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[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

A thought.

There seems to be a notion that Hamas are terrorists and therefore not to be spoken to.

However at least two countries that are currently part of the community of nations were formed, in part, because of terrorism committed by the founders of those countries. I don't see anyone suddenly refusing to speak to the Republic of Ireland because of the IRA campaigns following the Easter uprising.

And Israel gets a free pass on the Irgun and the Stern gang. Oh, and shooting up a US warship back in the day. Well, ok, they paid compensation for the ship.

Killing terrorists and the people around them tends to just get you more terrorists. Talking to them gets you ex-terrorists, eventually, because people only resort to terrorism when they are desperate. At least the usual kind.

Sometimes it seems that conventional armed forces use terrorism because they can.

[V. Gesakaarin]

I also doubt that in a scenario in which the U.S was no longer as energy dependent on all that Saudi oil there would be much care if Israel were to push the the current populace of Gaza and the West Bank into the Sinai and Jordan.

The U.S. is a net energy exporter. We aren't all that dependent on Saudi oil.

Being a net energy exporter in terms of natural gas doesn't mean a dependence exists for heavier hydrocarbon imports not only for the U.S but also for Europe. Saudi Arabia as with a lot of Arab states remain opposed to the existence of Israel and have the leverage that they'll just send their oil tankers elsewhere if they feel there isn't some actions taken when Israel does things like invade Gaza.

I just remain unconvinced that I'd see as much, if any, condemnation from the U.S or Europe towards Israel if Saudi/Gulf States oil wasn't of such critical importance for domestic energy supplies in the West.

As for Israel itself, condemnation for civilian casualties abroad matters little because irrespective of whether or not 1000, 2000, 5000, or 10,000 Palestinian civilians die nothing will change: their Arab neighbours would still love nothing more to see them gone and any UN resolution regarding war crimes will get the veto on the Security Council from the U.S. Really, they've got nothing to lose.

[Esna Pitoojee]

A thought.

There seems to be a notion that Hamas are terrorists and therefore not to be spoken to.

However at least two countries that are currently part of the community of nations were formed, in part, because of terrorism committed by the founders of those countries. I don't see anyone suddenly refusing to speak to the Republic of Ireland because of the IRA campaigns following the Easter uprising.

At least in my view, this opinion has much less to do with Hamas "being a terrorist organization" than that the talks with Hamas fail to get any real results out of them. There have been... what? At least 4 bilateral ceasefires during this latest round of fighting that were ended prematurely by attacks on Israel or Israeli forces? To say nothing of the incessant rocket fire during the "lull" in the fighting preceding this conflict, or the deeper cultural issues.

And Israel gets a free pass on the Irgun and the Stern gang. Oh, and shooting up a US warship back in the day. Well, ok, they paid compensation for the ship.

Actually, they got anything but a free pass. For the first decade or so of its existence, Israel was watched very carefully by many Western powers. The difference was, both those groups were dissolved shortly after the formation of the State of Israel; the following decades proved that Israel could generally be relied on not start stuff with its neighbors for no reason at all.

Hamas, in contrast, has ruled the Gaza Strip for over eight years now, and they're still on with the aggressive rhetoric and constant provocation.

[Vikarion]

As for Israel itself, condemnation for civilian casualties abroad matters little because irrespective of whether or not 1000, 2000, 5000, or 10,000 Palestinian civilians die nothing will change: their Arab neighbours would still love nothing more to see them gone and any UN resolution regarding war crimes will get the veto on the Security Council from the U.S. Really, they've got nothing to lose.

You're not being cynical enough. Plenty of Israel's neighbors don't want them gone for precisely the reason that Israel is a focus for hatred, as opposed to the leaders of said neighbors.

[V. Gesakaarin]

As for Israel itself, condemnation for civilian casualties abroad matters little because irrespective of whether or not 1000, 2000, 5000, or 10,000 Palestinian civilians die nothing will change: their Arab neighbours would still love nothing more to see them gone and any UN resolution regarding war crimes will get the veto on the Security Council from the U.S. Really, they've got nothing to lose.

You're not being cynical enough. Plenty of Israel's neighbors don't want them gone for precisely the reason that Israel is a focus for hatred, as opposed to the leaders of said neighbors.

I was talking about the populace in general of Israel's neighbours, not their regimes that find Israel an often convenient diversion, yes. 

[scagga]

Looks like things have heated up again.

There have been... what? At least 4 bilateral ceasefires during this latest round of fighting that were ended prematurely by attacks on Israel or Israeli forces? To say nothing of the incessant rocket fire during the "lull" in the fighting preceding this conflict, or the deeper cultural issues.

I'm not sure about how many bilateral ceasefires there have been, but I think it is factually incorrect to say each ceasefire ends due to rocket fire.  There is evidence to the contrary.

I do recall Israel publicly stating that it would continue to attack Hamas tunnels regardless of whether a ceasefire was in place.  I would quote one article that discussed this:

(Link to the main article: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/deceptions-revealed-kidnapped.html)

Misleading too was the general agreement that, in attacking a group of soldiers in Rafah and seizing Goldin, Hamas had violated the first moments of a 72-hour humanitarian ceasefire.

The Washington Post reported on the circumstances as a Hamas suicide bomber emerged from a tunnel to explode his vest, killing two soldiers, and Goldin was pulled into the shaft. “On Friday morning, Israeli troops were in the southern Gaza Strip preparing to destroy a Hamas tunnel, said Israeli military officials. Suddenly, Palestinian militants emerged from a shaft.”

CBS reporter Charlie D’Agata parroted the same Israeli briefings, also inadvertently exposing the central deceit. The soldier was “suspected of being kidnapped during an operation to clear tunnels – crucially, [officials] say, this happened after the ceasefire was supposed to take place.”

So if a ceasefire was in place, what were Goldin and his comrades doing detonating tunnels, tunnels in which Israel says Hamas is hiding? Were Hamas fighters supposed to simply wait to be entombed in their bunkers during the pause in hostilities? Or was Israel the one violating the ceasefire?

And then there was the explosion of military fury as Israel realised its soldier was missing. Israeli correspondents have admitted that the notorious “Hannibal procedure” was invoked: the use of all means to stop a soldier being taken alive, including killing him. The rationale is to prevent the enemy gaining a psychological advantage in negotiations.

The unleashing of massive firepower appeared designed to ensure Goldin and his captors never made it out of their tunnel, but in the process Israel killed dozens of Palestinians.

It was another illustration of Israel’s absolute disregard for the safety of civilians. At least three-quarters of the more than 1,700 Palestinians killed so far are non-combatants, while almost all Israeli casualties have been soldiers. This has been a pattern in all Israel’s recent confrontations.

[scagga]

Hamas, in contrast, has ruled the Gaza Strip for over eight years now, and they're still on with the aggressive rhetoric and constant provocation.

Israel initiated an illegal blockade on Gaza in 2006 because they did not like the result of a free election.  We scratch our heads to wonder why violence ensued.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006%E2%80%932007_economic_sanctions_against_the_Palestinian_National_Authority

If Israel elects hardliners that believe that no Palestinian state should exist, that is fine in your view, and sanctions due to these views would be unjustified.  This is a government that uses violence, collective punishment and continually increasing occupation as tools to meet its goals.

[scagga]

Rockets are just a symptom of an underlying pervasive problem that Israel continues to perpetuate.

The Norwegian Doctor Mads Gilbert expresses the idea quite simply in the video linked below.

No siege = No tunnels

No occupation = No Rockets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOk_KaaXc9E

[Mizhara]

I tried getting my employer to let me shift a few work weeks around so I could join Mads Gilbert in Gaza. The response was that if I went there I would not have a job afterwards. I was inches away from going to collect unemployment, but I have people and animals relying on my paycheck so to my chagrin I stayed where I am.

While HAMAS has serious issues, including rhetoric including the extermination of Jews and other questionable methods, the occupation simply overshadows it all. The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, the complete and utter disregard for Palestinian welfare and rights... how exactly do you expect them to respond? What would we do if we were treated like this? Had our land, our resources, our water, our people taken and repressed? I would be among the first to fight with tooth and nail against the occupants. Against the hate. Against the idea that Israel is chosen by God and deserves to take away everything that is mine. Now consider that they bomb UN Schools filled with refugees. UN Schools the UN commanders gave Israel forces notice of seventeen times. They bomb markets. They bomb civilian homes and families.

Submit or die. No recognition of human rights or the Geneva Convention.

The biggest miracle here is that the entirety of the Palestinian population haven't turned to the extremist side. I know I would have.