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[Silas Vitalia]

This had me in stitches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0

"This is the face of a man who fast-forwards through the servant parts of Downton Abbey"



Anyway interesting stuff.  I'm sure there are plenty of rational reasons why a 'no' vote might be better in the end, but sometimes the irrational self-determination bug gets people motivated.

From the outside it looks like Scotland doesn't have much of a say with how its own resources are being spent by London?

The once Scottish guy I know from EVE was telling me how he'd been waiting for this his whole life, sounds like it's a big deal to a lot of people either way

[kalaratiri]

I have now been living in Aberdeen for just under two weeks. Most of the people I know who are voting, are voting 'no'. However, the city as a whole appears to have more 'yes' voters.

Neither side is covering themselves with glory. One friend of mine got his window smashed for putting a 'no thanks' poster up. Another got head butted in a bar for saying he was voting 'yes'.

The younger the person is, the more likely they are to vote no (from my experience). The further south the person is, the more likely they are to vote no (from the people I talk to). Aberdeen is both northern, and full of oil money so they don't see themselves as at risk from independence.

I walk around trying to look Scandinavian with my long hair and beard. I worry that my (incredibly) English accent might get me some uncomfortable attention. There have been multiple hundreds of people gathering in the square outside my building for "vote yes" rallies, and there are currently barriers and policemen set up around anything that could be climbed upon or smashed.

Tonight is going to be fun 

[Jace]

I do not live in the area and have not properly studied the situation fully yet so I will not vote in the poll, but as a political science academic I just want to say that this could change everything. There are EU questions and situations this would bring up that have never happened before. My department is waiting with baited breath, articles are being written with multiple versions to be sent out to academic journals, television stations are getting professors on call for talk shows. For the field, this could be big.

[Louella Dougans]

the ballot papers are tissue thin, you can see how people voted, even when they're folded over.

[Ibrahim Tash-Murkon]

The English get all the good ballot paper.

[Louella Dougans]

if there is a yes result, and scotland goes into the EU, then the EU will be tied up in argument for years if not decades, as other regions try for independence. It means the treaties and other stuff, which require unanimous agreement of all member nations, would have to be revised, to a majority agreement. Because having umpteen member nations means umpteen possibilities for vetoes, and for demands for concessions and special treatments. Concessions and special treatments mean why even bother with an EU at all ? what is the point of an EU regulation if 95% of the member nations are exempt from it ?

It means a reduction in social welfare, and less opportunities for people from poorer regions. E.g. look at say, North/South Italy. iirc, Berlusconi or one of his associates wants some bit of n.Italy, i think round Milan, to be independent from south Italy, which has a lot of social problems (immigrants, organised crime, organised criminal immigrants). they want Milan to be independent, so Milan taxes don't get spent on "the wrong kind of people". that  makes s.Italy less able to afford to deal with the problems, and as such the EU would have to become involved directly, because having society collapse would be a huge problem. So you'd have a bunch of the small prosperous regions, and they'd complain about having to contribute to the EU, because they see the EU as spending money on "the wrong kind of people". And those regions would have a veto power on EU action. So all those little regions with right wing governments, end up screwing over the entire rest of the EU, and we're looking at a reversal of decades of social progress, and the resultant political violence, which will screw everything up for decades.

the whole point of the EU is that nationalistic sentiment is to be curbed, because europe has had enough of european wars.


for the american posters, the member nation veto power would be like... take the US Senate. Now, imagine that instead of a majority of senators voting for something, it required unanimity, that every single senator had the ability to veto any piece of legislation. that's what the EU has at the moment, kind of.

[Silas Vitalia]

I wouldn't underestimate the latent desires of many Scots to give the proverbial finger to the Brits, no matter tomorrow's potential consequences.

There was an article here in the states (a pro-yes article mind you) saying that if the Independence movement here in the 1770s had taken a more rational look at the potential economic and social pitfalls of breaking away from Britain it wouldn't have happened, either.


Food for thought.

[Mizhara]

Same thing with us and the Danes. It wasn't the most stable and "safe" solution, but it wasn't exactly the worst decision we ever made.

[Lunarisse Aspenstar]

Being rather far removed from my Scottish and English (among others!) roots, I don't a stake in this, but as a student of history I found this article interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11102126/Scottish-referendum-Alone-Scotland-will-go-back-to-being-a-failed-state.html

[Louella Dougans]

Imperialist bastards...   

I agree... 

I was late for work again today, because of there being another roadblock by the Grenadier Guards. I saw some masked soldiers pulling four motorists from their vehicles and beating them, for wearing tartan. I considered this about average for the time of year.

When I got to my workplace, a facility in the shadow of one of the sniper towers, I found that there was a shortage of petrol for our tools, because our guy who gets petrol was arrested for possession of articles likely to be of use to terrorists, i.e. the jerrycans. Even though he had permits and everything. So we didn't do much work today.

Then on my way home, I was stopped by the soldiers and questioned. Fortunately for me, on account of my dark skin, caused by going outside in the sunlight, I don't look Celtic, so wasn't beaten or sexually abused.

Except none of that actually happened. Because Scotland isn't occupied, scottish people aren't oppressed, and this whole stupid nationalism thing is about people who think THOSE FUNNY LOOKING OTHER PEOPLE are to blame for everything.

[Karynn]

I hope they say yes and go for it.

I'm Welsh and I see Scotland as having an opportunity that we never had and will never have. Our country is completely subservient to England; it would be a shame to see Scotland end up like us.

Oh! Oh! If Scotland leave the UK, the Union Jack would need a makeover, and maybe, just maybe, they might actually consider representing Wales in the new design! \0/

[Lyn Farel]

Well, re reading my posts above it would seem that I am somewhat in favor of the no. Actually i'm far from having a clear opinion on the matter and i'm not even english or scot to begin with.

I think that independence is a great opportunity for them, mostly politically since it's the root of the problem : I was listening to a well versed and really composed yes militant this evening and the ideal was here, it was vibrant, even if well... idealistic. They seem to be extremely opposed politically to the central government, totally anti austerity (which I approve since i'm concerned too), and very pro EU to the contrary of England proper. I would be lying if I was not hoping to see them back into Europe a bit more than what the UK is these days. It's amusing to think that there is another referendum planned in a few years supposed to ask to all UK members if the UK should stay or leave the EU. They already think that without Scotland the UK would lose a lot of its EU supporters and such its independence could completely throw that other referendum in a radical direction and thus UK out of the EU altogether.

However i'm rather concerned for the scottish economy, and have to look honestly at how us latin countries would react to independentists, either Spain or France. Especially towards Catalonia currently, that is already rather autonomous, and then the Basque country (Navarre) or Corsica, where independentists are a smaller minority (but a terrorist one at times). Since our governments are totally different and centralized, that will never, never end well if such a thing were to happen. Especially in Spain since for France it's really nothing, just a few individuals, but still. Sometimes you just need a spark and... Contrary to Scotland, we don't need that here, really. Either for Catalonia because it's the same shit than for Northern Italy, people being too selfish to carry on with their southern bros, or either for Navarre/Corsica precisely because nobody out there want to be independent, just a few radical nutcases.

[Jace]

They already think that without Scotland the UK would lose a lot of its EU supporters and such its independence could completely throw that other referendum in a radical direction and thus UK out of the EU altogether.

This is another perspective that polisci folks are paying attention to. Scotland leaving would swing domestic politics severely in the UK, never mind all the details of Scotland and the EU.

[Ibrahim Tash-Murkon]

There are a myriad of economic conundrums which would face an independent Scotland. Frankly, even as someone opposed to dissolution of the union, I don't think they should matter all that much. The monetary conundrum will be tough whether they keep the pound or try and convert to a new currency (maybe the euro? keeping the pound or pegging a new currency to it would be terrible), the fiscal irresponsibility of putting too much stock in North Sea oil revenue is borderline criminal (those reserves are over half tapped out, slightly more than half is owned by the Norwegians, and of the remaining reserves some of it is in English waters anyway, that does not an economy make). All this gets piled on top of the dangerous precedence for other independence movements (just as easily could be called Balkanization movements).

I think it doesn't just make economic and political sense to maintain the union, I think generally England and Scotland (and Wales but maybe not Norther Ireland) are better off for being united (though the south really needs to change its tune on some issues when it comes to equality of importance on issues between the countries). However, in the end I fundamentally believe in the free determination of people, even if on many metrics I think the move is objectively bad the Scots have the right to make what I think are poor decisions. So, no matter the vote, I'll support their right to do whatever they choose to do.

[Silas Vitalia]

Imperialist bastards...   

I agree... 

I was late for work again today, because of there being another roadblock by the Grenadier Guards. I saw some masked soldiers pulling four motorists from their vehicles and beating them, for wearing tartan. I considered this about average for the time of year.

When I got to my workplace, a facility in the shadow of one of the sniper towers, I found that there was a shortage of petrol for our tools, because our guy who gets petrol was arrested for possession of articles likely to be of use to terrorists, i.e. the jerrycans. Even though he had permits and everything. So we didn't do much work today.

Then on my way home, I was stopped by the soldiers and questioned. Fortunately for me, on account of my dark skin, caused by going outside in the sunlight, I don't look Celtic, so wasn't beaten or sexually abused.

Except none of that actually happened. Because Scotland isn't occupied, scottish people aren't oppressed, and this whole stupid nationalism thing is about people who think THOSE FUNNY LOOKING OTHER PEOPLE are to blame for everything.

Nationalism isn't always stupid; sometimes those other people are horrible