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[Nmaro Makari]

The acronym SJW is, ironically for it's enthusiastic verbal proponents, a massive straw man.

[Jace]

Many studies have shown that homophobia declines significantly when looking at younger generations, as well as many other bigoted views. They will not go away completely in our lifetimes, but older generations dying off will certainly improve the situation.

[Kala]

Fuck them - they're nothing but people doing the same shit everybody else does and suffering the same consequence that everybody else suffers.

Well, agreed.  I'm not sympathizing because they're special celebrity snowflakes therefore deserving of more sympathy.  But because they're also people doing the same shit everybody else does and suffering the same consequences. Conceivably, I could see myself, as just another person, getting hacked or having data stolen.  The consequences for that could be sucky.

I don't see how they're deserving of any sympathy any other woman whose nudes leak without their consent isn't deserving of.

Well, no.  Revenge porn is fucking awful.  Awful in a different way (often it's not that something was hacked or stolen, more that someone you once trusted enough to take those photos is now using them against you as a weapon once the relationship has finished) but I would absolutely sympathize with them.  I wasn't aware it was a binary choice.

Quote from: Silas
In fact my understanding is many of them weren't even 'shared' with anyone else at all, just automatically synced with the icloud service.

I have a bridge I been trying to sell for months, it's in NY, I could really use the cash right now.

...Eh?  That's been my understanding as well, as pretty much every story I'd read about it depicted events that way.
What do you think happened instead...?

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Quote from: Silas
In fact my understanding is many of them weren't even 'shared' with anyone else at all, just automatically synced with the icloud service.

I have a bridge I been trying to sell for months, it's in NY, I could really use the cash right now.

...Eh?  That's been my understanding as well, as pretty much every story I'd read about it depicted events that way.
What do you think happened instead...?

Other people seem to think that what is going on is that these women and men have been defacto sending out their photos to literally everyone who has seen them on the internet I think?

[Havohej]

Quote from: Silas
In fact my understanding is many of them weren't even 'shared' with anyone else at all, just automatically synced with the icloud service.

I have a bridge I been trying to sell for months, it's in NY, I could really use the cash right now.

...Eh?  That's been my understanding as well, as pretty much every story I'd read about it depicted events that way.
What do you think happened instead...?

What woman in the history of cell phone cameras has ever taken nudes of herself where sending them to a paramour (or in some cases, a random idiot they're chatting with via kik or tinder or whatever other means of meeting people) wasn't involved?  They can claim whatever they like to try and recover their "good girl" images, everybody knows it's bullshit.  Nobody just takes a bunch of nudes of themselves with their cell phone cameras, just to be doing it.  Or do all of these women happen to have some sort of nympho-narcissistic mental disorder that causes them, specifically, to do something nobody does?  And they all have the same mental illness?  Maybe it's specific to celebrity women, is that it?

At least one person other than the woman pictured saw every one of those photographs before they were spread all over the internet.  That person would be the person the photographs (and in at least one case, video) was taken for.

Are you guys going to tell me you believe that Bill Clinton didn't inhale when he smoked that weed?  You probably still believe he didn't have sexual relations with Monica Lewinski, either, right?

Give me a fuckin' break!

[Kala]

@Havohej

Ok, but whatever the intent they had for taking their personal photos (which seems fairly irrelevant to me tbh), the apple cloud still automatically sync'd it to their phones, no...?

I don't get the argument at all.  There's no intent to share it with the entire internet to be gleaned from a service backing your data up.
There's no intent to share it with the entire internet if you wanted to show a specific person, either.

(That was how I understood Silas was using 'shared' here, though maybe there could be clarification).

[Vikarion]

You know, this doesn't add much to the discussion, but if someone stole nude photos of me and posted them online, with millions of internet dwellers fapping to them, I think I'm be more bemused and flattered than angry and hurt.

These - with the exception of any under-age ones - are just pictures. It's like no one ever expects that someone might have boobs or a dick until they take their clothes off. Newsflash: aside from deformity or disease, human bodies are pretty similar.

I'm not saying it's not a bad thing to do, I just think that I, personally, wouldn't consider it the end of the world.

[Havohej]

@Havohej

Ok, but whatever the intent they had for taking their personal photos (which seems fairly irrelevant to me tbh), the apple cloud still automatically sync'd it to their phones, no...?

I don't get the argument at all.  There's no intent to share it with the entire internet to be gleaned from a service backing your data up.
There's no intent to share it with the entire internet if you wanted to show a specific person, either.

(That was how I understood Silas was using 'shared' here, though maybe there could be clarification).

I don't have an apple product (Samsung master race), but I know google cloud has a box you check to not automatically back everything up.  I have to assume apple offers the same privacy protections.

So we're clear - neither I, nor Miz, nor anyone else in the thread so far has said or even intentionally implied that stealing and posting the pictures was "okay" or a "correct thing to do".  It was wrong.  It was a crime.

What I'm saying is that I have no sympathy for anyone this happens to, celeb or not, because common sense dictates that if something is transmitted over the internet at all, be it through cloud backup or SMS messaging a picture to another cell phone user, it's going to go places you have no intention of it going because :the internet:.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

@Havohej

Ok, but whatever the intent they had for taking their personal photos (which seems fairly irrelevant to me tbh), the apple cloud still automatically sync'd it to their phones, no...?

I don't get the argument at all.  There's no intent to share it with the entire internet to be gleaned from a service backing your data up.
There's no intent to share it with the entire internet if you wanted to show a specific person, either.

(That was how I understood Silas was using 'shared' here, though maybe there could be clarification).

I don't have an apple product (Samsung master race), but I know google cloud has a box you check to not automatically back everything up.  I have to assume apple offers the same privacy protections.

So we're clear - neither I, nor Miz, nor anyone else in the thread so far has said or even intentionally implied that stealing and posting the pictures was "okay" or a "correct thing to do".  It was wrong.  It was a crime.

What I'm saying is that I have no sympathy for anyone this happens to, celeb or not, because common sense dictates that if something is transmitted over the internet at all, be it through cloud backup or SMS messaging a picture to another cell phone user, it's going to go places you have no intention of it going because :the internet:.

Buried in menus, automatically ticked on by default, with no indication that it exists to someone who isn't familiar with what, exactly, cloud infrastructure is.  The only indication I get on my iPhone that it's on at all is that I haven't connected it to wifi in the last several months and hence it bitches at me that it hasn't been able to connect to its backup server.

Your sympathy ought not be related to the technical skill of the victim.

[Kala]

You know, this doesn't add much to the discussion, but if someone stole nude photos of me and posted them online, with millions of internet dwellers fapping to them, I think I'm be more bemused and flattered than angry and hurt.

These - with the exception of any under-age ones - are just pictures. It's like no one ever expects that someone might have boobs or a dick until they take their clothes off. Newsflash: aside from deformity or disease, human bodies are pretty similar.

I'm not saying it's not a bad thing to do, I just think that I, personally, wouldn't consider it the end of the world.

Don't see why you can't add it as a point of view on things, though 

I think the main issue for me is one of consent and context.  They're personal photos, so not intended for wide distribution.  So the context of the nude photos becomes something intended for one thing, being used to - well.  Maybe it was a photo you intended, as Hav suggests, for a significant other.  Maybe there was some kind of meaning or romantic context there.  And then the general public is fapping over them - kind of makes it a bit gross and tawdry after that.

I think as well, given we have so much freely available porn on the interwebs, part of the attraction *is* they aren't supposed to be seeing that photos, the illicit and voyeuristic aspect to it. As well as curiosity on celebrities, manufactured by celebrity culture.

Third thing that circles round my head (like a drain) is the idea of a nudity taboo as yes - we are all (pretty much) all the same under our clothes, an there's nothing new under the sun there.  We're also mostly conditioned to hide it away as something shameful, though.  Someone being completely comfortable in their body to be publicly nude is great.  But usually, they've also decided the context to do that. 

I'd feel utterly freaked out, myself, but then I value my privacy fairly highly and am definitely not free of insecure body issues.  I'd agree with you in principle about body taboos, though.

So we're clear - neither I, nor Miz, nor anyone else in the thread so far has said or even intentionally implied that stealing and posting the pictures was "okay" or a "correct thing to do".  It was wrong.  It was a crime.

What I'm saying is that I have no sympathy for anyone this happens to, celeb or not, because common sense dictates that if something is transmitted over the internet at all, be it through cloud backup or SMS messaging a picture to another cell phone user, it's going to go places you have no intention of it going because :the internet:.

Alright, I am not intending to mischaracterize your arguments; more to understand them.  I read you said victim blaming was the right thing to do here, and Miz was commenting the people who had their data stolen (i.e the victims) were equally at fault as the people taking them.  And that they practically did it to themselves.

(apologies, I am paraphrasing here, as I haven't gone back and found the appropriate quotes. Might go back and edit them in, so I'm sure not putting words in mouth

Further, victim blaming IS the right thing to do, here.  They have a share of the responsibility for this because they willingly took the pictures and put them on the internet.

Same with these pictures, if you upload them you're just as much to blame as the guy yoinking them off the servers.

Zero sympathy, they practically did it to themselves.

)

I would see that as undermining the idea that stealing the pictures was wrong and a crime, if you're blaming the victims for that crime, saying they were equally at fault, or they practically did it to themselves.  You've both acknowledged, yes, that it is wrong and a crime - but not left much the criminal can be blamed for.  The weight of blame appears to be directed elsewhere.

It is a different thing to suggest being careful with your data and due diligence on the internet is advisable.  (and not necessarily arguable with, as it's sound advice).

[Havohej]

Buried in menus, automatically ticked on by default, with no indication that it exists to someone who isn't familiar with what, exactly, cloud infrastructure is.  The only indication I get on my iPhone that it's on at all is that I haven't connected it to wifi in the last several months and hence it bitches at me that it hasn't been able to connect to its backup server.

Your sympathy ought not be related to the technical skill of the victim.

It isn't.  My sympathy doesn't exist.  They took pictures or allowed pictures to be taken (not all of the pictures are selfies.  Yes, I've seen them all.) with cell phones, and they got out.  I'm supposed to feel sorry for what, exactly?

[Havohej]

You've both acknowledged, yes, that it is wrong and a crime - but not left much the criminal can be blamed for.

The criminal can be and is being blamed for stealing and disseminating images and videos they had no legal authorization to do so with.

Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely any significant resources will be employed to identify and arrest the culprit.

[Lyn Farel]

Well, I'm not laughing at them, but nor do I have sympathy for them, no. Take nude pictures of yourself, risky. Share them with others, you've practically given them away already. Upload them to the internet? Welcome to some message board. Self-inflicted injury like this does not gain my sympathy, especially in this day and age. Ignorance isn't a good excuse when they should have known better.

Social darwninism heh ? That's something I came to seriously despise in Eve. And I was definitely not at the wrong end of the stick. But i'm a moral stuck up righteous prick anyway, so... I tend to think that most people these days do not have an ounce of self discipline. vOv

But i'm the first one to despise the masses for being ignorant in some matters while being actually very cultured in stuff like celebs and that kind of shit. Though I also know that not everybody is an internet or computer geek, even in our time and age and generation, far from it, and that no, they don't know better and shouldn't have.

I may hold a different position when it will be about the next generation for who they ALL were raised in a technological network environment. But not us.

[Lyn Farel]

But in this case? We can't really put the onus on the sociopaths of the world to stop being sociopaths. Avoiding being a target is pretty much your only effective option. Yes, we absolutely should address the culture that treats women as objects and their bodies as property.

They are not sociopaths. A sociopath is not by definition someone that will on purpose look to ruin your life and expose nude photos of you on the internet. It may help, but I call those people sadists, or whatever.

And I don't see at all why it would apply for rapists and not those people. Both have a problem and doing harm to society and individuals, even if not on the same scale. Though for celebs, i'm not even sure it's comparable.

So, we can't put the onus on assholes to stop being assholes, but we can put the onus on rapists to stop being rapists ? What kind of logic is that ?

That woman with the short skirt who gets raped?  She did not willingly remove any article of clothing and put a penis inside of herself.  She has no blame or responsibility for having been assaulted.

The woman that gets her nude pics stolen has no blame or responsibility for having been hacked. Except she put her pics at high risk on a place it was expected something like that to happen.

The woman that gets raped has no blame or responsibility for having been raped. Except she choose to wear a short skirt and expose herself to sexual temptation, increasing the odds to attract someone with sexual issues.


I don't see the difference, except on a matter of degree of violence. Care to explain again ?

[Lyn Farel]

@Jace: If you see someone trying to silence the people who took and uploaded those pictures anywhere, feel free to let me know. There haven't been any in this thread nor where I've seen this debate elsewhere.

I have seen it in this thread done by most people defending the "no sympathy for them" side. Consciously or unconsciously, call it whatever you want, you did it.

While you agree that it was a crime, you make every attempt to say that they do not deserve sympathy (and so, that they deserved what they got). If that is not trying to silence them our of their "victimization" as you call it, I don't know what it is.

You know, this doesn't add much to the discussion, but if someone stole nude photos of me and posted them online, with millions of internet dwellers fapping to them, I think I'm be more bemused and flattered than angry and hurt.

These - with the exception of any under-age ones - are just pictures. It's like no one ever expects that someone might have boobs or a dick until they take their clothes off. Newsflash: aside from deformity or disease, human bodies are pretty similar.

I'm not saying it's not a bad thing to do, I just think that I, personally, wouldn't consider it the end of the world.

Heh, that's true, and it clearly shows to me that we still live in a stuck up binary sexual society where for males it would be "lolwut have you seen my junk ?" while for females it is more "dat slut/whore/insert sexual slur".

It is true that in their place I would tend more to think that as even flattering, even if highly embarrassing. But the main issue is that they perfectly know what people will think, not necessarily "omagad they have seen me naked".

Considering where post modernism is going right now, I only see those as transitional issues. If one day we get a true genre equality added to the fact that we ARE going into a total pervasive of a surveillance society where everyone knows everything about everyone, most of our problems could be fixed, or at least, changed. When everyone knows everything about everyone, they is not anymore huge outrages, silly fantasms on celebs, dirty secrets, etc, since you know that everyone is doing it anyway. Which leads to the question of surveillance being a nasty thing and all... Yes, unless you start to introduce the concept of sousveillance, where not only authorities can monitor you everywhere, but every citizen can monitor authorities as well, and that's what is already starting to happen. Barely, but it will, i'm pretty confident in it.

But that's another issue somehow.