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[Silas Vitalia]

There's always going to be different sorts of players with different personal scales for how they want to play and see things in their little worlds.

The game engine and game mechanics unfortunately are the unifying factor here, and haven't been designed with a fidelity and depth to match the fidelity and depth of players' imaginations. 

And I get it, frankly it's 100% more fun and less burdensome to say fuck it and fly with people you've come to really get along with OOC, or with the militia you like, or with the null block you like, etc.  At a certain point trying to maintain IC purity just gets to be a chore.

I just wish the game itself did a better job of making those decisions work WITH the lore and the IP of the game, instead of mocking it.

S. becoming an ebil piwate had much, much more to do with liking the OOC gameplay of shooting everyone, and NBSI, and the people OOC in fleets and corps as opposed to the pain in the ass of IC diplomacy and dealing with standings and associate horseshit.    It was like a weight being lifted after being a loyalist for years being able to say 'fuck all that noise, I fly with who i want and shoot who i want now, damn the Amarr Faction straightjacket"   

I'm not pissing on PYRE or the Sansha people here believe me.

[Gaven Lok ri]

Pirates in the militia is mostly due to how lowsec works, not FW. It is a tactical necessity to shoot first.

Nah, its FW. From day one we had open blood raiders and self-identified generic pirates in the Amarr Militia. This isn't something that happened in the pre-militia FW test runs, there the blood raider players stayed separate and maintained their own agenda (i.e. shot both sides).

PIE and 1PG got in a bit of a fight over it with PIE choosing to accept that we couldn't police the militia and 1PG refusing to fly with the riff raff.

I meant pirates in general, not just RP groups.

Are you defining pirate by CONCORD sec status? Then I would agree, the mechanics cause people who would otherwise have positive sec status to go negative.

But people who identify as pirates themselves (and most of these wouldn't call themselves RPers) have been active in FW from the beginning.  Though there are fewer of them in FW now that you get locked out of stations when you lose a system.

[Jennifer Starfall]

I don't actually think we are really disagreeing at all. I am mostly arguing that the judging should be done IC.

Fair enough. Point in fact, I've found the IC questioning of Jenn's participation in Amarr FW to be quite enjoyable. To be honest, Jenn should never have joined for various IC reason; however, if need be, I can provide an IC justification.

The only time that I think it becomes a problem OOC is when someone who is playing a character that is ignoring these sorts tries to OOCly argue that their character isn't doing the actions that the character clearly is doing in game. ICly, the character can have all the cognitive dissonance that the player wants it to and I have no problem with them OOC. Gaven the character will think they are full of shit, but then Gaven has quite a few blind spots, himself.

Yeah, I think we're agreeing on this.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Anyhow:
If you can't do what you want in FW, but have to do what you don't want in FW, then there is, imho, an easy solution:
Walk away from FW. It's not like PIE didn't prosper before FW. And it did so in fighting along Amarr against the enemies of Amarr. It's pretty much feasible. Ofc. I dunno what PIE's stance is in this regard and how comitted they are to FW.

Walking away from it is not a decision that is up to me. I am not PIE leadership.

I also think it's pretty hillarious to expect the one actual Amarr-loyal corporation in the militia to leave it, due to the infestation of non-loyal corps. Proves everything Miz said about it forcing off loyalists.

Well, you can always leave PIE, I assume?

Also, I'm not demanding anything: I'm just saying that if you can't live with the very real consequence that joining Amarr FW means flying with loads of Blooders, Sansha and other IC scum, then walk away. It's up to you, really.

If you think that you should stay even more, because otherwise there would be no real loyalists left in Amarr FW, then stay.

The reality is, though: You can't have both (that is staying there and not having Blooders, Sansha etc. in the 24th).

Blaming the others that there are not the consequences for them, that ought to be there if it was up to you is far removed from the 'you have to live with the consequences' that EVE puts on it's players. they are not responsible for enacting the consequences that aren't really there, but which you want to see. It's not the obligation of those that get into a factions milita, even though the faction 'wouldn't want them', to police themselves: That's the factions obligation - and by extension CCPs.

Let's not all be mean to Samira though I think she does have valid points here.  If I'm an Amarr loyalist doing my utmost to fight for the Empress and a bunch of Sansha et all are let into the militia it is pretty ridiculous IC.  It's hard not to be defeatist about the whole damn thing and the whole overall PF if it gets rubbed in your face?  From Samira's point of view the other people get to have all the fun, do whatever they want, and to her not have a good IC justification.  Why bother trying to work to maintain IC credibility when all of these other people appear to give 0 fucks about it?  I totally get it.

I get it as well, but she's blaming the wrong people here. There is no obligation in EVE to stay IC or be IC at all - at least not in a refined sense of IC that pertains to roleplaying. It's a game. If anyone is to blame that FW is really problematic in regard to immersion, then it's CCP. One should leave ones complaints where they belong.

Also, in generalk people IRL can be and oftentimes are inconsistent in their behaviour. Why not IC? Everyone is free to react ICly to that as they see fit, I haven't seen Tibs or anyone being awry with such IC reactions - why make an OOC thing (TM) out of it?

[Silas Vitalia]

Tibs knows I loves him almost as much as I love harvesting conflict tears from IC and OOC sources. 

[Anskek]

There is no obligation in EVE to stay IC or be IC at all - at least not in a refined sense of IC that pertains to roleplaying. It's a game.

Wish people had that attitude about 2 years ago. Would have saved a lot of grief.

[Evi Polevhia]

Not at all! The problem here is that there hasn't been any white to offset the black; to anyone looking in, it seems like it's just the same Sansha flying under a different name.

And there in lies the problem. No one looks deeply enough to see anything but what they assume is there.

[kalaratiri]

Also, can we please stop referring to PYRE as "full of nation loyalists"? There are like... 7 of them? In a 50 man Corp. There are also Angels and Serpentis, one or two Sani Sabik and quite a few Caldari. The whole point of PYRE is that it brings together disparate groups under one banner and gives them set goals to pursue. Goals which, at least so far, have not put us in direct conflict with any Amarr militia Corp except Nauplius.
I know it's slightly off topic but it does bug me when people talk about PYRE as if the Sansha were the only people in it.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Multicultural F1 Brigade both IC and OOC

[Anskek]

That happens because they're the most seen and active in your corp kalaballarollinharda

[Silas Vitalia]

I know it's slightly off topic but it does bug me when people talk about PYRE as if the Sansha were the only people in it.

You just need a Sansha Happy Chip, remember those?   Problem solved!

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Actually the most active people in our corp are Shiva Makoto, Zanzibar, Gorp, and Desiderya.  I'm personally not even in the top 10!

[Mizhara]

Not at all! The problem here is that there hasn't been any white to offset the black; to anyone looking in, it seems like it's just the same Sansha flying under a different name.

And there in lies the problem. No one looks deeply enough to see anything but what they assume is there.

Well, it is what you get when you read the IGS or what is said in the Summit. I have to deal with the entirety of New Eden giving Miz crap over 1k-1 when she wasn't even in the corp at the time, because there's no real reason anyone should believe differently than what they've been fed, and there's not really any reason why anyone should think differently of the Sansha.

Also, can we please stop referring to PYRE as "full of nation loyalists"? There are like... 7 of them? In a 50 man Corp. There are also Angels and Serpentis, one or two Sani Sabik and quite a few Caldari. The whole point of PYRE is that it brings together disparate groups under one banner and gives them set goals to pursue. Goals which, at least so far, have not put us in direct conflict with any Amarr militia Corp except Nauplius.
I know it's slightly off topic but it does bug me when people talk about PYRE as if the Sansha were the only people in it.

Well... it is the impression one gets when the TSF members are the vocal ones on the Summit, the IGS etc. Particularly when it's "murder all capsuleers, all the time!" that gets repeated the most. What else lies in Pyre is almost never seen nor heard.

tl;dr, make them your PR department and people will look to that.

[Ember Vykos]

Not at all! The problem here is that there hasn't been any white to offset the black; to anyone looking in, it seems like it's just the same Sansha flying under a different name.

And there in lies the problem. No one looks deeply enough to see anything but what they assume is there.

That's true of a lot of things. Especially true at times with this crowd. 

 I always looked at the Blooders, Guristas, Sansha, and whoever or whatever else that came and went in FW like I would privateers. They have their letter of marque and they do work. That doesn't always mean that Blood Raider Baddie went up to Jamyl herself and was all like "What up...lemme kill Minnies for you." Chances are they did it way more subtly than that through various proxies and payoffs and whatever other cloak and dagger stuff you want to throw in there. Bottom line of it there isn't much anyone can do about it. What it is, is what it is and we as players and character have to deal with it. 

[Milo Caman]

That happens because they're the most seen and active in your corp kalaballarollinharda

dat confirmation bias