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[Morwen Lagann]

Regarding the Source comment: I don't think it says anything at all here to point towards "softscanned" or "split-from-burn-scanned" cloning either way. It just says they will "lose much time in the gap between her backup's creation and her new cloning". 'Backup creation' doesn't mean any method here at all.

Exactly. The implication is solely that "Backup Clones Are a Thing," but no further than that - the way they're made is left open to interpretation. Which, as usual, means that in the meantime until CCP decides to expound on it, it's up to us to decide on a personal basis whether we want to discard or keep the original sheet of paper that we're running through the Xerox, to borrow Samira's analogy.

Predictably, I'll be going with the "keep the original" path.

[Jace]

Yeah, I get the distinction. I had misread some of the technology stuff previously. Little of my arcs ever involve clone stuff, so it had never been that high priority for me to figure out for my characters. But I get the distinction folks are stating.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Frankly, I think that this deliberate ambiguity is a good thing. In my personal opinion, right now we don't need any more expounding on this particular subject; the practical parameters for RP are clear (backups are a thing, but they still require the bulky scanning device) while not yet stifling people who prefer to run in either direction with particulars.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

The last time this particular topic came up some people said they didn't like the idea of soft clones because they made the setting less grim.

I've always considered jump clones fairly firm proof that you can take a non-destructive scan. The idea that every time you jump clone the body you leave behind has to have a new brain installed makes very little sense to me, especially as the cyber stays intact.

However, consider this. If the body you left is still alive, then on returning to it you are overwriting the mind-state that was there when you left with the latest version. In effect you are murdering a previous iteration of yourself.

That's fairly grimdark all by itself.

[Morwen Lagann]

The last time this particular topic came up some people said they didn't like the idea of soft clones because they made the setting less grim.

I've always considered jump clones fairly firm proof that you can take a non-destructive scan. The idea that every time you jump clone the body you leave behind has to have a new brain installed makes very little sense to me, especially as the cyber stays intact.

However, consider this. If the body you left is still alive, then on returning to it you are overwriting the mind-state that was there when you left with the latest version. In effect you are murdering a previous iteration of yourself.

That's fairly grimdark all by itself.

CCP originally had stuff about soft-cloning (as typically defined by the playerbase) as being a Thing in the cloning and AD&D articles on the wiki. At some point they removed it and added some stuff about jump clones, saying a jump clone was essentially little more than a lethal hard scan. Their explanation for the implants sticking around? "Oh, we just pick them out of the head afterward and shove them into a fresh clone for when you come back."

Talk about fucking retarded - I'd buy that if we could pull implants out without destroying them and save them for later use.

I had always gone with JCs being a literal transfer and overwrite in RP prior to that. Since those tweaks to the wiki, though, I just never ever mention JCing, because fuck dealing with the herp-derp that that mess is.

[Bayushi Tamago]

As a curiosity, seeing as Bay tends to be doing more ground work than space work RP-wise, what is the ruling on black tech from the government etc?
I am not terribly familiar with what all counts as 'godmodding' beyond something like 'lol I dodged your bullet because [reasons]'
In this instance, routine backup implant that circumvents memory loss on death outside of pod.

[Samira Kernher]

In that case, I'd say a no go. It's the thing that makes DUST implants unique. Also, it fails to take into account that cloning so far either requires A) a fast but lethal hard scan or B ) an excruciatingly slow soft scan (and B is currently up in the air as far as canon goes).

A routine backup implant just negates all of that. Also, thematically, we're supposed to be vulnerable outside the pod. Whether permanent death or memory loss, being killed outside the pod is supposed to be a dangerous thing that we don't want to do.

Basically, if you want "perfect" out of pod cloning, then going DUST soldier rather than a capsuleer is the better route for that.

[Lyn Farel]

The last time this particular topic came up some people said they didn't like the idea of soft clones because they made the setting less grim.

I've always considered jump clones fairly firm proof that you can take a non-destructive scan. The idea that every time you jump clone the body you leave behind has to have a new brain installed makes very little sense to me, especially as the cyber stays intact.

However, consider this. If the body you left is still alive, then on returning to it you are overwriting the mind-state that was there when you left with the latest version. In effect you are murdering a previous iteration of yourself.

That's fairly grimdark all by itself.

CCP originally had stuff about soft-cloning (as typically defined by the playerbase) as being a Thing in the cloning and AD&D articles on the wiki. At some point they removed it and added some stuff about jump clones, saying a jump clone was essentially little more than a lethal hard scan. Their explanation for the implants sticking around? "Oh, we just pick them out of the head afterward and shove them into a fresh clone for when you come back."

Talk about fucking retarded - I'd buy that if we could pull implants out without destroying them and save them for later use.

I had always gone with JCs being a literal transfer and overwrite in RP prior to that. Since those tweaks to the wiki, though, I just never ever mention JCing, because fuck dealing with the herp-derp that that mess is.

Jump cloning has always been more or less the same than a hardscan iirc. Probably a lot vague and all, but I don't remember it being otherwise.

However, I have been puzzled a long time by that implant issue, that you keep at each jumpclone where it is well known that implants have to be destroyed when removed.

I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.

[Samira Kernher]

I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.

That's how I view it. It's easier to safely remove the implants when you don't have to worry about destroying the brain in the process.

[Bayushi Tamago]

In that case, I'd say a no go. It's the thing that makes DUST implants unique. Also, it fails to take into account that cloning so far either requires A) a fast but lethal hard scan or B ) an excruciatingly slow soft scan (and B is currently up in the air as far as canon goes).

A routine backup implant just negates all of that. Also, thematically, we're supposed to be vulnerable outside the pod. Whether permanent death or memory loss, being killed outside the pod is supposed to be a dangerous thing that we don't want to do.

Basically, if you want "perfect" out of pod cloning, then going DUST soldier rather than a capsuleer is the better route for that.

Hmm. I am working on developing Bay's backstory still, and that's why I'm asking. All of what I've written about her is pre-capsuleer(baseliner?) stuff so far, and well, she gets access to all the fun toys and tech even before getting turned into a capsuleer (reason for going egger currently still not developed), and, with that in mind, I would expect her to get all the cool toys in space as well, including non-civilian clone techs. The trouble is finding out where the line lays between black tech that is acceptable in terms of lore and what isn't.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.

That's how I view it. It's easier to safely remove the implants when you don't have to worry about destroying the brain in the process.

Well that makes sense. Except for one minor detail.

Your medical clone contract is priced by the skill points the clone needs to be able to hold. Therefore it would seem that the more complex the brain substitute being used the more expensive the clone. If, every time we jump clone they destroy the brain, why aren't we paying a good chunk of med clone renewal costs with each jump? Especially if they have to go to the effort of removing and then reinstating cybernetics.

It makes no sense at all that the brain is destroyed on jumping out of the body.

[Elmund Egivand]

I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.

That's how I view it. It's easier to safely remove the implants when you don't have to worry about destroying the brain in the process.

Well that makes sense. Except for one minor detail.

Your medical clone contract is priced by the skill points the clone needs to be able to hold. Therefore it would seem that the more complex the brain substitute being used the more expensive the clone. If, every time we jump clone they destroy the brain, why aren't we paying a good chunk of med clone renewal costs with each jump? Especially if they have to go to the effort of removing and then reinstating cybernetics.

It makes no sense at all that the brain is destroyed on jumping out of the body.

More likely the advances in clone tech has gone so far that you could now sleep in the CRU and scan, upload and download without killing said clone.

[Saede Riordan]

As a curiosity, seeing as Bay tends to be doing more ground work than space work RP-wise, what is the ruling on black tech from the government etc?
I am not terribly familiar with what all counts as 'godmodding' beyond something like 'lol I dodged your bullet because [reasons]'
In this instance, routine backup implant that circumvents memory loss on death outside of pod.

Its possible, though no known devices like that are known to exist in canon besides the dust tech. My character has been RPing attempting to develop a technology to do this for a few months now. Its conceivable, it could exist tech-wise in with the rest of the lore, but honestly? It doesn't need to. Just suck it up and take the time loss, it makes the RP more interesting. If your character is really really really paranoid, you could say she gets a backup made each night as she sleeps. I imagine regardless of how you cut it, dying is likely to be a fairly traumatic experience regardless of how you cut it. You might not want to remember your death.

[Saede Riordan]

In that case, I'd say a no go. It's the thing that makes DUST implants unique. Also, it fails to take into account that cloning so far either requires A) a fast but lethal hard scan or B ) an excruciatingly slow soft scan (and B is currently up in the air as far as canon goes).

A routine backup implant just negates all of that. Also, thematically, we're supposed to be vulnerable outside the pod. Whether permanent death or memory loss, being killed outside the pod is supposed to be a dangerous thing that we don't want to do.

Basically, if you want "perfect" out of pod cloning, then going DUST soldier rather than a capsuleer is the better route for that.

Hmm. I am working on developing Bay's backstory still, and that's why I'm asking. All of what I've written about her is pre-capsuleer(baseliner?) stuff so far, and well, she gets access to all the fun toys and tech even before getting turned into a capsuleer (reason for going egger currently still not developed), and, with that in mind, I would expect her to get all the cool toys in space as well, including non-civilian clone techs. The trouble is finding out where the line lays between black tech that is acceptable in terms of lore and what isn't.

I generally take this approach: Does it exist in the canon, if so, how rare is it? How likely is it that my rich capsuleer character could get a hold of it? What would it end up costing in real isk value?

By answering those questions about a given technology, its pretty easy to see what is okay to use and what isn't. I'd avoid becoming too River Tam though.

[Bayushi Tamago]

In that case, I'd say a no go. It's the thing that makes DUST implants unique. Also, it fails to take into account that cloning so far either requires A) a fast but lethal hard scan or B ) an excruciatingly slow soft scan (and B is currently up in the air as far as canon goes).

A routine backup implant just negates all of that. Also, thematically, we're supposed to be vulnerable outside the pod. Whether permanent death or memory loss, being killed outside the pod is supposed to be a dangerous thing that we don't want to do.

Basically, if you want "perfect" out of pod cloning, then going DUST soldier rather than a capsuleer is the better route for that.

Hmm. I am working on developing Bay's backstory still, and that's why I'm asking. All of what I've written about her is pre-capsuleer(baseliner?) stuff so far, and well, she gets access to all the fun toys and tech even before getting turned into a capsuleer (reason for going egger currently still not developed), and, with that in mind, I would expect her to get all the cool toys in space as well, including non-civilian clone techs. The trouble is finding out where the line lays between black tech that is acceptable in terms of lore and what isn't.

I generally take this approach: Does it exist in the canon, if so, how rare is it? How likely is it that my rich capsuleer character could get a hold of it? What would it end up costing in real isk value?

By answering those questions about a given technology, its pretty easy to see what is okay to use and what isn't. I'd avoid becoming too River Tam though.

The reason I am asking is that I'm not overly familiar with all the tech available for clones. I'm working on reading the lore, but between being a bit busy and the sheer volume, I was hoping I might be able to get a hand up from people with a bit more knowledge
In this case though, it's not so much 'what can I afford' as 'what is available to group a, b and c'
I do understand what you mean about Tam as well, and I'm hoping I don't end up putting her too close to that, but she's not exactly average either. Most of her flaws are mental, so

Thank you for the help