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[Mizhara]

Okay, while I am sort of in favor of this kind of thing simply due to the sheer horror of dropping all that SP, how exactly would that work neurologically? The clone comes out of the treedee fleshwerkz printer partly as a copy of the old body (variables DNA doesn't account for, like scars, body mass, fitness etc) and partly from DNA cloning as I understand these things. The brain is a fairly complex organ where we're partly determined by DNA (the base model sans life experience) and partly by the experiences we've had. In a straight up cloning and infomorph imprint, these things match.

In a clonejack though, you only get half the ingredients, the infomorph. How does that infomorph manage to settle into a completely different neural architecture without demolishing and rebuilding it to fit, or morphing the infomorph to fit the current domicile? The former would have significant impact on the clone's viability as all our brains are uniquely "trained" to perform different tasks in a particular body while the latter would change the infomorph into... something that wouldn't be the infomorph to begin with?

Are we waving the magic space wand or can this actually be explained with a bit of fuzzy technology?

[Morwen Lagann]

More or less my thoughts in more words, Samira.

The 'ooh I can touch it' factor is pretty important to a lot of people, and not something that's likely to go away just because it isn't 'needed' anymore.

Morwen communicates to the Summit or other comms channels when she is out and about by subvocalization or something that outwardly would, I suppose, equate to thought-casting. She doesn't use cameras or camera drones these days (why? that's what RP is for), and generally connects only via audio connection, if that.

Datapads or other physical Neocom-linked devices are for actual work. Holointerfaces with haptic feedback (shamelessly stolen from Mass Effect, just minus the finger-implants) too.

[Jace]

Holointerfaces with haptic feedback (shamelessly stolen from Mass Effect, just minus the finger-implants) too.

Just throwing in a side-note that these are useful as hell when writing fiction.

[Samira Kernher]

Okay, while I am sort of in favor of this kind of thing simply due to the sheer horror of dropping all that SP, how exactly would that work neurologically? The clone comes out of the treedee fleshwerkz printer partly as a copy of the old body (variables DNA doesn't account for, like scars, body mass, fitness etc) and partly from DNA cloning as I understand these things. The brain is a fairly complex organ where we're partly determined by DNA (the base model sans life experience) and partly by the experiences we've had. In a straight up cloning and infomorph imprint, these things match.

In a clonejack though, you only get half the ingredients, the infomorph. How does that infomorph manage to settle into a completely different neural architecture without demolishing and rebuilding it to fit, or morphing the infomorph to fit the current domicile? The former would have significant impact on the clone's viability as all our brains are uniquely "trained" to perform different tasks in a particular body while the latter would change the infomorph into... something that wouldn't be the infomorph to begin with?

Are we waving the magic space wand or can this actually be explained with a bit of fuzzy technology?

In order for it to work it'd require some kind of physical interaction with the cloning facility to get one of "your" brains into the body. While the brains themselves are just blank grey matter before the transfer, their shape and size is specifically based off of earlier brain scans. The molecular receptors are also linked to that person's burning scanner, so there's no way of getting access to the mind transfer unless you're using their pod or have managed to steal the fluid router (as, due to quantum entanglement, it's only ever a one-to-one quantum pair and thus you can't highjack the transmission). So clonejacking would require either finding someone with a similar shape and size (and then steal their pod/fluid router), or somehow getting your people in to the facility to sabotage the clone itself, implementing a base brain matter with your own size and shape and linked to your own burn scanner. Rather extensive work needed.

Hell, the easiest thing would really just be creating a clone in your own facility, linked to your own burning scanner, that looks like the person you're copying, which you yourself then clone into in your own facility. Then you'd have to find some way of getting all the legal stuff changed so that you can take over that person's identity, and find some way of ending or otherwise incapacitating the person you're copying.

[Mizhara]

That's actually a much better solution indeed, Sam. The difference between rubber hose hacking and building a Beowulf cluster, curse this forum's lack of an XKCD reference bot. Of course, then comes the trouble with DNA (we shed enough samples of it through any given day that it'd be real hard not to give them out to every person we meet) and other bio identification.

Hrr, clonejacks are troublesome creatures to get workin'.

[Morwen Lagann]

I don't remember the exact details of how we handled it back then given the utter and complete lack of any sort of PF on cloning at the time beyond the article and the scattered references here or there.

The exact details are pretty irrelevant in the end, imo; I don't think it's an episode any of the participants would be willing to talk about openly with anyone who wasn't part of it, so it may as well not have happened as far as the rest of the cluster is concerned.

[Samira Kernher]

It's all rather complicated and certainly not a way of keeping your skillpoints either, since the skillpoints are kind of part of the brain. If you transfer yourself into someone else's body, it's your mind in their body--meaning your skillpoints, not theirs.

So all in all, clonejacking is really complicated to get right and doesn't offer the key benefit we're looking for here (keeping skillpoints). At least if we're considering it from the IC perspective rather than OOC here.

TBH though, you don't -need- a lot of skillpoints to play the game. There's nothing wrong with just starting a new character, it doesn't take that long to get them to a level capable of playing the game at a decent level.

[Mizhara]

I really can't agree there. The ability to fly every T2 and T3 Cruiser of just one single race (and most T2s of other sizes) with perfect fitting skills etc is a humongous investment and a significant loss no matter how you turn it. I've set up a few new characters in my time and even with two years of training (I'm looking at Evemon right now) that two year old has several extreme shortcomings that can only be fixed in a timespan of years.

You just can't get that sort of adaptability combined with good performance without a LOT of sp.

[Jace]

As someone who has still not recovered from some biomasses, starting over is terrible. Unless all you want to focus on is small gang roams, it is just awful. Granted, my frustration has been extended due to hiatuses and the like, but it is just frustrating.

[Samira Kernher]

As someone who only has one and a half years of training (or less, as I've gone several months leaving it empty), I really can't see it. I'm at the point where I feel like I'm training just for the sake of training, and am already and have for awhile been at the place I need to be able to do everything in-game that I enjoy doing.

*shrugs*

[Jace]

... and am already and have for awhile been at the place I need to be able to do everything in-game that I enjoy doing.

*shrugs*

I think this is the key part. For the people that enjoy doing a bit of everything, it is a very long haul.

[Mizhara]

Yeah, you can't exactly say that everyone should be happy if they have your skillset. Years of training and enjoying high adaptability is important to some of us.

[Samira Kernher]

I do a bit of everything, though. I do frigate pvp, cruiser pvp, could do battlecruiser and battleship pvp but it's not really a thing in FW, t4 missions, invention and manufacturing, planetary industry, and exploration. Right now I'm just working on expanding my t2 ship options, but I don't consider those essential to playing the game and hardly ever use them. *shrugs*

I guess I just see my abilities as already pretty broad, so it's hard to imagine what another few years of skillpoints would achieve.

[Mizhara]

While they're not essential (what is really?) they're incredibly nice to have once you've grown used to them. Particularly if you have the income to sustain it. The difference between T1 and T2 ships is humongous.

[Aria Jenneth]

Mizhara:

I believe it is discussed somewhere that clone brains are, themselves, artificial: a sort of bioelectrically-active gel that can be imprinted into a particular brain structure as needed. I forget where; it's been nearly a year.

Regardless, the clonejack is a verified "thing that happens." See, e.g., One Man Too Many." The details are mostly important in working out the nature of a person who could gain such access: the options range from a fairly conventional identity thief (the implications of which are horrifying) to an organized crime or governmental agent or client of same.


Samira:

Sadly, I have a taste for pretty toys such as T3 cruisers, and the skillset to back them up. Training back to the point of being able to go roaming around nullsec with an all-aspect explorer Tengu (It probes! It fights! It hacks! It hides!) would take a while.

In fleets, I favor acting as scout and/or Ewar, and I've pretty much completed training in that role. One of the very first skills I ever took to 5 was cloaking. It took a month, but I've really never looked back.

The road was a long one. I'm a little disinclined to repeat it.