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[Esna Pitoojee]

Gaven and I have discussed this before, and thought that it would probably be more common that slaves would be physically prevented from breeding "independently" and that they either would require permission from their Holders (in the case of higher class, freer slaves) or be forced to specific pairings (in the case of breeding colony slaves) in order to procreate. Population control, and all that.

Here's where I'll disagree: While forced contraception might be a thing in the toughest work environments and places where a pregnancy might actually be a reasonably health risk, in general it clashes heavily with the idea of slavery being a method to create a loyal, faithful underclass. In many cases, you would instead want to encourage them to try and behave like "civilized people" - including forming families of their own when in religiously blessed unions.

[Samira Kernher]

The unions wouldn't be religiously blessed, Ohrud Omel said that marriage is forbidden for slaves, though of course there would be civil partnerships going on in some capacity (whether completely informal and unofficial or more or less validated by the Holders. Allowing such would be necessary for slave control and we have seen family units existing among slaves in lore). It's said in Chained to the Sky that one of the things the 9th gen slaves would be needed to do on being freed is get their unions registered with the authorities.

But yes, they would be encouraged to behave like civilized people and have families, I just think that in many cases these families would be ones that the Holder or custodians would want some level of say in. It wouldn't be something that would probably entail a whole lot of restrictions, just a simple requirement of permission from your custodian/Holder/overseer which is probably given on principle. This would be especially when these families cross Holder-lines (slave owned by one Holder wanting to get together with a slave from another Holder). This kind of control of the family is something that has existed in other forms of slavery and serves as another method of making the slaves dependent on their masters--and giving their masters another permission that they can grant or withhold as a method of slave control. By having a say in even the most trivial of matters, the masters indoctrinate the slaves into a high level of dependency on them and create a scenario in which they can manipulate their slaves easily without having to always fall back on the lash.

"We want to get married! We need to get permission from X. We want to go to town! We need to get permission from X. We want to buy Y luxury good! We need to get permission from X. We want to do anything that requires independent initiative! We need permission from X." And the Holder/Custodian/Overseer says, "I will give you all of these things, as long as you are good." And so the slaves are good, because then they get these things that would be trivial parts of life anywhere else. It makes even the simplest parts of life a reward, a privilege, one that can be taken away.

Now, regarding birth control though, 'A Treacherous Spark' talks about Cali getting accidentally pregnant via a sexual encounter. So, lore-wise, a widescale birth control thing of slave populations is probably not the case. Though I do still think that the marriage equivalent would be controlled, and that the institution of birth control would be a control used by some Holders or as a punishment in some holdings.

[Mizhara]

Gotta consider the breeding too. Can't allow poor stock to breed.

[Samira Kernher]

Gotta consider the breeding too. Can't allow poor stock to breed.

Yup.

[Mitara Newelle]

* Mitara Newelle misses having a herd

[Caellach Marellus]

* Mitara Newelle misses having a herd

I misread herd, and didn't want to know where this was going.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Confirming Mitara is a zombie.

[Jace]

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with cute zombies. Dey just so uggo.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

lots of goodness

If Esna wouldn't have already given the Amash-Akura edict, I would have brought it up. Thankfully, I don't need to. It is really something to be considered, if thinking about master-slave relations in the Empire. Yes, I know that in the 'net subculture there are heaps of people who love the idea of sexual slavery and I guess it is natural that it comes up, but really...

We have little reason to think that forced sexual relations are anything but the exception in the Empire as there isn't a piece of PF that suggests that it is accepted or even tolerated, while there is a lot of PF that suggest that it is frowned upon and even opposed. Especially the Amash-Akura edict would suggest that there is scriptural law of the highest order that opposes forcing sexual relations onto slaves.

There is also more to it: While many people in the Amarr RP community tend to interprete the idea of Amarr superiority along the lines of genetics and race, and it might be true that many Amarr nowadays see it like that, given that that's the stance outlined by EVE: Source, there is also reason to think that this is a view that only came to be with the mass influx of slaves with capturing the Matari (Of which a good percentage is, by the way, not 'black', but quite pale: The Sebiestor for example are even paler than the average Amarr.).

The scraps of Scripture as well as other PF suggests that the Amarr understood 'heritage' to be rather a cultural thing than a genetic one. This goes hand in hand with the idea of orthopraxis rather than orthodoxy being the thing that is placed more importance on in the Empire. Arguably, the opposition to Udorians and especially the Tash-Murkonites lies to a great degree in them obviously not having abandoned the mercantilistic ways of the Udorians.

Also, Scripture, as far as we know it, as well as a differential analysis of Amarr culture in comparison to what is considered heretic (here mostly Sani Sabikism) shows that there is the idea that 'right makes might' rather than the other way around. While Amarr probably see that, if this implication is true, might is a good indicator of righteousness, it in no way makes the inverse true.

This is why Amarr can accept that Mad Emperors can be put down and why True Amarr that go heretic are even worse than a heathan that joins up with the Raiders. It also allsows them to maintain a concept of abuse of power, which they clearly do have.

The mighty are thus assumed to be righteous only in so far as they fulfill other requirements. Deviation from orthopraxy will quickly lead to the downfall of the high and mighty, though. This is a quite strong mechanism against deviancy.

Does this mean that there is no sexual abuse of slaves happening? Of course not. But it means that there won't be, quite probably, institutionalized forms of slave rape like 'frontline brothels'. A slaver abusing a slave boy as her 'sex toy' will be quite under pressure to not reveal her 'little secret'. The constant threat of such behaviour being revealed, it being shameful not only because of the abuse, but also because someone enganing in this - who is required to act in a way that ensures your 'ritual purity', that is not make yourself common with the unfaithful - lower themself to animal behaviour, will certailny lead to such practice being the exception.

That said, not everyone has the fantasy to rape someone they have the responsibity for. <,< And even if there is the fantasy, that doesn't mean that there is so little impulse control to succumb to it. Amarr are characterised as the ethnicity in eve with the most willpower, after all. It doesn't make sense to picture them as secretly being the most deboucherous, save from maybe our outside point of view.

If one looks for people abusing slaves, we have much more reason by PF to look at the slavery-practicing pirate factions and the Gallente Federation, indeed.

All that said: I also think it is rediculous that in some of the texts here there is the implication that the Empire's Navy is exclusively run by males. When in fact the current Empress, the biggest benefactor of the Navy, is female, was previously the head of the singlemost militaristic of the great houses of Amarr, which incidentally has the biggest influence of all houses on the Navy as well. While there is evidence that there are gender roles in the Empire, there is no evidence at all that it means they have to stay at home and can't go to the Navy. <,< But I guess that is a sepreate topic, so I said enough about that.

[Samira Kernher]

The scraps of Scripture as well as other PF suggests that the Amarr understood 'heritage' to be rather a cultural thing than a genetic one. This goes hand in hand with the idea of orthopraxis rather than orthodoxy being the thing that is placed more importance on in the Empire. Arguably, the opposition to Udorians and especially the Tash-Murkonites lies to a great degree in them obviously not having abandoned the mercantilistic ways of the Udorians.

I'd say 'in addition to' rather than, well, 'rather than'. There is enough PF, new and old, that indicates it. Genetics and not just culture is certainly something that comes up very often with Ardishapurites, at least. However, as we see with the news article about Derak Tanar, such beliefs are considered bad form in today's Amarr to the point that a person outwardly expressing it is considered scandalous by all but the most conservative groups.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/ardishapur-school-chancellor-appointee-draws-criticism-1/

This is why Amarr can accept that Mad Emperors can be put down and why True Amarr that go heretic are even worse than a heathan that joins up with the Raiders. It also allsows them to maintain a concept of abuse of power, which they clearly do have.

Except Mad Emperors can't be put down. This is a thing that is often confused. The Mad Emperor was not an emperor admitted to be mad and put down. He was covered up and his years of reign given to someone completely separate in the history books. It's been entirely whitewashed.

Does this mean that there is no sexual abuse of slaves happening? Of course not. But it means that there won't be, quite probably, institutionalized forms of slave rape like 'frontline brothels'. A slaver abusing a slave boy as her 'sex toy' will be quite under pressure to not reveal her 'little secret'. The constant threat of such behaviour being revealed, it being shameful not only because of the abuse, but also because someone enganing in this - who is required to act in a way that ensures your 'ritual purity', that is not make yourself common with the unfaithful - lower themself to animal behaviour, will certailny lead to such practice being the exception.

Agreed. The breeding colonies do represent a conflict with this, though. It's quite hypocritical to be opposed to sexual abuse of slaves by the Holder/custodians but it being a-okay to have them abused by other slaves for the sake of breeding.

That said, not everyone has the fantasy to rape someone they have the responsibity for. <,< And even if there is the fantasy, that doesn't mean that there is so little impulse control to succumb to it. Amarr are characterised as the ethnicity in eve with the most willpower, after all. It doesn't make sense to picture them as secretly being the most deboucherous, save from maybe our outside point of view.

I would say that most would be able to control the impulses and this is why I specifically included such a person in Sami's backstory. I wanted to show that type of proper True Amarr who, despite having temptations, kept it in his pants because of his faith.

However for every person who is strong-willed and able to resist, there are others who are not. And in a society where a great many things are prohibited and repressed, it makes the temptation more difficult to resist I think.

[Jace]

If one looks for people abusing slaves, we have much more reason by PF to look at the slavery-practicing pirate factions and the Gallente Federation, indeed.

I feel that I should put a footnote on this. The notion that the Angels in particular (we all know what Raiders do with their slaves) have some kind of deviant obsession or objectives with their slaves is not a PF-related thing. It is a player created thing, much like the Amarr elements you have mentioned that are due to player obsessions - not the PF.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The scraps of Scripture as well as other PF suggests that the Amarr understood 'heritage' to be rather a cultural thing than a genetic one. This goes hand in hand with the idea of orthopraxis rather than orthodoxy being the thing that is placed more importance on in the Empire. Arguably, the opposition to Udorians and especially the Tash-Murkonites lies to a great degree in them obviously not having abandoned the mercantilistic ways of the Udorians.

I'd say 'in addition to' rather than, well, 'rather than'. There is enough PF, new and old, that indicates it. Genetics and not just culture is certainly something that comes up very often with Ardishapurites, at least. However, as we see with the news article about Derak Tanar, such beliefs are considered bad form in today's Amarr to the point that a person outwardly expressing it is considered scandalous by all but the most conservative groups.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/ardishapur-school-chancellor-appointee-draws-criticism-1/

This news article about Derak Tanar is usually pulled up to present the 'racial' view as 'conservative'. Yet, nothing in the article suggests that the 'racial' view is particularly traditional or something to be 'conserved'. While his lecture was "Scriptural Evidence Supporting the Continuing Servitude of Udorians, Ealurians, Khanid, Ni-Kunni, and Minmatar." it is clear from the article that it represents an interpretation that actually goes against tradition as the article points out that it advocated a stripping of title and privilege from all citizens of the Empire who were not of pure True Amarrian ancestry, as the Udorians and Khanids which, by tradition, hold those titles for a really long time.

Tanar himself might be a conservative, but his view about the "inferiority of those of non-pure Amarrian blood" doesn't need to be a conservative view. Rather it seems to me that it is a view adopted by those that want to push back the influence of non-True Amarr. They might do so because of a generally conservative agenda (like ensuring the purity of Amarrian heritage, which certainly is a traditional and conservative position), but that also doesn't make it a particularly conservative position either.

This is why Amarr can accept that Mad Emperors can be put down and why True Amarr that go heretic are even worse than a heathan that joins up with the Raiders. It also allsows them to maintain a concept of abuse of power, which they clearly do have.

Except Mad Emperors can't be put down. This is a thing that is often confused. The Mad Emperor was not an emperor admitted to be mad and put down. He was covered up and his years of reign given to someone completely separate in the history books. It's been entirely whitewashed.

But all that doesn't mean that a 'Mad Emperor' can't be put down: it merely means that a Mad Emperor can't be Emperor. Which only underscores my point of 'right makes might'. If you are not living a righteous life in fear of God, but rather think you yourself are the God, then you can't be Emperor, which is having the power that the Emperor excercises. It's not the fact that he had been put down that necessitated him being excised from historical accords, but the fact that he was not righteous. As he was not righteous, he never was legitimately Emperor to begin with. Thus he was stricken from the records, because he was never legitimately placed in there, anyway.

So, yah, it means that technically you are right, as the man that St. Tetrimon did put down was by definition not Emperor. But that's beside the point: Amarr have concepts that allow them to distinguish between de facto 'Emperors' and de jure Emperors. That they exclude 'Emperors' that weren't de jure but only de facto 'Emperors' from historiography doesn't mean that they 'whitewash' history to not present the case of someone going awry being put down. It merely means that they accord someone that twisted and sinful one of the worst punishments they know: Giving him over to nothingness and being forgotten. It is also the treatment they deserve according their real station.

After all, in contrast to the Mad Emperor, Inire was beatified by the Council for his actions as St. Tetrimon. That wouldn't have been possible if his act of tyrannicide would be thought of as 'impossible'.

But yah, I don't even have to go as far as pointing to the Emperor not being above having to conform to the ideal of 'righteousness and fear of God'. It is also true for the Heirs, as we saw with Aritcio. Aritcio was after all clearly punished for his abuse of power.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

If one looks for people abusing slaves, we have much more reason by PF to look at the slavery-practicing pirate factions and the Gallente Federation, indeed.

I feel that I should put a footnote on this. The notion that the Angels in particular (we all know what Raiders do with their slaves) have some kind of deviant obsession or objectives with their slaves is not a PF-related thing. It is a player created thing, much like the Amarr elements you have mentioned that are due to player obsessions - not the PF.

I neither meant to nor do I see how I intimated that Angels in particular have "some kind of deviant obsession or objectives with their slaves". I agree though, that PF doesn't imply as much, as far as I can see. Yet, in distinction to the Amarr, I don't see anything in PF that suggests that there are any mechanism preventing it within the Angels.

[Elmund Egivand]

The Lottery describes life on one of those breeding colonies, by the way. Notably, the slaves onboard are raised with complete non-awareness as to what actually goes on.

One was the Baby section, where new arrivals were kept while they were acclimatizing to the facility. None of the children knew what criteria had been used to select the facility's inhabitants, nor did they remember anything of their past lives, although a few recalled the Baby section being peaceful and bright. Right next to it, nameless and uninteresting, was a section where some of the young girls were taken after being doomed to the colonies. It was whispered that marriage ceremonies took place there, the girls married off to Minmatar men and taken to new lives where they could serve Amarrian masters for five years without Vitoc before being set free. Every now and then a cargo ship would dock, stay for a day or two and then depart, which spawned rumors that the men from those ships had been boarding the facility to get married.

-The Lottery

So basically the feudal version of mail-ordered brides, minus the delivery.

[Anyanka Funk]

The Lottery describes life on one of those breeding colonies, by the way. Notably, the slaves onboard are raised with complete non-awareness as to what actually goes on.

One was the Baby section, where new arrivals were kept while they were acclimatizing to the facility. None of the children knew what criteria had been used to select the facility's inhabitants, nor did they remember anything of their past lives, although a few recalled the Baby section being peaceful and bright. Right next to it, nameless and uninteresting, was a section where some of the young girls were taken after being doomed to the colonies. It was whispered that marriage ceremonies took place there, the girls married off to Minmatar men and taken to new lives where they could serve Amarrian masters for five years without Vitoc before being set free. Every now and then a cargo ship would dock, stay for a day or two and then depart, which spawned rumors that the men from those ships had been boarding the facility to get married.

-The Lottery

So basically the feudal version of mail-ordered brides, minus the delivery.

And minus the brides. The lottery is for boys. The girls are used for breeding with other slaves.