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[Esna Pitoojee]

No, Eve doesn't give me all the options. I can't do independent research. I can't crash entire economies with all my space cash. I can't ram a supercapital into a station. I can't do a lot of things in EVE I'd like to.

*snipping* this bit because I'd like to respond to it directly: In the second golden age of Live Events (Incursions + Arek'Jalaan) we did get to do this.

Crash a supercapital into a station? Not exactly, but on player suggestion we had an entire event arc with CCP actors involved regarding crashing a freighter into a wormhole. It happened, in space, with explosions, and is a definite part of the larger Incursion story.

Independent research? Oof, where do I begin? Arek'Jalaan had piles of this, some of which reached potentially metagaming levels in its methods but was fun nonetheless.

You know what the best thing about this was? We had lots of people involved in this. I don't want to call them 'non-RPers' because they really were taking the extra step to RP as a person in the universe, but they certainly weren't what I'd call 'traditional RPers'. The guy who crashed the freighter into a wormhole? Not a traditional RPer. The wormholers submitting piles of research to Arek'Jalaan? Definitely not traditional RPers.

But they took the time to take those few extra steps and instead of merely trying to exert their influence over the game world as so many players do, they tried to work within the game world. In return, they were acknowledge - and, yes, at times told 'no'. But it was a kind of interaction I've really only rarely seen, and it was glorious.

[Lyn Farel]

<snip>
The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.

Congratulations, I think you just made me take a SAN check.

I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.

Players in EVE are a good example of Sturgeon's Law. A lot of them are a waste of good life support.

I laughed.

Couldn't have said it better. 

Who knows, maybe some capsuleers also scream in utter terror and despair that the day they got those pod implants was the day they began their nihilistic adventure without the warm and fuzzy feeling one gets from the cultural values they practically left behind.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective and which aspects of the lore and background appeals. Sure, if what you want is to roleplay a human being that's part of a society bigger than themselves or whatever, then yeah it's probably disappointing the direction EVE appears to be headed. Personally, I have no issues exploring my character as capsuleer infomorph where the background fiction is just that, the background of who they were but not who they are now depending on what they do in-game.

It's just a space adventure for me at the end of the day, that I play with others roleplayer or not. That and the thematic element of trying to explore a capsuleer as a capsuleer that struggles to make sense of the world they now inhabit, the life they lead, and find their own meaning and value in an existence that can be cruel, harsh, indifferent, and uncompromising, has been a rewarding experience.

So I guess just for myself, I don't really have the need or expectation for CCP to provide the content and interactions because other players already do that for me on different levels

I don't necessarily see a dichotomy between capsuleers and mortals/humans. What got me interested in Eve lore was the relationship of capsuleers towards the mortal world and the rest of the NPC lore universe. There was an interesting contrast to be played with a lot of themes to be brought between demigods and the high sec empires of mortals, and the lore in general (aka, what is not player generated in null). There is not much interesting to me in a world populated by demi gods when everyone is a demigod. It would be like playing Vampire the Masquerade populated only with Vampires... How boring.

And that, without even counting on Sturgeon's law. I considered and still consider that player generated lore in nullsec and stuff like that by organisations called xxXDeathXxx or goonswarm or BoB revolving around "this territory belongs to me, and lo and behold, I disbanded your alliance like the ebil traitor I am" is part of Sturgeon's law. Never found it really attractive... Compare that to Black Mountain or Federal elections, or else... There is not much doubt which one I will choose.

The same way I never really found attractive yellow coloured text in local attractive, as well as mass live events. What was interesting was all what was happening around all that. News, RP shenanigans, etc.

[Joshua Foiritain]

Sorry folks, but CCP has been choking out the numbers of RPers and Lore-interested players for half a decade or more.

I disagree that CCP has been choking the RP community. They have caused a significant shrinkage of RPers in the game both through lack of involvement and sheer incompetence when they do get involved but i don't think I've ever gotten the idea they've been actively trying to push them out.

Apart from that a reasonable amount of blame is to put with the RP community itself as well. RPers tend to be rather defensive and on many occasions elitist/condescending to regular players which only expands the gap between regular players and RPers and reduces the influx of new blood into the RP community.

Regular players don't look at the RP community and go 'i want to get involved in that', their initial response is usually less positive. CCP events had the advantage of introducing them to the concept of role-playing without requiring any real involvement on their part which was an easy way for regular players to slowly slip into it. With these events gone, its up to the RP community itself to attract people towards role-playing or accept that its numbers will continue to shrink.

Also i think there's between 200 and 300 RPers/Lore Interested people left in eve, 100 strikes me as somewhat low though obviously the amount is at an all-time low regardless of its actual number.

[Elmund Egivand]

I fail to see what isn't immersive about CCP deciding to head down the path of, "The people of New Eden will carry on doing what they do irrespective of what you as a player or character may think, say, or do."

But all the trailers say they are all scared of us and how super scary we are! quaking in their boots! 

It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF.  All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.

Would almost prefer an 'Factions gang up on all capsuleers' and banish us ala Sansha storyline - banished to whatever on other side of new stargates.

Just make sure we also got the option of coming back to murder-death-kill them in return, via player-run Incursions. Preferably in a scale that would make Sansha envious.

[Samira Kernher]

Apart from that a reasonable amount of blame is to put with the RP community itself as well. RPers tend to be rather defensive and on many occasions elitist/condescending to regular players which only expands the gap between regular players and RPers and reduces the influx of new blood into the RP community.

This. RPers are frequently their own worst enemy.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Apart from that a reasonable amount of blame is to put with the RP community itself as well. RPers tend to be rather defensive and on many occasions elitist/condescending to regular players which only expands the gap between regular players and RPers and reduces the influx of new blood into the RP community.

This. RPers are frequently their own worst enemy.

Humans in general are their own worst enemy.

[Samira Kernher]

Word.

[V. Gesakaarin]

It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF.  All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.

I don't think it's much of a dissonance if a capsuleer is comparatively powerful to the average person and part of an elite club yet also deliberately constrained and regulated in that power by CONCORD. That's part of the divorce I was talking about between the CONCORD regulated world of empyreans and the rest of humanity that CONCORD desires to reduce their impact upon. Hence, why there's no issue for me having the player driven world we play in, and the CCP driven world of the different factions happening in the background to it with only moments of overlap and intersection. It makes sense to me.

*snipping* this bit because I'd like to respond to it directly: In the second golden age of Live Events (Incursions + Arek'Jalaan) we did get to do this.

Crash a supercapital into a station? Not exactly, but on player suggestion we had an entire event arc with CCP actors involved regarding crashing a freighter into a wormhole. It happened, in space, with explosions, and is a definite part of the larger Incursion story.

Independent research? Oof, where do I begin? Arek'Jalaan had piles of this, some of which reached potentially metagaming levels in its methods but was fun nonetheless.

You know what the best thing about this was? We had lots of people involved in this. I don't want to call them 'non-RPers' because they really were taking the extra step to RP as a person in the universe, but they certainly weren't what I'd call 'traditional RPers'. The guy who crashed the freighter into a wormhole? Not a traditional RPer. The wormholers submitting piles of research to Arek'Jalaan? Definitely not traditional RPers.

But they took the time to take those few extra steps and instead of merely trying to exert their influence over the game world as so many players do, they tried to work within the game world. In return, they were acknowledge - and, yes, at times told 'no'. But it was a kind of interaction I've really only rarely seen, and it was glorious.

I'm sure both the incursions and arek'jaalan were interesting, I just never personally viewed Live Events as something required or essential in order to RP or immerse myself in the game world.

And that, without even counting on Sturgeon's law. I considered and still consider that player generated lore in nullsec and stuff like that by organisations called xxXDeathXxx or goonswarm or BoB revolving around "this territory belongs to me, and lo and behold, I disbanded your alliance like the ebil traitor I am" is part of Sturgeon's law. Never found it really attractive... Compare that to Black Mountain or Federal elections, or else... There is not much doubt which one I will choose.

Well, a lot of violent areas in the world often also have a bunch of groups with a whole lot of long names and acronyms which is about what nullsec amounts to. However since, you brought up Black Mountain and that's a story then I suppose to me RP for you is writing stories and not the interactions that take place with other players.

[Silas Vitalia]

It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF.  All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.

I don't think it's much of a dissonance if a capsuleer is comparatively powerful to the average person and part of an elite club yet also deliberately constrained and regulated in that power by CONCORD. That's part of the divorce I was talking about between the CONCORD regulated world of empyreans and the rest of humanity that CONCORD desires to reduce their impact upon. Hence, why there's no issue for me having the player driven world we play in, and the CCP driven world of the different factions happening in the background to it with only moments of overlap and intersection. It makes sense to me.

But the thing is there's been an incredibly amount of PF swing with capsuleers.  Sometimes they are demi-gods and the npc factions are super scared of them (recent trailers, lots of the fiction).  And then other times nothing we do matters to anyone we are in a little bubble that doesn't effect anything ever.  So which is it?

[V. Gesakaarin]

It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF.  All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.

I don't think it's much of a dissonance if a capsuleer is comparatively powerful to the average person and part of an elite club yet also deliberately constrained and regulated in that power by CONCORD. That's part of the divorce I was talking about between the CONCORD regulated world of empyreans and the rest of humanity that CONCORD desires to reduce their impact upon. Hence, why there's no issue for me having the player driven world we play in, and the CCP driven world of the different factions happening in the background to it with only moments of overlap and intersection. It makes sense to me.

But the thing is there's been an incredibly amount of PF swing with capsuleers.  Sometimes they are demi-gods and the npc factions are super scared of them (recent trailers, lots of the fiction).  And then other times nothing we do matters to anyone we are in a little bubble that doesn't effect anything ever.  So which is it?

Achilles was a pretty badass demi-god hero until he got stabbed in the heel. As for how I personally contextualize it, I just have the points switched around: Capsuleers/empyreans live in a gilded cage managed and controlled by CONCORD and the fear the factions have is that they will break free from that control.

Anyway, for myself I treat the lore background and the factions a lot like those "filler" episodes in a series that provide extra information or flashbacks or whatever. Nice to have and to know but not essential if the interest is in the character dynamics which in EVE is what I do in the game with other people.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Then, it doesn't matter whether there's the Amarr or some other entity which you 'fill the gaps' with. But then, it doesn't really matter what the background is at all.

Of course, by that reasoning holes and contradictions in PF don't matter.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Then, it doesn't matter whether there's the Amarr or some other entity which you 'fill the gaps' with. But then, it doesn't really matter what the background is at all.

Of course, by that reasoning holes and contradictions in PF don't matter.

Well I suppose it's like watching a play and whether you're focused on the background painting and whether the architecture presented is in fact a realistic reflection of 16th century venice as the script says or if you're more intent on delivering your lines, impromptu or not, for me.

Sure the background serves a purpose, and in EVE I think that's to add some flavour and texture to what's occurring but I'm also realistic in the fact that at the present day there's no real way to deliver some form of actual mutual consequence that's dynamic. FW and Incursions aren't dynamic because we're not playing EVE in the Matrix or something. I mean even when you play a factional loyalist of any variety you have to pretend that there's real consequence to what you do, when really there isn't.

So yes, the paradigm where you have one world with capsuleers/empyreans that's dynamic due to it being defined by players and the background world that can be dynamic by virtue of a writing staff that can make things develop without player input seems better to me than being unrealistic in my expectations in having them merged when with current technology all you'd end up with is another variation of FW or Incursions that aren't dynamic at all.

[Silas Vitalia]

Sure the background serves a purpose, and in EVE I think that's to add some flavour and texture to what's occurring but I'm also realistic in the fact that at the present day there's no real way to deliver some form of actual mutual consequence that's dynamic. FW and Incursions aren't dynamic because we're not playing EVE in the Matrix or something. I mean even when you play a factional loyalist of any variety you have to pretend that there's real consequence to what you do, when really there isn't.

So yes, the paradigm where you have one world with capsuleers/empyreans that's dynamic due to it being defined by players and the background world that can be dynamic by virtue of a writing staff that can make things develop without player input seems better to me than being unrealistic in my expectations in having them merged when with current technology all you'd end up with is another variation of FW or Incursions that aren't dynamic at all.

Valid approach no doubt.

My issue/point of the thread would be that that close connection between the 'background' game world and the players did exist at one point, and people built their experiences around that. 

Then a wall was built up between them. People like you have figured out how to do just fine without it, but plenty of others are feeling a bit miffed dedicating their fictional alter egos to causes or groups that have much to do with a background fiction and factions, that have just been told will no longer have anything to do with them. 

So instead of having one transhumanist Star Fraction pro capsuleer group, CCP are sort of saying 'that's all of you now!'

[V. Gesakaarin]

My issue/point of the thread would be that that close connection between the 'background' game world and the players did exist at one point, and people built their experiences around that. 

Then a wall was built up between them. People like you have figured out how to do just fine without it, but plenty of others are feeling a bit miffed dedicating their fictional alter egos to causes or groups that have much to do with a background fiction and factions, that have just been told will no longer have anything to do with them. 

So instead of having one transhumanist Star Fraction pro capsuleer group, CCP are sort of saying 'that's all of you now!'

Well I think the question for me is to the degree to which you consider your own roleplay dependent upon NPC/Dev/CCP actions. However, while my characters are indeed transhuman capsuleers in general and infomorphs in particular that does not mean they are solely defined as such, nor are they defined to me solely on the basis of being, "Pro-something" or "Loyalists" to a certain faction.

Whilst it might be unfortunate that things have/will change to less player-NPC interaction or intersections, that does not change the fact that it does feel like there are two options to me right now. One is to insist upon it and likely become disillusioned and disappointed awaiting the arrival of CCP Godot to deliver it. The second is to decouple personal or organizational RP into your own framework and lessen the expectations of CCP to provide the toys to play in the EVE sandbox as regards RP.

[Samira Kernher]

Tbh, I think adding static gameplay systems revolving around the factions was far worse for faction-oriented players than reducing news updates/increasing capsuleer power (which we don't know if that's what they're doing, as it could be as Svetlana theorizes and moving back to low key news and away from big sweeping storylines, which is a positive).

There is something to be said for remaining loyal to a faction and fighting to the bitter end as that faction slowly loses its grip on its territory. This is something that would be fun for RP, as it is a conflict and spurs character development. There is no need for the empires to always remain stable forces in the universe, or that their only enemies should be each other.