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[Jace]

I absolutely agree that the PF is unclear as to how come there are eight, how they came to be the only eight, etc. But absence of explanation does not mean we must suppose extra material that does not exist, especially when it is such a huge topic as the megas. Just because they don't explicitly state there was eight does not mean there was not eight. In order for the current setup of megas to not have existed, they would need to state that was the case.

Status quo has to be the default assumption, otherwise you introduce far too much supposition than is justified. It is easy to imagine that 6 vs 2 could easily provide enough pressure to put them in line, but more importantly, we don't know how it worked. We shouldn't assume we do.

[V. Gesakaarin]

I absolutely agree that the PF is unclear as to how come there are eight, how they came to be the only eight, etc. But absence of explanation does not mean we must suppose extra material that does not exist, especially when it is such a huge topic as the megas. Just because they don't explicitly state there was eight does not mean there was not eight. In order for the current setup of megas to not have existed, they would need to state that was the case.

Status quo has to be the default assumption, otherwise you introduce far too much supposition than is justified. It is easy to imagine that 6 vs 2 could easily provide enough pressure to put them in line, but more importantly, we don't know how it worked. We shouldn't assume we do.

No, the PF states that only six Caldari Megacorporations were part of the conspiracy to secede from the Federation. Which means that two out of the eight currently on the CEP were not involved until after the fact. That much seems rather clear to me.

[Jace]

But my point is that does not imply that two did not exist, or were not megas. Merely that they were not part of the secessionist actions.

[V. Gesakaarin]

But my point is that does not imply that two did not exist, or were not megas. Merely that they were not part of the secessionist actions.

No it doesn't, but it does open the door to discussion as to how they got on the CEP which is the point of this thread?

[Jace]

Which is groovy with me. My whole issue here has been the statement that it started as six. How the eight got in there is all groovy for discussing. I was just getting bent over the "there was six, but now is eight" thing.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Well at present the only Megacorp. that seems to have been confirmed as being involved in the secession beyond any doubt is Kaalakiota, because it appears Mathias Sobaseki was the principle architect of the secession (probably why there's a system named Sobaseki and a planet in New Caldari named Mathias).

[Vic Van Meter]

It could just be the Caldari evolutionary/Darwinian thing.  Your corp gets to join the CEP when the other members feel they have more to gain by giving you the position than by leaving you to scheme out in the cold.  You get kicked out of the CEP when kicking you out benefits the CEP corps more than keeping you in.  So a corp might be relatively small or large, but what keeps them in the CEP is political clout.  When the lines between citizen and employee are nonexistent, corporate political power can be much more tangible than in societies where the governments and private companies are (technically) separate.

Just saying that the whole reason the CEP corps are what they are might be simply because they bullied their way into their positions and no one's been able to knock them down yet.  For all we know, corporations may have joined the CEP and fallen from favor in the interim and just haven't been mentioned.  The Caldari aren't exactly ones to continue honoring ye olde auguste institutions after they've ceased to be effective.

[V. Gesakaarin]

It could just be the Caldari evolutionary/Darwinian thing.  Your corp gets to join the CEP when the other members feel they have more to gain by giving you the position than by leaving you to scheme out in the cold.  You get kicked out of the CEP when kicking you out benefits the CEP corps more than keeping you in.  So a corp might be relatively small or large, but what keeps them in the CEP is political clout.  When the lines between citizen and employee are nonexistent, corporate political power can be much more tangible than in societies where the governments and private companies are (technically) separate.

Just saying that the whole reason the CEP corps are what they are might be simply because they bullied their way into their positions and no one's been able to knock them down yet.  For all we know, corporations may have joined the CEP and fallen from favor in the interim and just haven't been mentioned.  The Caldari aren't exactly ones to continue honoring ye olde auguste institutions after they've ceased to be effective.

I think the problem with the Caldari State is that it's the only faction that doesn't have any real parallels in the real world to draw any comparison to as is the case with the democracy in the Federation; feudalism/theocracy in the Empire; or tribalism in the Republic.

A total corporate society is something that only has really existed in cyberpunk/sci-fi fiction so how the State functions can be rather opaque at times. Such as the concept of political clout being part of membership on the CEP - that would imply that citizens or shareholders dictate having a seat on the CEP, then again there's the contrary view that CEP members have such an iron-grip on the domestic markets and capital in the State that it's impossible to ever get on the CEP unless you were on it from the beginning.

[Lyn Farel]

Nobody answered my question though : is the State composed only of eight megas that control everything territory wise, with their subsidiaries, or are there independent corps as well ? Which would mean that some parts of the Caldari space would thus not be controlled by one of the megas, but another corp ?

If that's the case, then yeah, what prevents them to get seats in the CEP ? Possibly a lot of things, possibly none.

But if everything is always controlled by the megas, then every other corp has to be one of their subsidiaries. Which means, why would they have seats in the CEP is they are already owned by bigger megas ?

[Quintrala]

Hi there,

I would tend to think of this as a Corporate Board with major and minor players. The majors would usually dominate (one ISK, one vote kind of board), but would not always see eye-to-eye. In some cases, smaller independent corps start throwing some small but tie-breaking weight around, perhaps gaining a lot of favour in the political horse-trading.

I know I am thinking parliament right now, about the way some small parties influence things just by existing and having a handful of seats. To do this in a democracy, you have but to register, have your loyal, extremist following and wait for the right time. (I am also thinking Meet Joe Black and secret board deals)

I believe the English word would be a King-maker?

In a corporate world, maybe a Corp would have but to register to CEP and play the Big Eight's game. Whether the right moment (and windfall) arrives sometime, it would depend on the political manoeuvring - it may last all of fifteen minutes, but played right, that one corp's vote could shape the future.

Does it make any sense?

Q

[Simon Louvaki]

Nobody answered my question though : is the State composed only of eight megas that control everything territory wise, with their subsidiaries, or are there independent corps as well ? Which would mean that some parts of the Caldari space would thus not be controlled by one of the megas, but another corp ?

If that's the case, then yeah, what prevents them to get seats in the CEP ? Possibly a lot of things, possibly none.

But if everything is always controlled by the megas, then every other corp has to be one of their subsidiaries. Which means, why would they have seats in the CEP is they are already owned by bigger megas ?

From my understanding the vast majority of Corporation are subsidiaries of the other Megas, but there does appear to be other independent corporations. Perkone for instance isn't a Mega but I've seen nothing to suggest it has any handling from the other Megas and the description says it predates even Gallentee contact. 

[orange]

Also, prior to Heth, Quafe had a "seat" within the CEP and was a "Caldari State" Corporation.

[Jace]

There are independent corporations, but their power is limited. The easy example is Constructions in TEA. It is stated that it is not a megacorp, yet KK is able to push it around very easily. My take has always been, independent but largely neutered politically.

[orange]

There are independent corporations, but their power is limited. The easy example is Constructions in TEA. It is stated that it is not a megacorp, yet KK is able to push it around very easily. My take has always been, independent but largely neutered politically.

Once upon a time, KK owned 65% of Caldari Constructions.

Had to go find a non-CCP source for the information since CCP has been steadily removing such reference material. 

purple had an image showing the extent of the megas.  I can't find my copy.

KK significantly owned Ytiri, Echelon Entertainment, Zero-G Research Firm, Caldari Constructions, Caldari Funds Unlimited, and Home Guard.  These would have all fallen under KK's effectively direct control prior to Heth taking over Caldari Constructions, Ytiri, and KK.  He may have sold off significant portions of EE, Zero-G, and the CFU to fund the war.

From my understanding the vast majority of Corporation are subsidiaries of the other Megas, but there does appear to be other independent corporations. Perkone for instance isn't a Mega but I've seen nothing to suggest it has any handling from the other Megas and the description says it predates even Gallentee contact. 

Perkone falls firmly within the Hyasyoda (65%) sphere of influence and Wiyrkomi (20%) to a lesser degree.  Both Hyasyoda and Wiyrkomi have strong ties to original founding families (iirc)

[Jace]

I just recall TEA stating that Constructions was not a megacorp and essentially meaningless, a couple of times. Hopefully a lot of these fuzzy areas will be cleared up a little with Source, regarding CEP and such. The PF already strongly implies that as far as control and politics goes, nothing is remotely relevant compared to the megas.