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[Kala]

EDIT: Which is to say, it's their own fault.  They took a risk when they took the pictures and transmitted them electronically.  There are nudes of me on the interwebs, but you know what?  None of them have my face in them.  Now I'm not famous, so I'm not a target for hackers to wanna expose the junk in my trunk, but any one of these women could've taken that very simple precaution.

And don't get me started on poor McKayla Maroney and her underage nudes that she took of herself for a boy.  The fact that she's not up on child pornography charges is bullshit.

*blinks*

I'd struggle not to feel sorry for them, tbh.  Simply because I wouldn't like my personal shit stolen, either. I'm not sure the content of that personal shit, or their celebrity status, makes a difference to the principle of the thing.

A lot of people do - friends in real life do - and I have to admit that way of thinking bemuses me.  When expressing I empathised, because I wouldn't like it happening to me, it was suggested that it *wouldn't* happen to me - because these people are rich and famous.  So what? So they somehow deserve it?  That just sounds like sour grapes, tbh.  No,  I'm not as rich, successful or attractive as these women.  So I should wish them ill or something? At the end of the day they're still just people, and have done no harm to me personally.

Ok, yes, it is on the internet.  By way of the apple cloud syncing the photos from their phone.  Supposedly a secure service.

My banking details are also on the internet.  By way of online banking. Also, supposedly a secure service. 

If someone hacked into my banking site, I would blame the bank for not living up to the guarantees of security they have offered me, and I would blame the hacker for doing something criminal.  I'd be a bit irked if someone said it was my fault, because don't I know nothing on the internet is secure, or what can I expect with something being online. 

And yes, you would probably expect (and hope) a bank to have more security than apple's cloud.  But it's down to the company to provide a secure service and protect your data, to whatever degree that is required.

So Apple are at fault for their security vulnerabilities, as far as I can see.  The hacker is at fault for doing something both legally wrong and ethically dubious.  And there's something skeevy, invasive and a bit off about their being such a demand for celebrities personal pics in the first place; though I'm not entirely surprised as that's the sort of shit tabloid rags manufacture to sell their pap shots.  And the cult of celebrity in our culture.  Etc. 

But yeah.  Those pictures were meant for the individuals concerned, not the entire internet.  We are not entitled to them simply because they're celebrities, and the idea that we are is as gross as rifling through someones drawers and sniffing their knickers. 

And yes, revenge porn is just as gross and weird.  And perhaps comes from a similar place.  This ex deserves it because she upset/hurt/betrayed/rejected me.  These celebrities deserve it because they're rich and famous, and shouldn't be taking naked pictures for their personal use anyways (for some reason?).


Quite liked Penn's comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPzwVust5UE

Additionally, one of them - Elizabeth something or other?  Said that those photos were for her husband, and she'd deleted them.  Which doesn't mean they can't be recovered, just that someone was going to some effort to get them, whatever precautions she had taken.  Further, I can't see the moral outrage angle some people have taken - of loose young women taking naughty photos and therefore they deserve it somehow for being so slutty and scandalous in the first place - being particularly relevant to a married couple.  Likewise, a lot (most?) of these people are actresses conducting fairly long term relationships due to conflicting schedules, locations etc.  So I can understand why taking and sending nudie pictures, phone sex, etc with their partner might be viable to keep things going.

Don't think any of that means they deserve what they got or had it coming.

Re:  McKayla Maroney - why would she be up on child pornography charges?  As well as that being the kind of text book example of the letter of the law (dissemination of underage material) being against the spirit of a law (protecting minors) ( i.e two people sharing pictures of themselves who happen to be underage, is not the same context as child pornography or an adult exploiting a minor, although both scenarios involve viewing underage material) she wasn't the one disseminating them all over the internet.  That would be the hacker who obtained it, and then the people who have continued to host it on reddit etc.

And yes, someone could be in trouble for viewing it.   
But that's hardly McKayla Maroney's fault.

[Mizhara]

I don't think you can compare bank services and nude photos. One of them is sort of important to keep your life running, the other is personal gratification of some sort. One of them you need, period. The other is rather bloody optional. There is absolutely no excuse for not knowing that anything and everything you upload these days is at risk, and the very second you share anything with someone else it might just be plastered all over the internet the next day. If you undock in Eve, you consented to suicide ganks and horrible horrible things. When you take nude photos of yourself and upload them anywhere you bloody well accepted the risk that they just might get into the wrong hands.

It's an active choice on their part to take that risk and thus I have, like Havo, zero sympathy for them. The guys who struck gold and unleashed The Fappening are weaponsgrade douchebottles, but that doesn't make the act of uploading this shit to a cloud service any less utterly fucking retarded. Just taking the pictures in the first place means you're accepting the risk that someone else might get their hands on them.

I don't feel sorry for them for a second, as they could have done exactly the same I've done. Not take fucking naked pictures and transmitting them online.

[Kala]

I don't think you can compare bank services and nude photos. One of them is sort of important to keep your life running, the other is personal gratification of some sort. One of them you need, period. The other is rather bloody optional. There is absolutely no excuse for not knowing that anything and everything you upload these days is at risk, and the very second you share anything with someone else it might just be plastered all over the internet the next day. If you undock in Eve, you consented to suicide ganks and horrible horrible things. When you take nude photos of yourself and upload them anywhere you bloody well accepted the risk that they just might get into the wrong hands.

It's an active choice on their part to take that risk and thus I have, like Havo, zero sympathy for them. The guys who struck gold and unleashed The Fappening are weaponsgrade douchebottles, but that doesn't make the act of uploading this shit to a cloud service any less utterly fucking retarded. Just taking the pictures in the first place means you're accepting the risk that someone else might get their hands on them.

I don't feel sorry for them for a second, as they could have done exactly the same I've done. Not take fucking naked pictures and transmitting them online.

I'm not sure the content of that personal shit, or their celebrity status, makes a difference to the principle of the thing.

As I stated, I'm not saying online banking and nude photos are the same things.  What I am saying is the underlying principle is the same in both; in that something has been illegally obtained - i.e stolen via hacking - from an individual. It doesn't matter if it's bank statements or nude photos - or anything else, for that matter, for that principle to be the same.

The item changing, or the relative security of the platform changing, does not change that principle as far as I can see.

Nor does the identity of the individual(s) concerned.

(Though as an unrelated aside, I don't think private individuals need, period, online banking.  Mostly it's just much more convenient than using high street banks or cheque books like we used to do).

[Mizhara]

Given that banks are shutting down rural services all across the western world, online banking is pretty much required for a lot of people. Anyway, that's a sidetrack. The point is, they made the conscious choice of taking those pictures then practically publishing them. If I take naked pictures, put them somewhere online and they end up on a message board, I've got no one but myself to blame.

[Kala]

If I take naked pictures, put them somewhere online and they end up on a message board, I've got no one but myself to blame.

Well, that depends.

If you take naked pictures of yourself and upload them freely and publicly onto a fairly niche group somewhere online (or even your MySpace or Facebook) for whatever reason, and that then finds it's way onto reddit or 4chan for wider dissemination, then it's unfortunate.  I'd still feel slightly sorry for you, if your naked body had been singled out as a humiliating meme for the wider internet to laugh at, for example, but I'd concede no real crime had been committed there.

(well, apart from possible copyright issue, but it's a fairly common thing to share and host images without permission)

If you take a naked picture of yourself with your phone, and it syncs your data with the apple cloud, then someone hacks into that service and steals your data, then disseminates it on image and message boards, then you have got someone else to blame.  Foremost, the person illegally obtaining your personal data.

Oh edit:

Given that banks are shutting down rural services all across the western world, online banking is pretty much required for a lot of people. Anyway, that's a sidetrack.

I think that's a valid point in your sidetrack  And I expect its something that will become less of a convenience and more of a necessity for everyone as time goes on.  Thing is though, a lot of the people disenfranchised, tend to be older people affected; such as phasing out of chequebooks, who tend to be a demographic (though certainly not all) who won't use online banking precisely because they don't trust anything 'on the internet'. My folks, while not elderly, are getting on a bit in years and live in a rural area - they use the internet, but wouldn't trust their bank stuffs being online, so they end up driving a fair way out of their way to a bank instead.  )

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

You don't need online banking to survive.

It is a service that is offered and there is an expectation of safety.  Whether that expectation is reasonable or not is another story, but what is completely irrelevant is that perception of safety.

Data ia data is data.  If a service is offered wherein my Data is stored elsewhere and I am told that it is safe (because of course you are going to be told that) it doesn't matter what that actual data is, whether it be my mothers recipes, my online banking information, or pictures of myself nude, having that data stolen is still at worst theft and at minimum a massive invasion of my privacy and a precursor to fraud or other crimes (such as harrassment).

So yeah, I feel for these people when this sort of shit happens just as I feel for someone who has their banking information or their identity stolen.  Someone has invaded their privacy, gained access to their 1's and 0's that they thought were private, and is using that information to either enrich themselves or make their lives hell.

[Mizhara]

Sorry no but that's just too naive. It doesn't matter where it's uploaded to. What matters is a) You uploaded it. Sorry, you dun fucked up. It's out there now and it's your fault and b) You took the damn things in the first place.

Of course it's illegal and of course whoever did it is a douche, but you made it happen when you did seriously stupid shit to start with. Trust any service, no matter which service (particularly free service) to keep your images and data safe? You're a bloody idiot and need to be downgraded to two cans and a string until you've stopped saying and doing stupid shit.

Rule one: If you upload it, it's no longer under your control. You have no one else to blame. You don't leave the keys in your car and your house unlocked. You don't use your password and login info on public terminals. You don't upload naked pictures and expect them to stay hidden.  Unless of course you either intend for them to get stolen or have suffered severe braindamage.

Zero sympathy, they practically did it to themselves.

@Tib, you don't need anything to survive except shelter from the elements and the capacity to hollow out a bear to sleep in through winter by that logic. The point there is that in the modern world, banking is required to get your pay, your bills paid etc etc. It's not doable without banking services. There is absolutely nothing that requires you to upload your nudes or lose out on a job, a place to live etc.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

My point isn't about that, Miz.  You missed the point.

My point is that it doesn't matter how IMPORTANT the data is, because data is just data.  You ought to feel bad because someone had their shit stolen, not modifying how bad you feel based on whether you feel that shit was important enough.

Someone stole these photos because of attitudes like Havo's and yours, where they somehow deserve it because they're "famous", as if their nudes which were taken in their private time are somehow part of the public interest.  You don't get to say "serves them right" for their nudes but then somehow think that their other data is not also up for grabs.

Also, I would love to live in a world where everyone understands that data uploaded to the cloud is NOT SAFE, but we do not live in that world.  Cloud services trumpet how safe they are.. where they even tell you that this is where things are being saved.  I would be willing to bet most of these people have options turned on in their phones that cause them to save their photos to the cloud, because most people do.  They aren't even aware of it, because these services are considered to be 'opt-out' rather than 'opt-in'.

[Mizhara]

I think you're misunderstanding this. It's not about whether it was important enough. It's not about anyone deserving it "because they're famous". It's about them being too fucking stupid to be allowed to own anything more technologically advanced than a toast iron. I don't care if they're celebrities or average joe and jane. I don't care if it's nude pictures or bank statements. I really don't.

They took the pictures in the first place. They uploaded(!) them.

Zero sympathies. They left their house unlocked and the keys in the ignition. Of course there'll be some asshole out there that will steal their shit.

I would love to live in a world without these people, but I don't. That's why I don't do utterly stupid shit like this.

[Shiori]

words

..so did you look at those pics, or not?

Had a good ol' wank afterwards?

Was it required to get your pay, bills paid, keep your job and place to live etc.?

[PracticalTechnicality]

Today I learned:

If I steal from a house with an open door it isn't theft.

If I publish photos without consent because I have them it isn't violation of privacy/ownership rights.

People who upload photos or leave things insecure deserve what is coming to them.

Just wondering but how far does the 'take it because it is there and they aren't protecting it exactly to my specifications' does the logic of key individuals in this thread go? 

[Mizhara]

words

..so did you look at those pics, or not?

Had a good ol' wank afterwards?

Was it required to get your pay, bills paid, keep your job and place to live etc.?

Ah, got no arguments so you try to invent something about the one you disagree with. As it happens, I did not in fact look at the pics. By all descriptions when The Fappening happened, it was merely ordinary nude pictures which is largely a very American thing to get incredibly excited about. I prefer my porn to be pornographic, thank you. There's no need to invent stuff to make me look bad, I keep all that stuff publicly available and well published.

Today I learned:

If I steal from a house with an open door it isn't theft.

If I publish photos without consent because I have them it isn't violation of privacy/ownership rights.

People who upload photos or leave things insecure deserve what is coming to them.

Just wondering but how far does the 'take it because it is there and they aren't protecting it exactly to my specifications' does the logic of key individuals in this thread go? 

You learned nothing. If you steal from a house with an open door, it's theft but it's the owner's fucking fault nonetheless. Try arguing with an insurance company about that. If you publish photos without consent, it's violation of privacy and ownership rights but you bloody gave the photos out to the public to start with, so it's your fucking fault. Yes, if you don't take measures to keep your stuff safe, you're as much to blame as any thief.

A thief is a thief and should be treated as such, but if you let the thief in yourself, you're both at fault and I have no sympathy for either of you.

[PracticalTechnicality]

You don't sign a moral contract with an insurer, you sign a legal and financial agreement.  The comparison you made is as empty as you claimed the bank comparison to be earlier.  You might argue that we as individuals don't sign a moral contract with one another, at which point we have little to say to each other as civilized human beings. 

Your sympathy, as high as you seem to value it, is not asked for nor is it required.  The recognition of immoral acts as being what they are, regardless of pre-existing conditions, is. 

That people fall victim to their ignorance is punishment enough, but education is required on two fronts.  Firstly, educating those who use certain technologies in best practice and personal safety.  Secondly in educating people to not abuse the ignorance of others for personal gain (financial, gratification etc) as a general activity. 

Finally, when education fails, without punishment of wrong doing for those who abuse the naive, only the naive suffer.  Standards must be enforced, individuals should be held accountable and your 'sympathy' or mine holds no value in the equation.  The victim has already been held accountable by the transgression, punishment of the offender will not diminish the impact of the transgression.  However, punishment of the offender raises awareness of the fact that these actions are immoral at their core, and may assist as a useful case study for future, more effective, education of all involved and observing. 

[Mizhara]

My responses were on the subject of having sympathy towards these idiots that uploaded their stuff. You may not have asked for it, but a lot of people in this thread have. Nowhere have I said the thieves shouldn't face their own consequences. I don't care about moral vs legal agreements and contracts, it is just a very simple fact that if you don't lock your door you're just as much to blame as the guy going through it. Same with these pictures, if you upload them you're just as much to blame as the guy yoinking them off the servers.

[kalaratiri]

Borderline sociopathy alive and well among Eve players.

No one is surprised.