Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lyn Farel]

PF wise, Titans and Rorquals  have cloning facilities. And even if CONCORD/empires could find a way to kill us all, would they be that stupid? Capsuleers are the only thing standing between them and Sansha's Nation.   

Why do capsuleer use PLEX and pay their licences if capsuleers have the means to emancipate themselves just like that ? But that's probably one of those many cases where ingame gameplay forced into shaky IC explanations by CCP doesn't match quite well with PF logic itself.

For Sansha Nation, I forgot that one. That's another good point.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Lol. The rage coming from not only the affected alliance, but also the entire player base if CCP blatantly cheated like that would dwarf th t20 scandal

Oh yeah, none of this would work in the context of EVE being a game which people pay to take part in. I've been talking in a pure in-universe context.

But then, I think that gets to the core of my point: I think it's bad design if your storyline "choices" are forcing the only logical action for the NPCs to be something which can never be done.

Capsuleers are just as capable of locking down ships using electronic warfare as well

I wasn't talking about electronic warfare here - I was talking about CONCORD going in and disabling systems or abilities in the capsuleer neocom and vessel by remote control. They don't need to hack their way in, because they've already got back doors (or, more accurately, a 2nd front door) written into everything.

[Sunfang]

I think it's bad design if your storyline "choices" are forcing the only logical action for the NPCs to be something which can never be done.

Point taken. I honestly think that a diplomatic approach would be a more appropriate way to deal with the empires rather than all out conflict. After all capsuleers came about to help the empires expand, yet in our success we outshine them in many ways. We protect them from outside threats, we fight their wars for them, we stimulate their economies with resources and tax and our influence reaches into far out parts of the galaxy to dangerous for non-capsuleers to go. Such is their dependence on us that they can effectively be seen as sub factions of an Empyrean Empire and a well placed diplomatic threat should remind them of that.

As for CONCORD and their illuminati aspirations, You make a good point considering BPO's are not created by players. I tend to think that the process of research and invention would be able to spot these "2nd front doors" and remove them. Lore wise, I also recall reading something about the way gates operate and communicate with each other having something to do with local chat and, my guess is, the neocom and it's ability to be maintained over vast intergalactic distances. Once capsuleer's are able to create their own stargates, we should have a nice lore friendly way to explain away CONCORDS control of the neocom.

An lets not forget The battle of Mekhios showing that CONCORD isn't immune from being shut down.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Mekhios was done by an NPC navy, which are not bound by the restrictions that we capsuleers are.

The source about CONCORD maintaining backdoors in all capsuleer equipment and being able to shut us down entirely at will is an extended conversation with a fiction dev a while back, although some of it can be seen reflected other established PF (for instance, CONCORD shutting off the drone region to only vessels they want to get through).

Agree with what you say about diplomacy, though. Unfortunately, that would require a degree of subtlety I'm not sure CCP has anymore.

[Sunfang]

How much emergent game play do you think it would take to make up for CCP's lack of subtlety?

[Esna Pitoojee]

How much emergent game play do you think it would take to make up for CCP's lack of subtlety?

I've not answered this immediately, because I wanted to think it over a bit and not give a snap answer.

The tl;dr answer: "To much."

Long version:

In order for players to make up for CCP's lack of subtlety, they would need to do some things that the playerbase right now is not inclined one bit towards even considering. They would need to choose to act as though they are existing in a fictional world, rather than a game. This doesn't mean all of nullsec needs to go out and make up backstories and have super-strict IC/OOC separation, but rather that they should recognize the existence of NPCs as something more than things you kill for bounties and mission rewards.

Perhaps the core of what I am trying to say is this: They would need to recognize the existence of fictional consequences for their actions, both good and bad, even if there are none in game mechanics. While CCP has been pushing the "do whatever you want to do, no restrictions" line for a while now, this is not realistically how the Big4/CONCORD would handle a force like capsuleers; it's a great line for a pure sandbox, but not for an RPG - even an MMORPG. As a result of this, CCP has been loath for years to apply any real penalties to player actions; during the Incursion events, the penalties applied to some pro-Sansha loyalist players were actually reversed against the wishes of said players.

In order to make up for CCP's utter lack of subtlety, the players would have to recognize consequences where there are none. That's not going to happen, though, because EVE has (quite rightfully) fomented a "win at all costs" mindset. If doing something has no immediate, tangible benefit the playerbase cannot be relied on to do it. Without some very real penalties, why should you hold back from certain actions? Without some very real benefits, why accept the cost of limiting yourself?

To put that in more setting-relevant terms: Without CONCORD actually cracking down on those who openly flaunt the rules, why bother treating them as an equal power? Without the Big4 rewarding those who stay loyal to them, why not run off to join the far-more-successful rulebreakers?

[Morwen Lagann]

during the Incursion events, the penalties applied to some pro-Sansha loyalist players were actually reversed against the wishes of said players.

The rage from Koro when his standings got fixed could be felt from hundreds of miles away. No joke.

[Graelyn]

Yah, that was probably the moment where the last of my hope in CCP finally doused. Or the beginning of the end anyway.

[Sunfang]

Interesting argument

I guess it's more of a player lore vs Eve lore scenario then. Seeing as how NPC's are just a game mechanic, it would be players who partake in debate / gunboat diplomacy on the legitimacy of the subject.

[Jace]

The fundamental problem with the Empyrean concept is that it relies too much on players. Despite all of the problems with CCP over the years, they have motivation to actually do something (regardless of how well, how often, or how responsibly) because this is a business. Players just do not have the motivation, coordination, or in many cases the ability to contribute long term meaningful content that they have to generate and instigate themselves. Something as comprehensive and extensive as an Empyrean faction would require far more dedicated players than actually exist.