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That the top-heavy, curved, vertical design of the Naglfar was copied from Minmatar totems? Read more in the description

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Author Topic: multiple cloning, backup cloning, and other clone related information  (Read 21594 times)

Silas Vitalia

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So, I'm actually doing it, I have multiple clones running around.

How do you get around the PF with this not being a thing?
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Saede Riordan

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So, I'm actually doing it, I have multiple clones running around.

How do you get around the PF with this not being a thing?

The PF is really vague about it, given the incredible state of science and technology in EVE, it doesn't seem like all that much of a stretch. Not only is Saede a multiple (what I'm calling people like this) but there's in fact numerous multiples in Origin, including other capsuleer multiples. So you could look at it as a technology that was developed wholesale in Origin and its something new and unique to us, or you could look at it as simply a different application of existing technologies used in a way they normally would not be for legal reasons.

Basically, I don't worry about it too much, Origin exists in something of a bubble with its own 'PF' if you will attached to it. It doesn't exist entirely within the bounds of EVE lore in a number of ways. It is what it is.
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Merdaneth

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So, I'm actually doing it, I have multiple clones running around.

If the thing ever comes up, Merdaneth will ask for a demonstration.

With clone cost reduced to zero, Merdaneth is up for making several thousand.
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Samira Kernher

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PF isn't vague about it, though. You can't do regular and continuous updating/streaming of clone brains. The tech is too big, and too destructive. Every time you scan it'd destroy the brains. The only tech that is able to record brain activity on an active and non-destructive basis in a form small enough to fit in the head is the sleeper implant, which is why it was such a big deal. But the sleeper implant isn't usable with capsuleer implants.

The only way the idea would work would be in a slower, burst process. You have your 8 clones, but they aren't streaming and uploading/downloading data constantly. They'd instead act individually for a set period of time, then at a scheduled time all go in, get burn scanned, and have 8 new clones made with data amalgated from all of the previous 8. So, for example, you coalesce the data every Sunday, destroying the current clones and making new ones that have been updated with all of the memories from all of the previous clones.

This isn't possible:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

But this might be:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
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Lyn Farel

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The issue with multiple clones is an interesting theme we see a bit in modern scifi is that once you have cloned yourself and let all your clones go do their thing, they will stop being you pretty almost immediately and become new individuals, that are you in identity, but not you anymore otherwise. Which would mean that killing them to update them to your current state of brain would be rather atrocious, it's plain murder, and it's disturbing.

Or, you effectively have the multiple clones ala Peter Hamilton where it's not a clone = an individual, but several clones = the same individual at the same time, as I think it is the case for Saede. As much as I find it interesting, I wonder what stops her to create an army of her controled by the same mind, and piloting a whole fleet by herself ? The game would stop her to do that ofc, but lorewise ?
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Samira Kernher

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Or, you effectively have the multiple clones ala Peter Hamilton where it's not a clone = an individual, but several clones = the same individual at the same time, as I think it is the case for Saede. As much as I find it interesting, I wonder what stops her to create an army of her controled by the same mind, and piloting a whole fleet by herself ? The game would stop her to do that ofc, but lorewise ?

The fact that it's not possible to actively stream data back and forth between minds like that. If there was, there'd never be any reason whatsoever to use burn scan. You could just constantly stream data from your clone to the medcenter.

The only tech that can actively record the brain state on a constant basis is the sleeper implant. Again, that's why it was such an amazing discovery. It records all memories and then transmits those memories to the central database if the body dies. Hell, and the sleeper implant doesn't even record. It's essentially a bio-computer in the head that completely replaces natural cerebral functioning. The actual brain of a DUSTer doesn't even exist anymore except as a super-cerebellum.
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Saede Riordan

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I think the point you're running into difficulty Sami is the idea that you have to transfer all the data for it to work. Thats not so much the case. Its more like, well the Sansha are networked together? Its like that. All the different clones of Saede in a way are separate people, but they share a mindlink in real time.
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Samira Kernher

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Aha. If it's like that, then yeah I could see it working. Multiple individual Saede clones (which is definitely canonically possible=, each connected with a Sansha-style hivemind implant? That could probably work. In that case it's less a matter of all clones updating each other constantly with every scrap of perception, but more that they're hearing each other's thoughts. That sounds reasonable to me.
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Merdaneth

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PF isn't vague about it, though. You can't do regular and continuous updating/streaming of clone brains. The tech is too big, and too destructive. Every time you scan it'd destroy the brains. The only tech that is able to record brain activity on an active and non-destructive basis in a form small enough to fit in the head is the sleeper implant, which is why it was such a big deal. But the sleeper implant isn't usable with capsuleer implants.

If you can broadcast and recieve a brain scan, you should be able to retain and copy it. And as such activate any number of clones with said brain scan. I wouldn't need continuous updates, I would only need a one-time scan. As long as your physical clone properties and a snapshot of your brain is available, you should be technically able to recreate a person at any time in large numbers.
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Samira Kernher

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PF isn't vague about it, though. You can't do regular and continuous updating/streaming of clone brains. The tech is too big, and too destructive. Every time you scan it'd destroy the brains. The only tech that is able to record brain activity on an active and non-destructive basis in a form small enough to fit in the head is the sleeper implant, which is why it was such a big deal. But the sleeper implant isn't usable with capsuleer implants.

If you can broadcast and recieve a brain scan, you should be able to retain and copy it. And as such activate any number of clones with said brain scan. I wouldn't need continuous updates, I would only need a one-time scan. As long as your physical clone properties and a snapshot of your brain is available, you should be technically able to recreate a person at any time in large numbers.

Well yes, you are able to create a large number of the same person at the same time. This wasn't what I was talking about. It is PF that making multiple clones of the same person at the same time is possible (see the news article linked in the first post of this thread), and there is nothing except CONCORD laws preventing capsuleers from doing this.

What the issue here is, the issue with what Saede is doing, is in keeping all of those clones constantly updated on each other's memories and personalities all at the same time, as some kind of super-person. Saede's just now said it's more like a mindlink than an actual 'one person with multiple bodies' thing, so her thing sounds fine to me.
« Last Edit: 18 Jan 2015, 07:44 by Samira Kernher »
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Esna Pitoojee

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Well, nothing stopping you except that running multiple clones at the same time ranks in the top 5 ways to get shut the hell down by CONCORD (somewhere in between "trying to make a rogue drone" and "trying to bombard a planet without a license").
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Merdaneth

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What the issue here is, the issue with what Saede is doing, is in keeping all of those clones constantly updated on each other's memories and personalities all at the same time, as some kind of super-person. Saede's just now said it's more like a mindlink than an actual 'one person with multiple bodies' thing, so her thing sounds fine to me.

To me that's irrelevant, since I am casting doubt on the earlier possibility. I'm not convinced Saede can make multiple clones, regardless if she can keep them in sync. All PF that doesn't make sense I liberally ignore. 'Only laws are keeping capsuleers from doing so' simply isn't convincing argument by a long shot.

I'm stating right here if Merdaneth knew how to make multiple clones, he most certainly would. All attempts to do so have failed, despite sending a cluster-wide broadcast to all cloning centers, each time only one clone is activated, the other left lifeless.
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Jennifer Starfall

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Well, nothing stopping you except that running multiple clones at the same time ranks in the top 5 ways to get shut the hell down by CONCORD (somewhere in between "trying to make a rogue drone" and "trying to bombard a planet without a license").

It's also worth noting that Saede lives in a wormhole and generally, to the best of my knoweldge, doesn't leave wormhole space ICly.
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Samira Kernher

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What the issue here is, the issue with what Saede is doing, is in keeping all of those clones constantly updated on each other's memories and personalities all at the same time, as some kind of super-person. Saede's just now said it's more like a mindlink than an actual 'one person with multiple bodies' thing, so her thing sounds fine to me.

To me that's irrelevant, since I am casting doubt on the earlier possibility. I'm not convinced Saede can make multiple clones, regardless if she can keep them in sync. All PF that doesn't make sense I liberally ignore. 'Only laws are keeping capsuleers from doing so' simply isn't convincing argument by a long shot.

Right, so there's no point arguing with you since you'll just ignore any lore you don't like. Gotcha.

Quote
I'm stating right here if Merdaneth knew how to make multiple clones, he most certainly would. All attempts to do so have failed, despite sending a cluster-wide broadcast to all cloning centers, each time only one clone is activated, the other left lifeless.

You can make multiple clones. You do it with alts.

If you're saying he can't make multiple clones, then he simply isn't doing it right, because there is literally nothing in lore that says that multiple clones of a person is impossible, and many sources that say that it is possible and that people have made them. The way the whole process works leaves it open to multiple clones. Missions in-game have you save people's brain data to be used for cloning. EVE Source talks about how a DUSTer clone that gets abandoned on a world might be assumed dead and they'd just make a new clone elsewhere, unknowingly leaving two up at the same time. That wouldn't make the current one fall over and die, at all. The news post linked above shows multiple clones being active.

If Merdaneth doesn't know how, it's because you the player, have decided that apparently he doesn't know how to save a brain scan to file and use it to replicate multiple copies. And you can very well do that, mechanically, via alts. Dev responses to questions after the release of True Stories states that, yes, alts can be considered 'other clones' of the same capsuleer if the player wants. And yes, that means if you have multiple accounts then you could have multiple Merd clones at the same time. You could literally, right now, make a Merdaneth2 clone on an alt account and very well say that it's a second clone and go flying around with both toons at the same time. Anyone who told you you couldn't do that would be wrong. As far as I know, that's what Saede does--she actually has multiple Saede toons.


You want to know what doesn't make sense? Saying that making multiple clones isn't possible when every aspect of the process dictates that it is possible and can and has happened. Now, if you're only going off of in-game systems and ergo only counting podding and jump cloning, then yeah, you only get it on a one-to-one basis. But by lore it is very much possible, and if you want to replicate that lore by mechanics then you can easily do so with alts.
« Last Edit: 18 Jan 2015, 11:16 by Samira Kernher »
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Samira Kernher

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