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[Synthia]

A chance conversation in "out of character" channel today, brought up multiple clones. The topic of multiple active clones was mentioned, as was the issue of what happens to "the soul", in such occurrences. As was the issue of "consciousness".

Here is an interesting article, from several years ago:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/hyota-vasy-sought-for-genetics-crimes-of-the-highest-order/

"This means that there are now two copies of a singular individual somewhere in EVE, a crime of the highest magnitude which goes against almost every law conceived regarding the cloning technology"

Interesting, as it shows that 1. a clone can be made while the original still lives. 2. That the clone is an independent entity.

Theologically, what happened to "the soul" in this instance ?

In a chronicle with Sourou Foiritan and Mentas Blaque, there is this line:

"A body can't let out a scream if there's no mind to carry it."
When no response was forthcoming,Foiritan laid a hand on his shoulder, leaned close and said, not unkindly, "You just shot a clone."

So, you need a "mind" or "soul" or "consciousness" to animate a clone. But where do you get those from ?

And then, how do backup clones work ? Such as the one the Jovian had in the short story "Theodicy" ?

Back up clones are also featured in texts from several ingame missions, where someone dies in one mission, and returns the next. Non-capsuleer clones, this is.

As regards multiple copies of a singular individual, there is further evidence of that sort of thing occurring, from the Blood Raider Cosmos missions, in which some of the clones get up to some really, really strange activities.

"I need someone to help me retrieve one of my clones. He's stuck near the Pagera Manton, his ship pretty much destroyed by Kalorr's gang when it accidentally ventured too close to the Pagera. We must act quickly, before Kalorr decides to make a meal out of the guy. "

Agent has a clone of themselves, to do stuff.

"the Pagera is closely guarded by Kalorr and his small army of clones"
Kalorr Makur, was cloned from a corpse (no mind or soul or consciousness available there, surely), and today leads an army of clones. Of himself. He's also mad.

"They managed to convert a few of our pod clones to their side, and together they have made an audacious get-away from the slave pens"
"And good riddance to those traitorous clones."

Some slaves, convince some clones of Blood Raider officers and ship captains, and they all rebel. Wat.


Then, there is the mass cloning technology, as used by the ancient Takmahl people, which creates hundreds or thousands of clones at a time, all with minute variations.


But there doesn't seem to be much, or anything, to support the idea of one "mind" controlling more than one body.
Everything I can see right off, appears to be more along lines of each body is independent and an individual from the moment they awaken.
So if you were to clone yourself, you'd have a twin of sorts, but they'd be independent and not under your direct control.

[Samira Kernher]

So, you need a "mind" or "soul" or "consciousness" to animate a clone. But where do you get those from ?

Flawed assumption. You are equating the use of 'mind' in the source material with soul when there is nothing to indicate this.

A clone, by lore, just has a lump of gray matter in the head that doesn't take form until after the data transfer. A "blank" clone as it were. Without receiving data, and causing a generation of the correct shape and neural pathways, the clone is just an empty body. Once it has the data, received either by direct burn scan from a podded pilot or downloaded from a pre-saved computer file, it goes through the process to generate the brain and waken the clone as described in the cloning science article.

This has nothing to do with the soul, and its existence or lack of, and instead relates to the existence of a viable brain within the body.

The soul is a matter of belief between religious characters and ergo is something that can only be discussed IC, not OOC. There is no OOC concrete fact about how the soul works in regards to cloning, lore articles explicitly state that there are many beliefs.

A clone does not 'need' a soul to operate, when considering it from a purely secular and scientific understanding of the process. All it needs is a body and a brain with an active and viable neural map.


Backup clones work by saving the neural map data on a database. This is the same thing that is done with DUSTers. The data is kept in storage and only used when necessary. The data can be updated when necessary. Burn scanners in the pod are linked by quantum entanglement directly to the new medical clone brain by default, to make the transfer instantaneous and 1-to-1, but this is not a required thing for the cloning procedure. Any kind of backup would entail just saving that data to a computer file instead of using it straight away, probably done by lying on a bed in a lab, having a burn scan done, and the doctors simply saving that data to a computer first before then using a copy of it to animate a new clone and send the person on their way. (there is also the idea of a slow, soft scan that doesn't kill the originating body, but there is no lore support for that kind of non-fatal scan)


The idea of a single mind controlling more than one body is not really feasible on a wide scale. However, as shown with DUSTers, there can be a single database which is regularly updated by transmissions from the sleeper implant in the DUST's head. This is, however, a new technology still, unique to it. It works because the sleeper tech allows memories and only memories to be recorded to the implant as they are being made, and it is ONLY these memories (rather than the entire neural map) which is sent to the DUSTer's central database to update it.

Ergo, controlling multiple bodies directly at the same time is probably not feasible (theoretically possible with DUST tech and quantum entanglement allowing a continual streaming update instead of burst updates, but this is not realized as yet). What is feasible, however, is the regular updating of a central database with information from each currently-active clone (requiring regular burn scans or soft scans to save and upload the data). As far as I understand, this is how the Broker worked: Each clone operated independently, but their individual experiences were transmitted to the central identity.

[Anyanka Funk]

Thank you for this, Synthia. 

Edit: and Sam.

[Saede Riordan]

Confirming I am a soul-less multiperson.

[Mizhara]

The technical possibility is about as close to proof that there are no souls in New Eden as we'll get. (Or that it's lost in the cloning process to begin with.)

[Samira Kernher]

The technical possibility is about as close to proof that there are no souls in New Eden as we'll get. (Or that it's lost in the cloning process to begin with.)

Sami's belief.

[Mizhara]

As I understood it, it was a fairly prevalent belief in the Amarr faith, yes?

[Samira Kernher]

Yup.

[Anskek]

Scientifically, I don't think it's possible, even by the standards of the most far reaching theoretical discussion on it. In Science Fiction terms....eh....maybe something like a transmitter or some such? But the individual controlling the clones would have to have one HELL of a powerful mind. The other possibility is an implant or brain rewrite having the individuals follow a certain set of actions or some shit. IF original does X, do X. That kind of thing. But then that isn't true control of multiple clones. TBH, that kind of technology, imo, is beyond what anyone in the cluster currently is capable of.

I'm actually reminded of a GITS 2nd GIG episode where someone ghost dubs their mind into clones, but the original is..well dead. Mind intact, but body couldn't take all the dubbing into clones.

If ghost dubing does that, imagine controlling more than one at once. Now on the flip side, controlling some kind of simplified android in the likeness of yourself....maybe, JUST maybe.

[Louella Dougans]

the existence of clone backups, makes you wonder why the burning scanner even exists, what good it even does. Since you don't 'need' to 'transfer consciousness' to a new clone, can just use whatever mumbo jumbo technobabble it is that records the backup.

Silly universe.

[Anskek]

Cause then that ain't you. It looks like you. Sounds like you. Acts like you. But it ain't you. You will not wake up as that clone.

[Samira Kernher]

the existence of clone backups, makes you wonder why the burning scanner even exists, what good it even does. Since you don't 'need' to 'transfer consciousness' to a new clone, can just use whatever mumbo jumbo technobabble it is that records the backup.

Silly universe.

Because the devs removed mentions of soft cloning.

When you make a clone backup, it's a burn scan. When you jump clone, it's a burn scan. There's no getting around killing off your current body anytime you get your brain scanned. The only difference between the two is whether the data is saved to a computer for later use or used instantly without saving.

[Samira Kernher]

Cause then that ain't you. It looks like you. Sounds like you. Acts like you. But it ain't you. You will not wake up as that clone.

This is the exact same thing with every clone. Every clone is made exactly the same way, just at different time frames. A backup has the data archived for later use, a podding clone has the data used immediately after it was taken. Both use burn scans, both make the same kind of clone.


I've been trying to tell people this both OOC and IC for years: There is no such thing as a transferal of consciousness. That is not a scientifically valid concept. Whether it is a backup or a podding, you are making a digital blueprint of the state of your mind's neural map at the exact moment of death and replicating it into a clone. If you believe that a clone is still 'you', it'll still be you regardless of if it's from being podded or if it's from a backup. If you don't believe it's still you, it won't be you whether it's from being podded or from a backup. Both podding clones and backup clones are the same type of clone, made either instantly after death or saved for later. You either accept both as 'you' or you accept neither. Neither is more 'real' than the other.

[Mizhara]

Cause then that ain't you. It looks like you. Sounds like you. Acts like you. But it ain't you. You will not wake up as that clone.

This is the exact same thing with every clone. Every clone is made exactly the same way, just at different time frames. A backup has the data archived for later use, a podding clone has the data used immediately after it was taken. Both use burn scans, both make the same kind of clone.


I've been trying to tell people this both OOC and IC for years: There is no such thing as a transferal of consciousness. That is not a scientifically valid concept. Whether it is a backup or a podding, you are making a digital blueprint of the state of your mind's neural map at the exact moment of death and replicating it into a clone. If you believe that a clone is still 'you', it'll still be you regardless of if it's from being podded or if it's from a backup. If you don't believe it's still you, it won't be you whether it's from being podded or from a backup. Both podding clones and backup clones are the same type of clone, made either instantly after death or saved for later. You either accept both as 'you' or you accept neither. Neither is more 'real' than the other.

So unbelievably fucking much this. Continuity is not a thing. The difference only lies in the "lost time".

[Anskek]

I don't remember what chronicles but there's been a few descriptions of the pod and transfer scenario as it happened. All of them described it as feeling themselves pulled across space. They experienced it. Saw it and felt it all before waking up. Scientifically possible? Hahaaaaa not in our lifetime. Science fiction plausible ? Eh. Why not?

SOMETHING SOMETHING INFOMORPH SOMETHING