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[Jikahr]

Personally speaking I like the fact that the PF is vague about this concept.  Whether intentional or not I think this allows for a breadth of interpretations a la literalist and figurative interpretations much like in current Christian debate circles.

The advantage of course being that here it creates content and doesn't actually gamble our immortal souls (I kid.)

It allows characters like Nauplius to channel Wesboro-esque fire and brim stone to exist in the same world as more critical theologians like Nico for example.

And more importantly it allows for a debate like this to happen IC'ly instead of backstage.

I agree with this, and I think it's intentional. The 'sandbox' of EVE naturally extends to religion as well. The Unified Catholic Church was just meant to give us an outline, a trope, a rough hewn example of the kind of religion that Amarrians worship.

It's monotheistic and Imperialistic. It's capable of the greatest of atrocities as well as the noblest of humanitarian acts. It's the Spanish Inquisition and the scholarly Monasteries. It's comparable to the Catholic church of medieval Europe in the same way that a Minmatar Rifter is comparable with a catamaran sailboat.

The concept of Hell as an actual place of fire and brimstone certainly gives Naupilius his opportunity to springboard into some very dynamic and active roleplay which everyone seems to enjoy. Naupilus has invested a lot of his EVE isk and RL time researching the role for the enrichment of the EVE Roleplay community as a whole, so why look a gifted Slaver hound in the mouth?

It's also plausible that there are hundreds if not thousands of different perspectives within the Orthodox Amarrian religion itself about the existence of Hell.

There are, after all, hundreds of thousands of planets with perhaps millions of Indigenous cultures with their own religions and philosophies, all of which have been absorbed into the Amarr Empire.

 A person or persons would not stop believing in their own myths, heroes, and view of the afterlife, simply because their own culture and Government was crushed by an overwhelming Military force. African slaves did not forget their native religions when brought to America, they simply integrated them with those of their Masters.

The most important aspect(s) of the Orthodox Amarrian religion seems to be submission to authority and the sanctity of flesh.

Also of course, Naupilius is Sani Sabik and not Orthodox. There are thousands of different sects of Sani Sabik. So, if there were a thousand different Blood Raider role players, each one could have a different interpretation in the form of their own sect, and technically none of them would be 'incorrect'.

[Samira Kernher]

A person or persons would not stop believing in their own myths, heroes, and view of the afterlife, simply because their own culture and Government was crushed by an overwhelming Military force. African slaves did not forget their native religions when brought to America, they simply integrated them with those of their Masters.

Yes, for sure. While Amarr tries very hard to crush the foreign influences, hence the generational slavery, and they are very successful at it due to how long the slave families remain enslaved (far longer than most IRL), some of it still gets through and sticks. Ni-Kunni rituals are a noted one, and Source goes into a Minmatar-Amarr hybrid religion developed by some slaves that incorporates pantheism, communal meditation, and ritual sacrifices, which is obviously considered heretical by the Amarr. I thought that was one of the coolest things that Source added. And we already know that the Starkmanir have a heretical church based around St. Arzad, and the Ammatar had their own church which probably included Matari aspects (considering that they explicitly named their new domain "San-Matar"). Kameiras also have retained some Matari traits.

That cultural and religious dualism is something I've loved playing with on Samira.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Actually, I don't think that Amarr tries that hard to crush foreign infuences per se. It really depends on the aspects that a certain culture brings along.The polytheism/henotheism of the Ni-Kunni had to be replaced by a much more strict monotheism, sure. Their water rituals? They are OK as long as they are purged of the unwanted aspects. Same with the Khanid: They were able to keep to a lot of their traditions, given they integrated them in the Amarr frame.

Also there is no need to look at Afircan slaves for heterogenity in Christianity. The Roman Catholicism comprises next to the western 'main' Church 22 autonomous eastern Rite churches. Not only that: Within the Western Roman Catholic sphere there exist many regional varieties in theology and liturgy, from the Mozarabic rite to the monastic Benedictine rite over the various variations of the ordinary Roman rite to the eastern rites of the 22easten catholic churches.

There's always this idea in the EVE-RP scene, it appears to me, that deviation of any sort is already heresy and slavery is meant to extinguish all deviation. While a) in truth most religions allow for quite a large are of acceptable heterodoxy/-praxy and b) Amarr seem very aware that they can't simply eradicate entire cultures and aim instead to incorporate them in a way that allows to keep features the Amarr look at favourably (e.g. they like the artistical bent of Ni-Kunni culture, as it means they have specialists for those tasks) while subdueing and eventually eliminating the parts they deem unfit.

It is more that just hinted at that this is what happened with the Udorian culture as it was assimilated: Eventually ending up shaping Amarrian culture in a lot of aspects as it was integrated pretty much seamlessly.

[Lyn Farel]

The Recess Cultural Center ! 

[Samira Kernher]

Actually, I don't think that Amarr tries that hard to crush foreign infuences per se. It really depends on the aspects that a certain culture brings along.

Well yes, it would certainly depend on what the aspect is and whether it can mesh with the existing culture.

There's always this idea in the EVE-RP scene, it appears to me, that deviation of any sort is already heresy and slavery is meant to extinguish all deviation. While a) in truth most religions allow for quite a large are of acceptable heterodoxy/-praxy and b) Amarr seem very aware that they can't simply eradicate entire cultures and aim instead to incorporate them in a way that allows to keep features the Amarr look at favourably (e.g. they like the artistical bent of Ni-Kunni culture, as it means they have specialists for those tasks) while subdueing and eventually eliminating the parts they deem unfit.

I wasn't trying to say that it was a 100% thing or that Amarr counts anything not-orthodox as instantly heresy. There's good quotes in both Book of Emptiness and Source that say as much. There's also several heterodox branches of the faith that we know about already--Salvation Church, Ammatar Church, Khanid Church (ish, was heretical for a long while so lots of people probably still consider it poorly), and I would imagine there's lots lots more. Even Tetrimon tends to drop in and out of acceptance.

Can't say I agree in regards to the slavery thing though. Getting people to convert doesn't take all that long at all, and they don't release people just for converting. Eliminating as much of the foreign culture as possible seems to me like it would be one of the main justifications for keeping people in chains for so long and not simply releasing everyone as soon as they convert. Afterall, they ban Matari tattoo practices despite the fact that Amarr themselves regularly wear face tattoos. And it's said many times that they were intentionally trying to, and successfully did, eliminate much of Matari culture. Arzad's acceptance of and desire to learn more about Matari culture was a deviance.

There's also this story from Eterne's non-official stuff that I find very potent on that front.

I would think that acceptance of some foreign elements happens more with free allies rather than with slaves. The Khanid and the Ammatar weren't really enslaved, nor the Caldari, and the Ni-Kunni were only enslaved for a little while, because the Minmatar came along and replaced them, so their culture hadn't managed to all fade from collective memory yet. So for all of those there was more incentive to try and tolerate the aspects that didn't disagree with Amarr culture. Hence Amarr-Minmatar Culture Center for the Ammatar. But for those who are enslaved I would think the culture is written off entirely because it's deemed as something corruptive and dangerous to slave and society, and from an indoctrination perspective you need to eliminate the ability of the slave to find strength and solidarity in things separate from their masters so that they are forced to be reliant on their masters. Only a few things are accepted, and then only grudgingly for favored and important servants, like Kameira funeral pyres and ash tattoos which are officially banned but usually just ignored. But of course, some things might be ignored just because the owner doesn't care, or things otherwise just manage to slip through.

[Louella Dougans]

i feel stupid now, for not knowing that Eterne was Yoshito.

really stupid.

[Lyn Farel]

That Samira, is what I call the new PF. It's more categorical, black and white, and overall, has set or reversed limits and clarifications on things that were more... subtle in the past. Can't really bring up quotes and articles obviously, but that's mostly my personal experience. There are actually a lot of counter examples to "the Amarr tried to erase every bit of Matari culture". I wasn't citing the Amarr-Minmatar Cultural Recess above for nothing. There was once a LOT of stuff revolving around the Ammatar and how they represented a mix between the Amarr and Matari culture.

I may be a bit seeing too far into it but I have always held that view that while the Amarr enslaved the Matari, as most other races before they didn't really try to erase every bit of culture those had. I mean, most other races either joined willingly out of admiration and pride (like the Khanid) and so embraced it willingly, or where technologically so inferior that the Amarr descending from the skies in huge arks of wonders would probably have been seen as near gods. As for the Udorians, even if there was a long wars against them upon generation, they have actually had a huge impact and transformation of the Amarr society from the inside, which mean that the Amarr Reclamation was not so much about the cultural aftertaste, but just about the conquest itself.

Then came the Matari, which was a little bit bigger to chew since they were also a space faring society, albeit less technologically advanced. They proved to be a new challenge and difficulty for the Amarr that while they had that huge reclaiming experience, had not very much experience in actually shaping and erasing a strong culture that actually dared to resist. Well obviously they tried to eradicate a lot of its tenets that were the most 'dangerous'. It is said clearly in PF that a lot of Matari history has been carefully erased from all archives.

However I think there are a few subtle hints that I actually consider as very revealing about the Amarr integration process after having reclaimed a culture. While the Udorians are here to prove it, there is also the case of the Ammatar Mandate. While the Amarr had to suddenly face a culture that was so hard to integrate and tame to their Faith, they also saw in the Ammatar a way to prove that they could actually integrate the Matari culture into the Amarr Faith, and brandished that new cultural construct as a proof of the success of the Reclaiming of yet another culture that now thrived under its own faith and differences, but united under God. The Ammatar case in itself was the direct response to the Matari rebellion, as a slap in their face as to show that their reclaiming was definitely not a failure, far from it, and that yet again, it worked.

As for the Udorians, but even more in this case, I think that trend that is maybe not initially intended with each Reclaiming, is actually a good hint at how the Amarr like (or are content with) puppet cultures retaining their exotic flavour and still following the main tenets of the Scriptures, all in fear and devotion to God, yadayada. Much like the western world was very found of everything that followed their culture and came from exotic nation during the colonial times, if you will, though the analogy sounds a bit weird to me.

Also, the Book of Emptiness chronicle as I recall it, was a direct and clear hint at the religious tolerance and hunger for everything new and ground breaking related to their beliefs, but that, of course, under extreme cautions (cf the guy that actually guards the theologian/archaeologist and the duality they form, that's a direct metaphor for the duality between the dogma and the enlightenment of the amarr society).