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[Kala]

Honestly, when it comes to gaming, I have far less irritation with either of them than I do with Bioware and the Mass Effect 3 ending. Although being upset at Bioware apparently makes me an asshole as well, at least according to Bioware.

I wasn't that interested in Mass Effect tbh (with the possible exception of space badgers) but I'm upset at Bioware for making less complex character interactions since Baldur's Gate (1998!) instead of more.

I liked Dragon Age, I very much enjoyed the voice acting (Claudia Black!) but going from the whole idea of the various good/neutral/evil lawful/true/chaotic alignments and the actual consequences that could arise from disparate alignments or making too many choices they disagree with (they could leave, or kill eachother, or attack you) to 'give me a gift and I will like you' is just...Waaa? No! Dammit.  Why have you made every character a shallow valley girl to be bought with shiny objects? And why the fuck aren't they suspicious of this? BEWARE OF TROJANS BEARING GIFTS (or...anyone else, sans wooden horse).

It might be an inevitable part of getting older, but I can't help but think games are getting dumber, not smarter, as a rule.  YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG DIRECTION.

(re the same sex relationship stuff which tends to come up with Bioware, I'm completely pro that.  And thinking about it, even though there was a bi-character in BG2, I don't think you could romance him. It's still a little bit sad that should seem controversial or new, mind).


The obligatory Bioware character types:

http://www.cracked.com/funny-3872-bioware/

[Lyn Farel]

Bioware = fast food RPG these days tbh. A bit like these blockbuster B series.

If I want a deep story in a RPG I tend to go look elsewhere, especially in Obsidian/Chris Avelone's games that often mirror bioware gameplay (sadly, less well polished) with a really good story and characters.

[Jace]

I enjoyed ME2 & 3 very much. I have yet to finish ME1.

[Mizhara]

For its time, ME1 was staggeringly good. ME2 kept up the high quality and so did ME3 (for the most part, some bits were very weird) all the way up to the giant turd at the end. They were very high quality and enjoyable games as far as I'm concerned and Bioware certainly earned their praise until they shat on the game and then proceeded to shit on their fans when they didn't gobble it up and ask for seconds.

[Jace]

Meh, I was one of those that did not mind the ending to ME3.

Edit: I tend to view many of these sort of 'outrages' as bandwagoning. I know many people that played it and did not have much to say until they heard others going off about it and then suddenly they agreed they were also persecuted.

[Mizhara]

Someone was persecuted?

[Jace]

Someone was persecuted?

The attitudes of fans when they are upset often resembles some sort of persecution complex, in my opinion. That's all I meant by the comment.

[Mizhara]

I saw it more as an entitlement issue. As paying customers they were certainly entitled to criticize the product they got, but both sides took that word and took it to extremes. I never got the feeling it was a persecution issue, though. I think it just took a lot of people by surprise that the way communication has become, there's no buffer between the creators and consumers of a product and Bioware couldn't handle that when it turned out they failed to deliver on their hype.

[Kala]

So here's...someone's demands about what game writing should look like.  Cannot speak for the source, as just saw it on twitter:



and here's, conversely, RPS talking about objectivity in games writing:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/09/15/editorial-some-subjective-thoughts-on-objectivity/

[Jace]

@Miz

Entitlement is often associated with persecution complexes, in my experience. I am not saying that anyone was actually persecuted, obviously - just that fans sometimes react that way. As if they were intentionally thrown on the gears by the devs, that their love and devotion is targeted, bla bla.

My opinion on entitlement is pretty straightforward: fans are entitled to that which they purchase. If you buy the game, congratulations you are entitled to one copy of the game that the developers decided to create. Nothing more, nothing less. In the same vein, developers are not entitled to have any fans. They are entitled to make their product and offer it to fans. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mizhara]

I think there's a great bit more to it than that, Jace. Both the devs and the consumers are entitled to a great many things, among them the ability to complain if they consider the product to fall short of what was advertised or expected. Of course, the developers are entitled to entirely ignore that if they so choose, but then the consumers are entitled to strike that company off the list of potential future purchases, etc etc. Entitled is a word I really see used very poorly in these issues as almost without fail it's used as an insult against those who complain about the product they purchased. Yes, we are in fact entitled to a whole lot of things. This should not come as a surprise.

@Kala, I think your first thing disappeared for some reason. As for the RPS article, I try to avoid giving them clicks these days.

[Kala]

It did? Bah, I can see it on my screen 

It reads:

a) authors CAN befriend or give and recieve financial support to and from devs, but they MUST make this information readily available to the public

b) authors CAn publish pieces about these devs and their games, but they MUST explicitly state their relation at the beginning of the published piece, in clearly visible bold lettering and unambiguous wording.

c) authors SHOULD consider recusing themselves from that subject, and they MUST publicly state their reasons for doing so.

d) authors CAN publish opinion pieces, but these MUST be explicitly differentiated as such from facts and news reports, in clearly visible bold lettering and unambiguous wording.

e) authors MUST accompany any claims made each with appropriate proof, citations, and sources

f) the audience HAS EQUAL RIGHTS to voice their opinion, in agreement, dissent or otherwise, and an avenue for dialog MUST be assured and provided, and CANNOT be denied by it by banning, blocking, censoring, deleting, or otherwise; ONLY behaviour that directly endangers someone or is otherwise illegal should be restricted, and reported to law enforcement authorities, REGARDLESS of the party responsible for it.

g) reviews describing the mechanics, presentation, and performance or such of a game or other product, MUST be kept seperate from analyses and other opinion pieces, authors SHOULD consider ensuring to have already provided the first before tackling the latter.

Ehhh...the RPS thing is a bit long to copy pasta really, but tl;dr - shits subjective, yo.

[Vizage]

I think it's pretty hard to call anything you just listed off as entitlements. Entitlements to me imply they have been somehow earned or purchased.

What you seem to be referring to are simple freedoms. Consumer and Producer freedoms that are universal across our economy.

I'm only highlighting this because there is inherent  baggage that comes with words like entitlement that I don't think actually apply to fans who were upset by ME3's ending. (I was not one of them, I loved ME3's ending but I'm also one of those whack O's who liked Bioshock Infinite, and understood Inception the first time I watched it.  So yeah.)

[Jace]

I think there's a great bit more to it than that, Jace. Both the devs and the consumers are entitled to a great many things, among them the ability to complain if they consider the product to fall short of what was advertised or expected. Of course, the developers are entitled to entirely ignore that if they so choose, but then the consumers are entitled to strike that company off the list of potential future purchases, etc etc. Entitled is a word I really see used very poorly in these issues as almost without fail it's used as an insult against those who complain about the product they purchased. Yes, we are in fact entitled to a whole lot of things. This should not come as a surprise.

@Kala, I think your first thing disappeared for some reason. As for the RPS article, I try to avoid giving them clicks these days.

I think my post was eaten.

Yes, it does come down to usage of the word. I think of it as relating to 'legal right' in the way that dictionaries define it, not how it is commonly used. To me, it is mostly a misnomer for it to be used whatsoever in gaming discussions.

[Mizhara]

@Kala, thank you. I must say I loved every single point in that list. It's a great recipe for journalism I'd read with glee, whether I agreed with the content or not. Bias, sponsorships, opinion pieces etc etc are just fine with me as long as there's the transparency making that clear.

@Vizage, you have a point, but I think my point still stands in regards to the ME3 debacle. The word was quite demonstrably used as an insult and an attempt to just dismiss the quite legitimate complaints people had. Complaining about the product was somehow seen as overstepping the bounds of what you could do as a consumer. That's frankly a bit scary as attitudes go.

@Jace, you are quite right. I'm using the word wrong, now that I'm looking at it again but in my defense I think it's still a better use of the word than how it was used during the debacle.

I liked Bosh'tet Infinite too, and Inception was frankly simple as a concept as far as I saw it. I could never really agree with those who claimed Bazinga Infinite was the best FPS ever made and the best story ever told, as I found both to be eeeeh decent enough, but the complaints leveled at the game were strange at best.