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[Jikahr]

Here is a separate, yet related question.

I am toying with the idea of making one of my female characters into a Nun affiliated with the Sisters of EVE, who is also clandestinely running a brothel. Pictures of Nuns wearing sexy clothes, and the idea of slutty Nuns are pretty amusing to me.

Corporate titles and characters would be tongue in cheek puns and play on words. For example, the Monk in charge of making french fried foods would be the 'Chip Monk'. His obese but philosophical assistant would be the 'Deep fat fryer'.

I understand that EVE is a big enough sandbox that some people veer off in completely different roleplay directions, such as playing a Vulcan or a Jedi or whatever. However, I personally don't want to be in a position where I am in a logical conflict with the Prime Fiction.

Is it even possible to have an SOE affiliated corporation that is secretly (yet openly) a brothel, as portrayed in stories such as 'Juliette' by the Marquis de Sade?

If my character already has a billion ISK bounty, is that something that would escape the notice of the Mother Superior of the SOE?

Considering how dirty the Sisters actually are, I wouldn't put it past them at all tbh. They have their hands in a lot of very clandestine and outright illegal stuff. It's just all painted over with the legitimate and respected humanitarian front.

I think the key thing to make it work would be an ultimate, noble goal. The Sisters do dirty things, but it's usually always in pursuit of something grander. If they were to have a clandestine brothel that brothel would be about something much, much more important, rather than simply being a money-making scheme.

Hmm, that's very interesting. Perhaps rehousing orphaned drones or something? IDK.

[Elmund Egivand]

Here is a separate, yet related question.

I am toying with the idea of making one of my female characters into a Nun affiliated with the Sisters of EVE, who is also clandestinely running a brothel. Pictures of Nuns wearing sexy clothes, and the idea of slutty Nuns are pretty amusing to me.

Corporate titles and characters would be tongue in cheek puns and play on words. For example, the Monk in charge of making french fried foods would be the 'Chip Monk'. His obese but philosophical assistant would be the 'Deep fat fryer'.

I understand that EVE is a big enough sandbox that some people veer off in completely different roleplay directions, such as playing a Vulcan or a Jedi or whatever. However, I personally don't want to be in a position where I am in a logical conflict with the Prime Fiction.

Is it even possible to have an SOE affiliated corporation that is secretly (yet openly) a brothel, as portrayed in stories such as 'Juliette' by the Marquis de Sade?

If my character already has a billion ISK bounty, is that something that would escape the notice of the Mother Superior of the SOE?

Considering how dirty the Sisters actually are, I wouldn't put it past them at all tbh. They have their hands in a lot of very clandestine and outright illegal stuff. It's just all painted over with the legitimate and respected humanitarian front.

I think the key thing to make it work would be an ultimate, noble goal. The Sisters do dirty things, but it's usually always in pursuit of something grander. If they were to have a clandestine brothel that brothel would be about something much, much more important, rather than simply being a money-making scheme.

Hmm, that's very interesting. Perhaps rehousing orphaned drones or something? IDK.

And that is how you solve the rogue drone problem! Drones go rogue because of dysfunctional relationship with their users! Abandoned drones are clearly victims of such dysfunctional relationship! Rogue drones are victims! We must save the rogue drones and house them and relocate them into loving drone bays!

[Mizhara]

I occasionally make four of my flight kill the fifth. As a warning.

Also, breeding facilities. That these exist sort of kills any notion of benevolent slave holding.

[Jikahr]

However, the image of a scantily clad holographic dancer was removed from the in game Gallente (?) pleasure centres. Presumably that was something that had to be done in order to market the game towards 13-18 year olds.

Sandbox yes, 'adult' content no.

I'll just step in and address this real fast: To my knowledge, the removal of the Gallente Pleasure Hub station interior had absolutely zero to do with the quafe girl, and in fact was simply due to something in the shaders not agreeing at all with the Trinity graphics engine.

That said, several somewhat raunchier items have had their descriptions altered somewhat (for instance, the "Pillaging 101" item, which used to read "Contains detailed instructions on what to pillage and what to rape; mixups are so awkward").



Getting on to the main topic, one of the interesting things that gets overlooked a lot is that the first Amarr Emperor, Amash-Akura, outright forbid the rape of captured enemies. While it's not clear if this is directly transmitted as solid law up the current day, I think it is a safe bet that - especially in a society such as Amarr where figures such as Amash-Akura are revered religiously - the principles of such a ruling would not have been forgotten. I suspect it's likely that rape of prisoners and slaves, including coercion from a higher authority, is viewed very, very dimly in the Empire.

Amarrian slavery doesn't really have any of that - Most of the PF describes Holders as functionally being able to do whatever they want, and control every aspect of their slaves lives.

This brings me to my next point: While, by law, there may be little in the way of absolute protection  for slaves in the Empire, there is another (perhaps even stronger) force that steps in instead: Social pressure.

Amarr slavery has the additional dynamic of slavery being intended as a tool to teach and convert; none of the examples mentioned here in the thread include any similar mandate or drive to use slavery to produce a productive, loyal subject.

While many Holders view their slaves solely as a source of free labor, a Holder who never frees his slaves and mistreats them will be viewed negatively by his fellows and the religious authorities.

Neither did 1800s antebellum or Roman slavery had to contend with the possibility of recording devices, long-range communications, etc. Especially considering the way Amarr politics are often described as a cutthroat mess of commoners and Holders alike competing to find any means to climb over their opponents, using slaves for sexual pleasure would be a very risky business indeed.

That's not to say it doesn't happen, of course - I'm quite sure it does. However, I disagree with the presumption that it is something every slave will experience and every slaveholder or overseer will engage in.

Thus, slave brothels would be well hidden indeed. Perhaps something only the Blood Raiders would be involved in?

Also, the only people legally allowed to own slaves...would already own them. No need to buy the milk when you have the whole cow. Ariticio and Karsoth would have certainly used slaves for sexual purposes, although they are prime examples of villains who had to be cast down. 

In the example of Jesus Christ blessing the Roman soldier and his slave boy, we learn that it was common practice for Roman soldiers (possibly Officers) to bring a personal slave with them into the field. The Biblical example makes it clear that the Roman cares very deeply for his slave. I imagine this might be the case in the Amarrian Navy as well.

In the modern day United States, a military Officer can be assigned as a 'batman' to a higher ranking Officer, not as a slave but to act as a personal servant. 'Orderly' or 'squire' are also terms that would apply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28military%29

I can certainly see this happening in the Amarrian Navy. An Officer (Holder) would take his favorite slave with him into the field, who would act as scout, bodyguard, etc. Such a slave would be a loyal friend and devoted servant to the Amarrian, such as a 'Man Friday'. Sexual relations between Master and slave would certainly be possible, and arguably even 'voluntary', since compliance and seduction would certainly be a fast track to becoming Master's favorite.

I am wondering now if a male Amarrian Officer choosing to bring a female servant with him on duty would be frowned upon. Sexual activity between the two of them would certainly be implied. However, does that mean that a male Officer with a male slave would be above suspicion?

[Samira Kernher]

I occasionally make four of my flight kill the fifth. As a warning.

Lol.

Also, breeding facilities. That these exist sort of kills any notion of benevolent slave holding.

It certainly kills any notion of the owner of said facility being benevolent, and is a very negative taint on the entire institution for sure. Though of course not every Holder supports them. I'd say probably very few do, but there's little drive within the society to change it because slaves aren't really seen as that important and it's a rather unsavory thing to talk about (as mentioned previously about public decency). So the status quo gets maintained.

[kalaratiri]

Y'all motherfuckers need space William Wilberforce.

[Jikahr]

I occasionally make four of my flight kill the fifth. As a warning.

Also, breeding facilities. That these exist sort of kills any notion of benevolent slave holding.

Breeding facilities =/= Slave brothels though.

In an earlier post, I referred to pregnancy as being one of the 'practical' problems of having sex with slaves.

Samira pointed out that new, paler looking half-Amarrian (or Khanid) children would still be considered as slaves. I would contend that it would still cause societal problems, martial problems, and so on. Wouldn't the wife start noticing that the slaves were looking more and more like her husband?

In the Antediluvian system, there were slave brothels staffed by what were called 'fancy girls'. These were slaves of mixed blood, such as 'quatroons' (1/4 black), 'octoons' (1/8th black) and so on. While the owner was no doubt impregnating the slaves himself, and pimping off his own children, would this be the same thing as a slave breeding facility?

In the EVE universe, it is scientifically possible to artificially inseminate restrained female slaves to give birth to children without the need for sex. If one takes race and eugenics into consideration, as the Amarrians would have during the Human Endurance Program, this would be similar to the artificial insemination of a mare horse from a prize winning stallion.

Also, it would be possible and perhaps even preferable to give a female slave some kind of birth control.

[Samira Kernher]

I occasionally make four of my flight kill the fifth. As a warning.

Also, breeding facilities. That these exist sort of kills any notion of benevolent slave holding.

Breeding facilities =/= Slave brothels though.

In an earlier post, I referred to pregnancy as being one of the 'practical' problems of having sex with slaves.

Samira pointed out that new, paler looking half-Amarrian (or Khanid) children would still be considered as slaves. I would contend that it would still cause societal problems, martial problems, and so on. Wouldn't the wife start noticing that the slaves were looking more and more like her husband?

Please don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about skin color. The word I used was heritage. Lineage. It's in the genetics. The Book of Records. This is something that goes much further than a single generation's affairs. No one wants to have 'slave' on the family tree, Matari or otherwise. Consider the Black family tree in Harry Potter, where they'd scorch out the people who they thought had brought shame to the family. Having a slave or other lesser heritage in the lineage would bring shame to the family. In some cases this is racial (True Amarr are superior, Khanid are close, everything else less so), but also social class. Lesser holders are inferior, commoners are inferior, slaves are especially inferior. You don't want any of those on the tree, noted down for eternity in the Book of Records. Marrying 'down', breeding 'down' would be a negative mark for the family.

It's a feudal society, and so lineage is superior to all other considerations.

But anyway, I would expect it would cause some problems if not covered up, yes. As said before, Amarr society probably has a lot of this kind of deviancy going on, but they take pains to sweep it under the rug. But the problems would be equal whether it's a Minmatar commoner or a True Amarr slave. Both would cause problems.

Also, it would be possible and perhaps even preferable to give a female slave some kind of birth control.

Gaven and I have discussed this before, and thought that it would probably be more common that slaves would be physically prevented from breeding "independently" and that they either would require permission from their Holders (in the case of higher class, freer slaves) or be forced to specific pairings (in the case of breeding colony slaves) in order to procreate. Population control, and all that.

This goes a bit in the face of lore that says that Amarr is having a slave 'shortage', but when Amarr has a much higher slave-to-free ratio than basically any RL slave holding society even after the 9th gen emancipation, that's something we don't really buy into.

[Jikahr]

I apologize for misquoting you. Heritage is what I meant. I was thinking specifically about the conditions during Antediluvian slavery and why (according to some) it was doomed to fail.

I'm not sure what the population of free vs. slave is in the Amarrian empire. I have heard that it was as high as 50% of the population were slaves. Even with drones, surveillance, etc. this seems like a lot to me. During Antediluvian slavery, it was about 30%.

This would lead me to believe that Amarrian society would by necessity be a 'Spartan' society. In other words, Amarr is a militarized and apartheid Police state under constant threat of slave revolt. Many Amarrians would be well trained in the use of weapons, surveillance, and security systems.

Rights and privileges for slaves would mitigate this situation somewhat, but not entirely. Brutality would have to be publicly demonstrated as a deterrent, but too much brutality could spark a slave revolt.

If the Empire was dependent on slave labor, a slave revolt would grind things to a halt in the same way a general strike would. There would also be rioting and rebellious slaves to contend with as well.

I am wondering why slave revolts, or 'servile wars', are not more common in the Empire. At least, there is no mention of them in the PF (beyond the Jovian incident). Are the revolts quickly detected and snuffed out with satellites, drones, thermal detecting sensors, surveillance cameras and other oppressive technologies? Are they so commonplace that they become just another incident, like murders or muggings?

[Samira Kernher]

I'm not sure what the population of free vs. slave is in the Amarrian empire. I have heard that it was as high as 50% of the population were slaves. Even with drones, surveillance, etc. this seems like a lot to me. During Antediluvian slavery, it was about 30%.

The ratio in the Empire is 49% slaves according to CCP Falcon, which amounts to approximately 21 trillion slaves (half of that being Minmatar).

This would lead me to believe that Amarrian society would by necessity be a 'Spartan' society. In other words, Amarr is a militarized and apartheid Police state under constant threat of slave revolt. Many Amarrians would be well trained in the use of weapons, surveillance, and security systems.

Yes but in a stratified sense. There is a high level of weapon control in the Empire. The ones who would have the weapons would be the Holder armies and kameira units (who would probably be used in a similar capacity as RL slave armies like Mamluks and Jannissaries, offering an army unbound by ties of family and heritage).

Rights and privileges for slaves would mitigate this situation somewhat, but not entirely. Brutality would have to be publicly demonstrated as a deterrent, but too much brutality could spark a slave revolt.

As seen with Arzad, an attempt at deterrent through public demonstration of consequence which only served to spark the Great Rebellion many years later.

If the Empire was dependent on slave labor, a slave revolt would grind things to a halt in the same way a general strike would. There would also be rioting and rebellious slaves to contend with as well.

Ergo why the Great Rebellion was so successful. The core worlds had greater infrastructure and security and so could withstand this, but the colony worlds around the former Minmatar Empire were basically at the mercy of the rioting slaves.

I am wondering why slave revolts, or 'servile wars', are not more common in the Empire. At least, there is no mention of them in the PF (beyond the Jovian incident). Are the revolts quickly detected and snuffed out with satellites, drones, thermal detecting sensors, surveillance cameras and other oppressive technologies? Are they so commonplace that they become just another incident, like murders or muggings?

There are several mentioned. There is also the inverse in Amarrian riots against slave populations (seen after the Blood Raiders released insorum over a planet and triggered a slave rebellion on that planet).

I think in general though that the society is mostly free enough to allow slaves to feel like they are members of society, which is what puts down most potential rebellions. Slave life in Amarr is certainly not anywhere near as limiting as any form of RL slavery in many ways. The lack of access of weapons for commoners and slaves and the powerful, modern weapons of the Holder forces also serves to make any kind of rebellion a lot less likely to succeed in comparison to ones we've had in the past. The technology difference between the rioters and the authorities would be immense.



I'd like to quote Source's description of slave life as I think it's relevant for this discussion. Chained to the Sky is also a very good source.

[spoiler]They were worked to the bone but not mistreated, not severely. No beatings to speak of if you kept your mouth shut and your mind on the mine, no capital punishment unless you really overstepped the line, and nobody dying by the wayside like an animal. The mine owners were tasked with a certain level of output, to ensure the continued prosperity of the Amarr Empire, and they had neither the inclination nor the profit margins to abuse, starve, or permanently damage their workers.

The caverns deprived them of the feel, smell, sights, and sounds of daily planetside life, but the air was at least kept clean down here, and the massive full-spectrum lamps hanging from the ceilings high above helped keep everyone's diurnal cycle and sanity intact. Work was done in rotating shifts--the overhead lighting had graduated to late evening by now--but a minimum rest period was mandated. They had holidays, too--there'd be a revolt if they didn't--but any slave who spent those doing anything worthwhile would be shunned by others, and considered unworthy of the time off. Most people spent their holidays hanging around and abusing the extra Vitoc meant to last them for trips into the city and back again.

If anyone's health started to fail due to age or ongoing illness, they would still not be allowed to transfer out of the mine, but they might be moved to easier tasks. This was not only because the Amarr wanted to squeeze every last drop of life out of their work force, but because they'd found that the Minmatar who'd been slaves to the empire all their lives had a really hard time handling any kind of freedom, and had been inculcated with an unyielding, albeit guilty, need to constantly be of use to somebody.

So they might still be used as tutors for other slaves, or as fetchers if they'd retained their strength, or even as planners for new projects, because they would have had a lot of experience in knowing what new slaves were likely to accept. Cali had learned from one of those: How to scout for new seams, how to blast open a tunnel withotu having it cave in or ruin the materials you were after, and how to tell when a seam was starting to run low and it was time to prepare for going deeper yet again. If she'd wanted, she could have picked up metallurgy, geology, even business, and taken a (limited) part in oiling and running the great, smog-wreathed machine she was enmeshed in. She had opportunities, restricted though they were, and she had a facsimile of some kind of life here, albeit one tethered to the Amarr Empire from beginning to end.

- "A Traitorous Spark", EVE Source[/spoiler]

[Samira Kernher]

Also yes, surveillance stuff is commonplace. The Ministry of Internal Order is described as basically an unsecretive secret police. Everyone knows they're spying on everyone, and everyone is encouraged to report any sign of suspicious activity to them. So yes, police state.

Probably the biggest queller of social uprising is the informants who expose the orchestrators before it can get going, and so get large benefits as a result. I would expect this to be very common among slave communities: Treats for the one who informs on his disgruntled coworkers.

An additional major factor is the culture itself, which through society and religion indoctrinates the belief of submission to authority. This would be especially engendered amongst slaves, to the point that they have their very own church promoting it: The Salvation Church of Blessed Servitude. Refusal to obey authority is a sin, service is divine.

[Attacking a Holder] was unthinkable to the common Amarr man; the Empire, with its age-old traditions and structure, was the foundation of society itself. To every Amarrian life without the Empire was nothing but anarchy, chaos, dread and darkness.

... one of the rarest of social phenomenons in the Amarr Empire; that of social uprising.

-The Artifice Maker

(Artifice Maker is a good story regarding revolts, too. It describes one way the Empire handles them. In this case, it's a sting operation. They create a fake revolt leader, use him to gather up dissenters, and then arrest the lot them to show how easily the Empire puts down those who choose to rebel. Very Cardassian.)

[Nauplius]

Breeding facilities =/= Slave brothels though.

Well, if you read the rather creepy in-game description for one or more of the breeding facilities (I forgot exactly what the item title is), pleasure is definitely part of the experience.

For better or worse, I don't in the slightest trust EVE players to be able to maintain any kind of reasonable IC-OOC distinction on this sensitive subject, despite its being present in the lore, and so don't anticipate trying to use this particular subject matter in any way.

[Jace]

I just wanted to pop in and say that one should be wary of having a standardized notion of a 'Roman way' of slaveholding. It varied greatly depending on region. It doesn't matter how many laws technically protect you if you happen to live on the arse-end of the empire tremendously far away from Rome.

[Anyanka Funk]

Breeding facilities =/= Slave brothels though.

Well, if you read the rather creepy in-game description for one or more of the breeding facilities (I forgot exactly what the item title is), pleasure is definitely part of the experience.

For better or worse, I don't in the slightest trust EVE players to be able to maintain any kind of reasonable IC-OOC distinction on this sensitive subject, despite its being present in the lore, and so don't anticipate trying to use this particular subject matter in any way.

* Anyanka Funk outstretches a clammy hand

I believe this is what you are looking for:

Amarrian Breeding Facility

[Samira Kernher]

The Lottery describes life on one of those breeding colonies, by the way. Notably, the slaves onboard are raised with complete non-awareness as to what actually goes on.

One was the Baby section, where new arrivals were kept while they were acclimatizing to the facility. None of the children knew what criteria had been used to select the facility's inhabitants, nor did they remember anything of their past lives, although a few recalled the Baby section being peaceful and bright. Right next to it, nameless and uninteresting, was a section where some of the young girls were taken after being doomed to the colonies. It was whispered that marriage ceremonies took place there, the girls married off to Minmatar men and taken to new lives where they could serve Amarrian masters for five years without Vitoc before being set free. Every now and then a cargo ship would dock, stay for a day or two and then depart, which spawned rumors that the men from those ships had been boarding the facility to get married.

-The Lottery