?   Like whatever special ingredient that made eve RP different than, say WoW RP is gone?


- from my phone

[Anyanka Funk]

^That.

[Lyn Farel]

The IGS was at its best when the only time the moderators got involved was to remove post that broke immersion.   Becoming heavy handed on the IGS was a contributing factor to the stagnation of the RP community.     

An even bigger contributor is the self inflicted moderation policy of 'the summit'.    You guys built a box inside the sandbox and then threw out all the sand from it.

Do you think its realistic for an Amarr slaver and a Minmatar terrorist to visit a medium were they must be in no way offensive to the people they are dedicated to eradicating?  Would Genghis Khan or Vlad the impaler have used the summit?   Would Sith and Jedi bother with conversations that mostly about  spats between spouses, birth day parties for toddlers, shopping trips or favorite ways of making a sandwhich?

Offenses drive conflict and conflict drive RP.   For you folks who were around in the old days - think about how it used to be compared to now.    It's like the drive's just gone right?   Like whatever special ingredient that made eve RP different than, say WoW RP is gone?


- from my phone

I disagree with that liberal drivel 

More seriously though, on the Summit it's either cantina/baby RP as you say, or just outright mudslinging contests (booo slaver, booo subhuman!) if you don't apply any moderation... I don't think it's the lack or the presence of moderation that is responsible for the quality we get, it's just the players (as misanthropic as it may sound...).

I don't think players are actually comparable to Genghis Khan and Vlad the Impaler. Those could have been able to at least keep a bit of dignity when talking to each other. Or well, if not, then Putin and Western Leaders in international summits, if you will.

Nah, a lot of players are just more comparable to Kevin1858 and xxXThugzor98Xxx.

[Silver Night]

The IGS was at its best when the only time the moderators got involved was to remove post that broke immersion.   Becoming heavy handed on the IGS was a contributing factor to the stagnation of the RP community.     

An even bigger contributor is the self inflicted moderation policy of 'the summit'.    You guys built a box inside the sandbox and then threw out all the sand from it.

Do you think its realistic for an Amarr slaver and a Minmatar terrorist to visit a medium were they must be in no way offensive to the people they are dedicated to eradicating?  Would Genghis Khan or Vlad the impaler have used the summit?   Would Sith and Jedi bother with conversations that mostly about  spats between spouses, birth day parties for toddlers, shopping trips or favorite ways of making a sandwhich?

Offenses drive conflict and conflict drive RP.   For you folks who were around in the old days - think about how it used to be compared to now.    It's like the drive's just gone right?   Like whatever special ingredient that made eve RP different than, say WoW RP is gone?


- from my phone

Rule 3 is intended more for things that would make it so threads aren't useful. It isn't intended to prevent what you might call vigorous debate. Of course, this is going ot be a new thing, so we will have to find where the exact balance lies, but I think the general consensus is that mods would step in mostly if a thread actually just becomes non-functional due to people shitposting.

[purple]

The IGS was at its best when the only time the moderators got involved was to remove post that broke immersion.   Becoming heavy handed on the IGS was a contributing factor to the stagnation of the RP community.     

An even bigger contributor is the self inflicted moderation policy of 'the summit'.    You guys built a box inside the sandbox and then threw out all the sand from it.

Do you think its realistic for an Amarr slaver and a Minmatar terrorist to visit a medium were they must be in no way offensive to the people they are dedicated to eradicating?  Would Genghis Khan or Vlad the impaler have used the summit?   Would Sith and Jedi bother with conversations that mostly about  spats between spouses, birth day parties for toddlers, shopping trips or favorite ways of making a sandwhich?

Offenses drive conflict and conflict drive RP.   For you folks who were around in the old days - think about how it used to be compared to now.    It's like the drive's just gone right?   Like whatever special ingredient that made eve RP different than, say WoW RP is gone?


- from my phone

I disagree with that liberal drivel 

We should chat politics in private some time

[Morwen Lagann]

purple: I'm going to make the guess that you haven't read the thread where people expressed interest in having a separate-from-IGS IC forum, because the stuff that you're saying is good, is exactly why many of those people are saying "fuck the IGS" right now.

[Havohej]

Kevin1858 and xxXThugzor98Xxx.

[purple]

purple: I'm going to make the guess that you haven't read the thread where people expressed interest in having a separate-from-IGS IC forum, because the stuff that you're saying is good, is exactly why many of those people are saying "fuck the IGS" right now.

Nope, but I read your comments above and surmised as much.   My point is that rules outside of Stay IC and maybe keep it safe for work or no worse than rate R aren't going to achieve that goal.   
 
Look at the the ingame channel 'the summit' and ask yourself are ALL those people really that vapid and inane or is it because the mod team Judge Dreads anything that doesn't conform.

[Silver Night]

purple: I'm going to make the guess that you haven't read the thread where people expressed interest in having a separate-from-IGS IC forum, because the stuff that you're saying is good, is exactly why many of those people are saying "fuck the IGS" right now.

Nope, but I read your comments above and surmised as much.   My point is that rules outside of Stay IC and maybe keep it safe for work or no worse than rate R aren't going to achieve that goal.   
 
Look at the the ingame channel 'the summit' and ask yourself are ALL those people really that vapid and inane or is it because the mod team Judge Dreads anything that doesn't conform.

I've participated in the Summit for many years, including when there was essentially no moderation whatsoever. The majority of it was still often not entirely filled with substance, and the reason has more to do with it being a populated, public channel. People don't do that much interesting RP in that type of setting generally. Largely because in such a public setting perfectly normal or interesting conversations have a way of frequently becoming shouting matches without anything new in them from opposing sides who are unrelated to the original conversation.

I think that Backstage itself (regretably) probably has a greater problem with the level of moderation sometimes making people hesitate to post, compared to the Summit. Which is one reason we are explicitly making the rules quite a bit looser in some (most) ways in the IC section - because the rules we have here wouldn't serve their intended purpose in an IC setting.

Edit: Also, I was a Summit mod for a while, and at that time we didn't bring down the hammer very often. Mostly you had to troll pretty egregiously. As I haven't been  a mod for a few years, I can't comment on the current era, except to say I have hardly seen any mod actions taken in my time since as a participant. Certainly I would guess there is less mod intervention now than there was at the channel's inception.

[Morwen Lagann]

ask yourself are ALL those people really that vapid and inane or is it because the mod team Judge Dreads anything that doesn't conform.

It's neither. If anything, it is the general userbase of the channel - those "vapid and inane" people - that "Judge Dredds" anything that doesn't conform.

It's a bit hard to have meaningful or new inter-faction discussion and debate when there's an incredible tendency from a rather large population of characters to derail any attempts at it with the same old tried-and-boring-as-fuck broken records. Someone asks a question about religion? Pretty much instantly turns into a "fuck the Amarr" shouting match. Sansha or Blooders show up? Ho boy. And don't forget, sticks and stones can break your bones, but they're also a great way to dismiss any uppity Minmatar trying to look even remotely civilized.

End result? "Vapid and inane" is about all that's left that doesn't instantly result in the community shitcanning your discussion most of the time. The moderators have very little to do with it.

It goes back to my point in the previous post, however. A lot of the people posting in support of or requesting an external IC forum cite the lack of moderation on CCP's part - even as required by their own rules - as a reason for why they are finding the IGS unpleasant or outright unusable. I'm not really seeing anyone, besides yourself, suggest the exact opposite. So you're going to have to either wait for my bulk shipment of salt to arrive, or do a much better job of making your argument, before I and a lot of other people are going to be inclined to accept it at face value.

This is all besides the fact that the ingame channels aren't really relevant to the issue, or the thread.