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[Lyn Farel]

Samira, your vision only works when said content creators create content that actually make sense. CCP also has the laudable but bad habit to try to explain everything kinda icly even when they know it makes no sense.

I was part of an elitist rp community in swg that got into trench warfare with the rest of the lol rpers that held the belief that everything that was game mechanism was fair play and IC. Since as you probably know, SWG was a gross insult to the lore itself and trying to keep true to what makes sense lore wise was suddenly considered crazyness and elitism.

So yes now out of experience i ask myself sometimes how some things can be explained, and somtimes they can and people will agree on it, somtimes they will fight to the death because they disagree and then call each other crazy icly. Or a lot of times it just makes no sense no matter how you put it.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

PLEX does contradict the lore, though - If I were to go run Angel cartel missions and kill CONCORD battleships for 12 hours, I would unquestionably cost them more then the cost of a PLEX in losses. So why am I not "banned" by CONCORD, who has that power? There is no possible answer that can be given that isn't either ludicrously contrived or fourth wall breaking. In my opinion, when one runs into something like that, the best possible thing to do is to ignore the cause with more obviously forced mechanics backing it up.

I also disagree with your opinion on a more general level. I think that the agency for deciding what is and what isn't part of the universe should lie solely with the players. When I played WoW, I actually literally did what you talked about there and didn't accept heroic leap ICly. Why not? Because it was ridiculous! It took serious scenes grounded roughly in reality which could have interestingly written and worked out resolutions and ruined them with awkward cartoonish superpowers that people used more often than not to godmode through guild RP events. That game suffered from very class and profession specific lore powercreep to insane levels, and if I had taken it at face value (or, indeed, been part of a group that did that) on every level I would have simply not enjoyed RP in it at all.

You could argue that this is my fault because I was roleplaying in a game where I clearly didn't like the tone of the setting or gameplay. But, honestly, things are never that simple - One can never make a judgement to roleplay in a game solely if it fits all of ones personal preferences. You have to take into account the gameplay, if your friends are playing, the quality of the community... All within a pretty darn small pool to pick from. Sometimes, the best thing to do is bend the game a little to how you like it - Even if that ends up alienating a few people who sternly disagree with your direction of bending on a personal basis.

That's why whole roleplay communities can never really get completely along, or exist in the same "world" in every sense - Even in Eve. But really, at the end of the day, that's alright, even if it's not really perfect.

All of this is of course my opinion, but I think having fun in roleplay is literally the most important part - Far more so then being bound by a bunch of game mechanics motivated rulesets designed by people who didn't give a hoot whether or not it would make for enjoyable roleplay. It's fine to follow that stuff to the letter if you enjoy it or it keeps you immersed, but expecting it to work for everyone is, in my opinion, bizzare.

[Samira Kernher]

I also disagree with your opinion on a more general level. I think that the agency for deciding what is and what isn't part of the universe should lie solely with the players. When I played WoW, I actually literally did what you talked about there and didn't accept heroic leap ICly. Why not? Because it was ridiculous! It took serious scenes grounded roughly in reality which could have interestingly written and worked out resolutions and ruined them with awkward cartoonish superpowers that people used more often than not to godmode through guild RP events. That game suffered from very class and profession specific lore powercreep to insane levels, and if I had taken it at face value (or, indeed, been part of a group that did that) on every level I would have simply not enjoyed RP in it at all.

It made sense in the universe. But apparently you didn't want to roleplay in that universe, and so you tried to discourage everyone around you from roleplaying in that universe too.

Do you do the same thing when you play FFXIV?

You could argue that this is my fault because I was roleplaying in a game where I clearly didn't like the tone of the setting or gameplay. But, honestly, things are never that simple

It looks simple to me. If you don't like the universe you're in, you either HTFU and accept the parts you don't like or you go play in a different unvierse that you do like. You don't try to force the universe into becoming something that it isn't. That's not your right, and it forces complications on basically everyone else around you.

Everything is a lot simpler when everyone RPs in the universe that is, instead of the universe that they wish it was.

All of this is of course my opinion, but I think having fun in roleplay is literally the most important part - Far more so then being bound by a bunch of game mechanics motivated rulesets designed by people who didn't give a hoot whether or not it would make for enjoyable roleplay. It's fine to follow that stuff to the letter if you enjoy it or it keeps you immersed, but expecting it to work for everyone is, in my opinion, bizzare.

I think it's bizarre to expect the universe you chose to play in to be bent over to cater to your personal preferences, instead of altering your own play to fit to it.

I have been RPing for a very long time. I've been involved in many, many of those arguments in the past. It was stressful and tiring, worrying over what should and shouldn't be accepted. Coming to the standpoint of 'mechanics/canon say it exists, so it exists' was probably the best decision I ever made in regards to RP. It gave me the comfort in regarding the universe as it was instead of getting angry over aspects of it I did not personally like, and it encouraged me to look into characters in a way that I had avoided before for precisely the reasons you list above and suddenly find that, by actually embracing the universe, even the parts I didn't like, I could actually have a lot more fun and be a lot more immersed in it than I thought.

It is, for me, the reason why I prefer EVE's style above most other MMOs. Everything is IC, everything I do is IC. All I have to worry about is playing my character, instead of agonizing over what I may or may not like. "I may not like it, but I accept it" is my motto and it resolves any internal dilemma I may have. I don't like Tony G.'s stuff, but it exists and is canon, so I accept it. I don't like some things in Source, but it exists and is canon so I accept it. Instead of worrying about what is and is not dumb, what does and does not make sense, I instead only have to worry about how my character will respond to its existence, good or bad. Instead of trying to change the universe, and by extension the opinion of every other player playing in that universe, all I have to worry about is changing my own characters' perceptions.

[Samira Kernher]

Samira, your vision only works when said content creators create content that actually make sense. CCP also has the laudable but bad habit to try to explain everything kinda icly even when they know it makes no sense.

I have long since stopped believing RPers know any more about what "makes sense" than the developers.

If the developers say something is canon, then it's canon, because it's their universe and they decide what does and does not make sense within it.

[Lyn Farel]

Oh definitely, counting on players to tell what makes sense and what doesnt is silly if you want to take that on a level above small groups sharing similar values. So trying to solve those issues altogether would be the best way really and i have even tried at times, but i know roleplayers and i know this community as well as i know myself and that will never happen.

But trusting ccp to tell what is canon and what is not doesnt solve the issue at all.


At some point you will always have someone asking icly and genuinely why, and the people will either come with silly answers that do not make any sense, or will just remain awkwardly silent. When i was still more or less icly supporting concord, i spent my time seeing the faction being sullied and defiled by idiotic rhetoric caused by the exact same thing and it just made me stop altogether that side of rp out of disgust.

Also, everything being simpler when everyone is playing in the same universe is rather unrealistic to me as evidencex by the fact that people are not even able to agree on it and all have their interpretations...

[Silas Vitalia]

What stops concord from shutting her down is that CONCORD never actually shuts down anything a player does, even if you're shooting CONCORD ships in curse, even if you are espousing pirate loyalties, even if you're helping Sansha Kuvakei uplift people from highsec planets. CONCORD is not all powerful and their ability to punish is not unlimited.

That's like saying capsuleers can't leave their captain's quarters because the game doesn't show that happening.  100% disagree with this sort of logic.

We should be able to make some general and usually agreed upon assumptions about what sorts of things are and aren't kosher with regards to capsuleers and CONCORD. 

We have to reconcile the fact that we can do things in the game that would most certainly get us killed, that we wouldn't be able to do in a more logically thought-out RP game world.   

CCP has tons of PF that doesn't line up, and we've been (badly) trying to reconcile this stuff for years.

[Silas Vitalia]

So we've got two hard line options here:

1) Handwave and ignore other RPers who do things we think are logically ridiculous (open blood raiders joining 24th crusade or gallente flying for Caldari Navy or whatevever example you want)

2) Believe everything that happens in game as IC and factual, then come to logical next step conclusion that NOTHING capsuleers do matters in the slightest since we aren't punished for fiction-breaking content.  The Empires don't care, CONCORD doesn't care, we're all just irrelevant.

If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?

I don't think 2 is the case because half the time CCP tells us how 'important' we are and the lore tells us how 'important' capsuleers are.


TLDR I will ignore and handwave the hell out of things that break IC and break game for me.

[Samira Kernher]

If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld

There is still story potential in 2. Dystopian plots are a thing. Internal conflict over the inability to change the world instead of external conflict of actually changing it.

[Silas Vitalia]

If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld

There is still story potential in 2. Dystopian plots are a thing. Internal conflict over the inability to change the world instead of external conflict of actually changing it.

That's a big ask for all RPers. 

I'd rather imagine a more logically consistent IP and ignore the 10% nonsense CCP isn't interested in clearing up.

[Mizhara]

If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld

There is still story potential in 2. Dystopian plots are a thing. Internal conflict over the inability to change the world instead of external conflict of actually changing it.

That's a big ask for all RPers. 

I'd rather imagine a more logically consistent IP and ignore the 10% nonsense CCP isn't interested in clearing up and the herpderp player stuff that doesn't fit in either.

Made an addition and thus agree 100%.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

It made sense in the universe. But apparently you didn't want to roleplay in that universe, and so you tried to discourage everyone around you from roleplaying in that universe too.

I phrased that too harshly. I didn't go around actively telling people it was dumb and try to force that view on others in a general sense, nor am I saying it was objectively. I just didn't enjoy the more over-the-top cartoonish aspects of that game, (of which there were many once power creep set in,) so I sought out and played with people that agreed with me. The fact that I was very easily able to find said people kinda suggests it wasn't an unpopular opinion devoid of merit.

If you liked those parts, I'd never tell you that was the wrong way to play - Just not want that idea pushed on me as well.

It looks simple to me. If you don't like the universe you're in, you either HTFU and accept the parts you don't like or you go play in a different unvierse that you do like. You don't try to force the universe into becoming something that it isn't. That's not your right, and it forces complications on basically everyone else around you.

I don't mean to be rude, but says who? This isn't a NWN2 server or a tabletop campaign where a small group of people are all agreeing to follow a very strict set of rules to maximize the immersion and general cooperative nature of the roleplay. This is an MMO where the developers see gameplay as king and leave a handful of roleplayers to try and cobble together a workable understanding of the universe from a few usually lazily written lore pieces and a hodgepodge of game mechanics.

You're saying all these harsh phrases "you don't do this" and, "that's not your right", but who is this cow I'm butchering that sacred to? It's certainly not CCP - At this point, we could all start roleplaying as space elves and none of them would bat an eye. Hell, half of them seem to view hardcore roleplayers as something deserving of mockery. And it can't be other roleplayers, either, since at least 75% of the ones I've seen seem even less interested in conforming to the setting then I am, and usually deviate from it in far greater ways then just refusing to accept a tiny portion of the mechanics as IC.

So really, why does it matter? This is just a game, you know? Not even a paticularly great one. It doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal in every respect.

The fact is that if I did take WoW, or, indeed, Eve, completely at face value, I would probably have enjoyed roleplaying in them a hell of a lot less - In WoW, I might not even have roleplayed conventionally at all. I didn't play that game because of the roleplay, I played it because a bunch of friends peer pressured me into it, none of whom were roleplayers. I didn't love the setting, or the to tone. But I really like roleplaying, and wanted to do it anyway since I was there, so I did. And you know, in the end, despite a bit of drama, I had fun! And to me, that's all that matters.

It's not as though I'm cramming these opinions down anyones throat or looking for a fight. I just reject the notion that mechanical purism is something everyone needs to follow. The more rules you make for yourself, the more uncomfortable a box you can be stuck in that prevents you from making the best of what you have.

I think it's bizarre to expect the universe you chose to play in to be bent over to cater to your personal preferences, instead of altering your own play to fit to it.

I have been RPing for a very long time. I've been involved in many, many of those arguments in the past. It was stressful and tiring, worrying over what should and shouldn't be accepted. Coming to the standpoint of 'mechanics/canon say it exists, so it exists' was probably the best decision I ever made in regards to RP. It gave me the comfort in regarding the universe as it was instead of getting angry over aspects of it I did not personally like, and it encouraged me to look into characters in a way that I had avoided before for precisely the reasons you list above and suddenly find that, by actually embracing the universe, even the parts I didn't like, I could actually have a lot more fun and be a lot more immersed in it than I thought.

It is, for me, the reason why I prefer EVE's style above most other MMOs. Everything is IC, everything I do is IC. All I have to worry about is playing my character, instead of agonizing over what I may or may not like. "I may not like it, but I accept it" is my motto and it resolves any internal dilemma I may have. I don't like Tony G.'s stuff, but it exists and is canon, so I accept it. I don't like some things in Source, but it exists and is canon so I accept it. Instead of worrying about what is and is not dumb, what does and does not make sense, I instead only have to worry about how my character will respond to its existence, good or bad. Instead of trying to change the universe, and by extension the opinion of every other player playing in that universe, all I have to worry about is changing my own characters' perceptions.

I've been roleplaying for a pretty darn long time as well - Coming up on 12 years, 14 if you count by ridiculous infantile neopets roleplay - And I've drawn the exact opposite conclusion. When I was younger, I used to follow the law of the setting to the letter, and get mad at people who didn't, pretty frequently. It led to stress, anxiety, tons of in game drama, and above all else, boredom. I ended up engaged in roleplay I found awkward and mismatched frequently, because the settings themselves were awkward and mismatched because the devs simply didn't care about that sort of thing.

I used to get mad about that, but you know what? That's their right. If they want to make a bunch of goofy fun stuff and not respect their own setting, (or in eves case usually profit motivated stuff), that's alright, because not everything has to be super serious or high effort. But it doesn't stop me from taking it seriously myself, imposing my own rules, and trying to find players who roughly agree with them to play with.

I understand your desire to keep everyone on the same page. On paper, it's a really cool notion, and would let everyone roleplay which eachother seamlessly with no conflict. But the reality is that expecting a game to be a "world" where all roleplayers see only and accept only one universal understanding of the setting will never happen. Every game, no matter how immersive or well thought out, and no matter how in tune the mechanics are with the lore, will have little cracks in the system or subjective elements that roleplayers will disagree on, and parts that certain people will just reject for no other reason then pettyness or "I don't like it". Eve is no exception.

And that's okay.

[Veiki]

I'd probably have to agree with most of the points raised by Gwen. Expecting others to abide by your own opinions and standards of what should and should not be will always result in frustration with RP in an MMO I think. Expecting some kind of self-enforcement with others along those lines just seems remarkably arbitrary and unrealistic to me. Coming into anything with expectations that cannot be met is always going to result in having a Bad Time to me - whether it's Eve/Lore/Fiction just as anything else.

What point is there placing some kind of onus on others to act, behave, interpret, and expect the same things you do and then say the fault is theirs when they don't? I admit, I used to put some high expectations on roleplayers once, but you know, I realized I got frustrated a lot less once I lowered my expectations and no longer cared whether they agreed with me or not. I feel once I shifted things to far more realistic expectations of others to provide only b-grade level tabloid gossip usually about which capsuleers are fucking who; petty dramas about one inane thing or another; passive-aggressive displays by those desperately seeking, "Relevance" for themselves; sympathy quests; and ignorant racial epithets, I became far less disappointed because others would usually continue to meet those expectations I had re-adjusted to.

To me I think that's lead to a far more tolerant and accepting perspective on RP for me where others can RP as they seem to enjoy and choose; and I can incorporate what they do in-character as simply being that even thousands of years in the future capsuleers are still human in that they can't help but enjoy all the usual petty snarking about each other. That's actually lead to increased immersion for me in-game.

I mean I don't have much interest in that kind of RP these days, but you know, everyone has fun in their RP and approach it their own way and that's cool. For me, it's all just a matter of different perspectives and trying to tolerate and respect that as best as possible in the end.

Also: Eve isn't Real.

[Ember Vykos]

If 2 then what's the damn point of playing?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld

There is still story potential in 2. Dystopian plots are a thing. Internal conflict over the inability to change the world instead of external conflict of actually changing it.

That's a big ask for all RPers. 

I'd rather imagine a more logically consistent IP and ignore the 10% nonsense CCP isn't interested in clearing up and the herpderp player stuff that doesn't fit in either.

Made an addition and thus agree 100%.

* Ember Vykos adds stamp of approval.

Also: Eve isn't Real.

But..but....I was there....

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Your right to RP a Vampire Lesbian Spacedragon Princess Demigod ends where my ability to take you seriously begins.

In other words, you can RP however you like but unless it's supported by objective things like CCP Lore, I reserve the right to reject your reality and substitute it with my own.

[Anyanka Funk]

Your right to RP a Vampire Lesbian Spacedragon Princess Demigod ends where my ability to take you seriously begins.

In other words, you can RP however you like but unless it's supported by objective things like CCP Lore, I reserve the right to reject your reality and substitute it with my own.

How can you take anything in Eve seriously?