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The Hyasyoda megacorporation is part of the 'liberal' faction, but is internally extremely conservative in business and its internal culture, with a great deal of pressure for employees to 'fit in'? It is still largely owned by the founding Osmon family.

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Author Topic: How do you feel about the current state and direction of the EVE IP  (Read 21540 times)

Vic Van Meter

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I understand the points, but I suppose for me the interpersonal aspects of RP have always been what makes it interesting for me. I do actually view the original lore as backstory for a character that will go out there and make relationships with other characters. Would everything be much easier and more fulfilling if CCP actually kept something as simple as World News coming on a more regular basis? Sure, it would.

And I do realize that my perspective does not help avoid RP cliques, but again, CCP never changing the dynamics or adding new lore is a larger part of that problem in my opinion. In other games like TSW, it is nearly impossible to avoid in-world consequences of the story. You can't actually just be a businessperson if you want. You can't say you killed that boss with those friends, because well, you didn't. He spawned again. The worlds of that style of MMO is so incredibly immersion-breaking for me that it ruins the potential for me.

It is similar with D&D versus say, WoD. If you play vanilla nWoD and not the specific settings, you are an average Jane with a few real-world skills. You are thrown into a story, and let's see what your character does. You aren't a budding wizard on your way to being a frackin' demigod.

So in the vein of that analogy, my current frustrations are not the backstory (for the most part *ahem* Jin-Mei *cough*) or the game mechanics (the arguments against FW are the same for every battleground system in any MMO ever), but the lack of news, lore, and change that CCP releases.

I don't want to seem like I am coming across as defending the current state of Eve RP - just the mechanics and setting of it. I think there are many things CCP could do differently, should do differently: the most important being, well, do something. And I think there are certain aspects of the RP community in Eve that have developed in very unfortunate ways - some by luck, some by the influence of heavy hitters, and often as a reaction to CCP's own mistakes.

Edit: And regarding the rarity of capsuleers, I've always viewed that as misinterpretation by RPers. They are described in these flowery terms in the PF to some extent, but in no way is it viewed as magical, heroic, or anything of that nature. It is just a technological evolution. A big one, a powerful one, but just another technological improvement like the assembly line was.

Edit2 (sorry  :eek:): Also, a lot of the things you are describing such as your Stormwind church are things that are simply limited without station walking. Not to open that can of worms, but a lot of the limitations that frustrate RPers is from the text-based aspect of Eve RP.

Probably so.  And how limited your text can be before you run out of space.  Man does that not help.  Especially in a game without station walking where you'd need to describe your own settings, having to break everything into just a few sentences over and over through a description is mind-numbing.  But I guess that's to avoid griefing in the rest of the game.  Kind of wish you could turn that off in player channels.

Maybe most of it comes from playing Shadowrun all those years ago, I got into that a lot deeper than I got into V:tM or D&D.  I loved it because Shadowrun, despite having that moral ambiguity, gave you so much to do and so much to work at.  You could work criminal angles, megacorps (Caldari corporations don't hold a candle to some of the Mitsuhama runs I've had to do, corporate zero-zero), dragons were everywhere, you had spirits to deal with, rogue news reporters, racist polyclubs.  You were overrun with complete assholes that deserved a hardcore asswhooping, or in my case usually a driving-away-from.

It would be different if it was a whole world that all needed an attitude adjustment, it's just, very colorless.  Maybe you don't need heroes, but EVE even manages to get blood-drinking psychopathic cultists to look boring.  You'd figure that would be in the news weekly.  CCP could hire someone to write grisly murder stories on a daily basis if they felt like it.  Yet they're just somewhere in the background, getting farmed by some null corp or another.  Not enough to write stories about, I guess, they just become another faction somewhere.

In any other game, blood drinking serial killing kidnappers are pretty universally the most slappable people imaginable.  How you couldn't color them villains is beyond me.  Yet even then, we just don't hear much from them.  It's like EVE made villains, you couldn't define them any other way, then completely neutered them.  Hell, if it wasn't for Silas, they're just another ISK node.  Which is sad, considering blood cultists are sort of Villains 101.

Don't get me wrong, people around here have taken the scant lore and run with it, but that's nothing we can say EVE's lore helped with.  If anything, EVE essentially made it impossible to play someone without that ambiguity because it simply can't make the basics work.  I could plop Constantin Baracca in any game with a religion of light and he could exist exactly as he is; the lore doesn't have enough substance to make anyone I've ever seen not fit in other games.  Good roleplayers can make good characters out of nothing, good lore makes characters better just by giving them a lot to work with.  EVE's lore is just too directionless and vague for that.
« Last Edit: 03 Feb 2014, 23:01 by Vic Van Meter »
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Gaven Lok ri

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Now you are getting somewhere. The lore is a *great* deal deeper than you are giving it credit for... but CCPs handling of making that lore seem alive in the universe is totally crap.

The game world feels significantly less alive than it did 8 or 9 years ago and the NPCs feel a lot more static than in the early days before CCP got scared of showing favoritism of any sort.
« Last Edit: 03 Feb 2014, 23:23 by Gaven Lok ri »
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Jace

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Probably so.  And how limited your text can be before you run out of space.  Man does that not help.  Especially in a game without station walking where you'd need to describe your own settings, having to break everything into just a few sentences over and over through a description is mind-numbing.  But I guess that's to avoid griefing in the rest of the game.  Kind of wish you could turn that off in player channels.

Maybe most of it comes from playing Shadowrun all those years ago, I got into that a lot deeper than I got into V:tM or D&D.  I loved it because Shadowrun, despite having that moral ambiguity, gave you so much to do and so much to work at.  You could work criminal angles, megacorps (Caldari corporations don't hold a candle to some of the Mitsuhama runs I've had to do, corporate zero-zero), dragons were everywhere, you had spirits to deal with, rogue news reporters, racist polyclubs.  You were overrun with complete assholes that deserved a hardcore asswhooping, or in my case usually a driving-away-from.

It would be different if it was a whole world that all needed an attitude adjustment, it's just, very colorless.  Maybe you don't need heroes, but EVE even manages to get blood-drinking psychopathic cultists to look boring.  You'd figure that would be in the news weekly.  CCP could hire someone to write grisly murder stories on a daily basis if they felt like it.  Yet they're just somewhere in the background, getting farmed by some null corp or another.  Not enough to write stories about, I guess, they just become another faction somewhere.

In any other game, blood drinking serial killing kidnappers are pretty universally the most slappable people imaginable.  How you couldn't color them villains is beyond me.  Yet even then, we just don't hear much from them.  It's like EVE made villains, you couldn't define them any other way, then completely neutered them.  Hell, if it wasn't for Silas, they're just another ISK node.  Which is sad, considering blood cultists are sort of Villains 101.

Don't get me wrong, people around here have taken the scant lore and run with it, but that's nothing we can say EVE's lore helped with.  If anything, EVE essentially made it impossible to play someone without that ambiguity because it simply can't make the basics work.  I could plop Constantin Baracca in any game with a religion of light and he could exist exactly as he is; the lore doesn't have enough substance to make anyone I've ever seen not fit in other games.  Good roleplayers can make good characters out of nothing, good lore makes characters better just by giving them a lot to work with.  EVE's lore is just too directionless and vague for that.

"If anything, EVE essentially made it impossible to play someone without that ambiguity because it simply can't make the basics work."

I think this is the key point of difference for us. I view the inability to play without ambiguity as a great thing, not as a failure. It is intentional, and it is something not many RP universes do. I like ambiguity, I like the fact that it is almost impossible to make a hero or villain fit into this universe. Those that try usually start to look hackneyed fairly quickly.

I couldn't get into Shadowrun because everything felt so exaggerated to me. I don't like my characters feeling forced to care about something, I don't like the environment trying to make me react to exaggerated things. It ruins my immersion. It's also why I had a hard time with D&D except for very specific DMs, and why I never stuck around WoW long (besides hating the actual game itself, I mean) and my TSW tenure was fairly short.

And I absolutely agree with you about the text limitations.
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PracticalTechnicality

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To qualify my answer (option 3) I would like to state the following:

1. This poll is obviously exceptionally limited
2. I support more about large capsuleer groups in ADDITION to iteration on existing PF
3. I perceive a lot of unhappiness with PF is due to one or two 'nexus' events where bad writers had the reins (he who shall not be named) and the frantic backpedaling that has been the prime driver of CCP generated RP since then.

Point 1 is a given, any poll is going to have a limitation issue as will any reductionist approach, it is why we have the capacity to post is response.  In this case, the love/hate approach is a little leading IMO, but serves to get the point across. 

Point 2, I think that RP suffers from a sense of disconnect in the power structures of the 'stage and props' and the actors who move within and upon them.  We need more development of the back story, to build a convincing stage upon which we may act our our role play.  At the same time if the players on that stage, be they role player or rabid internet douche (or both), are not at least partially defined by the very real power structures they create, we get a disparity between power projection, word-bloat and the general 'them and us' I see a lot between 'loyalists' and 'colonists' (or whatever else you might want to call the null-blocs). 

A definition of the Empires that incorporates the capsuleers,  without the current spooky hands 'their power is growing unchecked' would mitigate a lot of the issues here.  Empires that have stood the test of time are apparently being threatened by groups less than a decade old, often younger.  If this is coming to pass, then more detail would be nice - Rome didn't fall in a day and neither will the Empires, but null sec is fertile ground for a new type of structure to be explored by the players and incorporated into the rich PF we have.  After all, there have been some far more sensible political and military decisions born of the necessities of victory in the game world, than there have been in the fictitious battles of the Empires - drawing on this to the benefit of both (retconning or evolving fictional fleet combat to involve tactics that demonstrably WORK in game) can only help role play become more relevant and in tune with the realities of day to day activity.  This can be said for all scales, from solo frigate pvp, through skirmishes in FW, up to the maligned but required blob warfare of sov grinds. 

Simply put, the lack of focus on capsuleer groups (large, small, whatever) combined with the lack of recognition of that middle ground of the Empire loyal capsuleer, is causing a lot of problems with the PF in general from a consistency and impetus point of view.  It is evident players will define their own characters through role play (passive or active) no matter what - the game is just built in such a way that any action can be taken in a 'cause -> effect, make words' context.  Shackling us to Empire descriptions may be fun for those of us that like to play with the stage dressings, but what of those who wish to build something center stage, all of their own,  trying to keep it up as long as possible before others pull their creation apart?  If we're going to develop the PF, I think that the interface between free-captain/independent colonies, the pirate factions and the CONCORD signatory nations need to be hammered out in at least the loosest of detail. 

Point 3, he who shall not be named et al.  This is an unfortunate state of affairs, because this guy shit the bed once and CCP decided to let him back under the covers despite finding empty packs of Ex-Lax in the bedside table, resulting in an initially warm current of PF stirring, followed by a wave of nausea and attempts to block the entire protracted, flatulent biological encounter from the collective memory.  Damage is done, and to be honest, the community damage control of going ostrich actually worked pretty well IMO.  You get the occasional person who likes to thrust this PF in our faces, because, like it or not, it is PF, but fortunately a majority are either hollow trolls that are easily dismissed, or individuals with the good sense to cherry pick and polish what can be salvaged.  The primary issue on CCP's side is staying on the defensive. 

To continue a metaphor, CCP love those damned bed sheets, and they don't care if the colour is bleached out so long as they can still claim to have those very same sheets to put on show.  Thus the cleansing begins, not with the fire of retcon, but with the peroxide of back pedal.  I applaud the CCP story team for their attempts, but the fact that every story except for a very few has been a response to 'people hate these characters, what do?' shows.  Simply put, my trust in the ability for CCP to define their game in pseudo real-time fiction is shaken to the core.  I trust that future Chronicles and EVE:Source will be fantastic, due to the largely unfettered collective talents of those individuals working on them, but the marketing machine and public-facing big selling RP of EVE is tainted by a very few nexus events that have since coloured almost every effort to rebalance the fiction.  This has in turn shifted my opinion towards the reconciliation of 'what we experience as characters in the context of the game' and 'what we experience as characters in the setting'.  Just getting more about the big four or pirates isn't enough - we need to know how we as capsuleers fit in in the loosest sense.  Don't define us, but provide the springboard for descriptions of interactions with realistic power structures, in terms of how you might be received as a member of an alliance, a corp, or even as an NPC corp 'franchise' pilot keeping out of trouble. 

To summarise, I do not feel that a concentration of the static or out of reach elements of the back story is advisable, simply based on prior experience.  The bogey man capsuleer trope is getting old, and the only way to mitigate this is to start to define the loosest possible framework for why capsuleers would continue to be tolerated, and how CONCORD reconciles the capsuleer empire building, loyalist corp founding and piratical activity with the gains made from such.  How deeply can a new system be exploited (does sov indicate colonisation, or is the outpost the largest metropolitan structure an alliance may hold? is colonisation restricted to skeleton crew and largely autonomous PI?)?  Iterate on the back story, develop it and refine it by all means, but focus on that bit where we, the players of the characters, start to become relevant. 
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2014, 04:15 by PracticalTechnicality »
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Publius Valerius

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Hi to all, sorry for any misspellings.

"How do you feel about the current state and direction of the Eve IP and "lore"?"
Is a great question which I so cant answer (thats why I hit nothing). So I will try to answer first another question: How do you feel about the current state and direction of the Eve?
For me coming back a year later it was almost same, and sadly the same reason which let me go the first time are still there right now:
- EVE has no casual gameplay. Everything is a journey and if you dont have the time in RL to put into the game, you are out.[1]
- I feel nothing. For me the game hasnt just a infaltion of ISK, it has also a inflation of feelings. What I mean with it? I mean: In the long gone past I really felt soemthing if I loss or won(kill) something, as for today I dont feel anything. I know, it is most likely me, as I feel the same about other games and movies too.[2] Even, after I read the news about the battle, I felt nothing and most likely the other side too. Nothing died inside of me when some blows me up, it is not even a mild annoyance, it is more like in WoT: Go and take another "pixel-thing" and fight again. I call it the inflation of feelings. I think new threats of death would be needed for me. As I mention here, it makes not just great storytelling it would make for me the gameplay less "indifferent". Maybe World of Darkness will be my next CCP game, even if I dont know nothing about the lore.
- Fresh Ideas and Fresh blood. After a year the same topics are still around, and often I dont comment on stuff because I know I already have. I call that the dead horse thingy. As of for the people: I always thought that more people is more fun and that the immersion project would be a great idea to get more people on the round table.[3] Sadly, there isnt much lately which would really inspire a growth (the rework of machanic and overall look was needed, but it doesnt brings more game-content. And I dont count the drop of some random models and few ships as a "big leap forward" in any direction. Thats why for me the latest expansion were more patshes to fix stuff.)* And that CCP actually dont react** to the stagnant subs (not counting the China server) let me belive that we both -- CCP and me -- have different opinions on that matter.4

Thats my short version what I feel about the current state of EVE. As for the lore: How do you feel about the current state and direction of the Eve IP and "lore"?
- Meh. I still like it. It is just the Exequror-moments got more. What I mean with it? A exequror-moment is something which pulls you out of the immersion. Which reminds you that EVE is more space opera, then sci-fi.5 Those exequror-moments have I lately more. So it isnt all "you know who" fault.*** Even if his work started it and contributed the largest part of this "Exequror-moments". Today, I know I have to change my perception of EVE, until this transformation is over I will stand with my "meh"/indifferent. Which is actually the worst possible answer towards any writer. :(





*Which I can understand with DUST 514 and Valkyre as new creative focus.
**not react in a sense, that CCP brushes it away with "cell regeneration" and "just the calm before the storm" (to lazy to find and add the mark726-article). It reminds me on the one of those panals few fanfest agos. Where the same lines were drop by (you know who, the man which we shall not name.) about the IP, that it will explode etc... "just the calm before the storm [...] see arab spring."
***Making caldari liberals to american liberals.6 And amarr slavers to american slavers... etc general TonyGism (charakter choose options not because they are the best, they choose because it moves the plot forward. Which makes me belive that some book-charakters have less braincells, choice or are just stupid.
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2014, 06:23 by Publius Valerius »
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Louella Dougans

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see this topic on the IGS here?:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318467&find=unread

?

Because of Theodicy, and the requirement for that to be 100% canon, then that topic is all wrong.

The Minmatar never lost any cultural practices, the Minmatar were still colonising planets by the outbreak of the Rebellion. They may have lost artifacts and access to culturally important sites on Matar, but not the culture itself.

They still had a Minmatar Navy, capable of building, without Gallente help (because the Gallente had only just met them), battleships that were the equal of any given single Imperial Navy battleship.

The argument about lost records and oral traditions is simply, according to CCP, flat out wrong.

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Jace

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see this topic on the IGS here?:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318467&find=unread

?

Because of Theodicy, and the requirement for that to be 100% canon, then that topic is all wrong.

The Minmatar never lost any cultural practices, the Minmatar were still colonising planets by the outbreak of the Rebellion. They may have lost artifacts and access to culturally important sites on Matar, but not the culture itself.

They still had a Minmatar Navy, capable of building, without Gallente help (because the Gallente had only just met them), battleships that were the equal of any given single Imperial Navy battleship.

The argument about lost records and oral traditions is simply, according to CCP, flat out wrong.

While I am woefully impotent as far as Minnie lore goes, doesn't that common trope have something to do with CCP having some serious holes in their Minmatar lore?
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Louella Dougans

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Because of Theodicy
While I am woefully impotent as far as Minnie lore goes, doesn't that common trope have something to do with CCP having some serious holes in their Minmatar lore?

Almost every other part of Minmatar PF is based on the premise that the Minmatar were conquered and enslaved in their entirety.

With the short story Theodicy, and the sequels, the two eve novels, Empyrean Age and Templar One, then that all changes.

Instead of being a people that were conquered by an overwhelmingly technologically superior force, and enslaved for hundreds of years, with much of their existing culture being suppressed, before eventually rebelling and winning the freedom of their homeworld and much more space than they originally held, through their own martial efforts, and in the modern age, dealing with the cultural legacy of their enslavement and the continued enslavement of a large number of their kin, the image portrayed by those items of PF is quite different.

Instead, the Minmatar are now, officially, a people that were mostly conquered by a technologically superior force, were unable to win their freedom except with extremely heavy material and educational support from a foreign power, were unable to form a stable government, because of endemic corruption, are unable to cope with the cultural legacy of their enslavement, due to their own incompetence, because it is only through Minmatar incompetence that any culture was lost since the Day of Darkness, and as a people, are now largely irrelevant, because their puppet masters, the Elders, who merely have to say "OBEY" and a minmatar jumps to follow the command, a far more effective control than anything the Amarr ever made, the Elders have now, after wasting millions of Minmatar lives, decided that the future of Minmatar no longer lies with anything connected with the Republic, which includes all player characters.


So, on one hand, you have Minmatar that are brave fighters that have problems dealing with the cultural legacy of having been slaves for centuries, where player characters can involve themselves in trying to deal with the problems.

And on the other, you have Minmatar who are corrupt, incompetent, unable to achieve anything without foreign help, bite the hand that feeds them, and are the discarded obedient automaton puppets of the Elders with no will of their own, who are utterly irrelevant to what it "means to be Minmatar", all player characters included.

And the direction of PF is that second portrayal.

It's not a hole, it's a retcon.
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Lyn Farel

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Yeah, Louella nailed it for the Minmatar. They have gone from desperate people trying to reconcile with their lost history and build something of their own, getting out of a quasi cultural extinction, to turn into drum circles with caravans on Pator (aka Waterworld).


I suppose that, because it rotates around two thing, empires (which can't essentially lose or win because people actually belong to those factions) and nullsec corp politics (which I tried to get into, but couldn't bring myself to really care), EVE wallows in moral ambiguity.  Hell, Constantin Baracca is essentially my reaction to EVE, that there are no good guys, no paladins, and I intentionally put him in the most hated race in New Eden.

I know the moral ambiguity is there by design, and some people really like it, but it hits me with a sense of pointlessness.  Maybe I played too many paladins or gangsters in my RPing days, but EVE lore does sometimes feel like a blob of grey gloop.  Like wall putty, it serves a very important purpose, but isn't especially interesting unless you're into gypsum patching.

There's just no omnipresent force of danger, not a universal villain or even space itself, threatening people.  So a lot of the arguing and conflicts seem very petty and insignificant.  Normally, intergovernmental intrigue is sort of the background ridiculousness that paralyzes great people from acting together against everpresent threats.  Since EVE itself isn't threatening you, those petty disagreements and arguing are the boiling points of the game.

It's not the worst thing ever, people are trying, but man does it feel like I have to work to wring meaning from the game lore.

I find that greyish soup rather refreshing. I have more and more difficulties with black and white setups. That's why I have come to play myself more and more in tabletop RP games like The Masquerade or L5R.

I still like a lot of more black and white settings, though, at least, for those with a good narrative and story. Maybe the only thing I could criticize negatively about eve lore is their tendency at times to force and shoehorn the grimdark everywhere, like, with a hammer. It's like doing something grimdark at times and then winking very slowly in your direction to make sure you understood how grimdark (and so, awesome) it is.


Maybe, but not everyone plays that hero.  On the other hand, there are a hundred different problems to handle, often several at once, without resorting to that.

EVE doesn't really have that, it's just a bit devoid of anything.  I think that's why, eventually, it kind of devolves into a sort of background noise after a while.  Take faction warfare for instance.  The reason the lore for that is so unreasonably stupid is because it completely apes their own logic for how the universe works.  CONCORD can apparently be attacked, dismantled, and doesn't do anything about it afterwards.  Instead, the empires sign a pact sending their people to the middle of nowhere and letting them duke it out in a war that can't end, lest the game mechanic disappear.  But instead of seeing this as a complete P.O.S. waste of time, resources, and lives, we're supposed to treat this like a real war that patriots go and fight in.

Imagine if the US and USSR, worse than just the proxy wars they fought during the Cold War, randomly picked the Yakutsk and Alaska and said, "All of you can go fight over there if you want, but it won't make any difference in the long term.  But you should, it's your duty!"

The problem is, if your reaction to that is, "WTF, that's ridiculous and I'll have nothing to do with it!" your other option is nullsec, where that's essentially been going on for almost a decade.

There's no northern wall to go defend, nowhere to go if you want to be more than a factionalist, unless you deal with one of those two sets of lore.  It really is to the detriment of the lore in the end, I think.  It really comes to a head when CCP talks about giving more control to the capsuleers, and we capsuleers end up against it because even we know we're full of shit.  None of us really want the people in nullsec to have anything to do with highsec, mostly because those of us in highsec right now would prefer CCP purgatory to nullsec Hell.

But because of the ambiguity, there's really nothing else to do in EVE.  The pirates are essentially gold mines for whomever holds their space, the empires hover between omnipresent non-entities or emasculated bureaucracies, and space is a relatively benign place where, unless a player scans you and drops by to shoot you, you can get up, logged in, and wander around for a few hours.  It's not that there are no heroes, it's that there's really nothing to be a hero against.  That's a function of the lore, that all the potential calls to arms aren't worth answering.

Really, in the end, the only reason to do anything is money and power, both gained for the purposes of buying equipment to gain more money and power.  Maybe that's why I prefer WoW's lore to EVE's, it might be the McDonalds of games, but at least it has some substantive nutritional value.  EVE's lore can essentially be like water, a basic substance that, if we weren't adding flavor to it, would taste like nothing.

Eve lore has been irremediably butchered since TEA. They may have tried to fix it a bit recently, but that's rather negligible tbh. Sorry in advance to Falcon, Eterne, and all the ones that tried, but really, that's close to a failure to me for now. I am still thankful for their efforts though.

How to fix something as absurd as FW to begin with ? By removing it from the game altogether ?  :ugh:

It was not like that in the past at all.


Maybe it's just me, but I feel like, because of the lore setup, it's very hard to make anything happen without engendering some eyerolls.  It's hard to write compelling lore when everything you do will absolutely piss off your subscribers, but since all the in-game movers and shakers are aligned to people the capsuleers essentially work for, CCP kind of wrote themselves into a corner.

Well yes, it forces people to play more mature and a lot more subtle. That's also something I find really refreshing.


The direction of the background just kinda reinforces this. It doesn't try to work with the setting like most MMOs do. Rather, the setting exists only as a tool of justification - Something to provide a bit of flavour for the direction of the game, not something deep or meaningfully woven in.

I don't think that's bad, per se. It's just what the game is.

Yes, that is more and more the case in my opinion. It is rather unfortunate.

Now you are getting somewhere. The lore is a *great* deal deeper than you are giving it credit for... but CCPs handling of making that lore seem alive in the universe is totally crap.

The game world feels significantly less alive than it did 8 or 9 years ago and the NPCs feel a lot more static than in the early days before CCP got scared of showing favoritism of any sort.

That is exactly that. There is a huge, growing dichotomy between the actual lore and its poor, terrible depiction ingame. Because as Gwen said, it is used as a sugarcoat and a justification for marketing and gameplay decisions rather than living together with it as it did in the past.
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2014, 13:57 by Lyn Farel »
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Anabella Rella

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It's become apparent to me over the past couple of years (since the Incarna protests) that CCP cares only about what practical, tangible game mechanics ideas they can palm off as expansions to mollify the masses who rebelled against Incarna. Gone are any attempts to bring fresh, innovative ideas to the table or to develop the backstory. Instead the lore is bent to accommodate whatever new game feature CCP's planning to introduce. I honestly feel that CCP views the incredibly rich lore (and RPers who love that lore) as necessary evils; something they'd just as soon went away rather than vital resources to be leveraged.

Hell, why bother to hire professionals to work with a deep and complex IP when you can market  "thousands of players in a single place destroying hundreds of mega-ships worth the equivalent of $300,000 in RL money!"  :psyccp:
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I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused.

Lyn Farel

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Oh, and I absolutely refuse to see nullsec alliances coming into the lore. Nullsec can stay where it is, it's bland. It's not lore written by a storymaker. It's lore constituted of bunches of drunk dudes with silly names like Bob, or xxxXShadoxOfXDeathXXxxXXxx  !1!1!11!!!

Vade retro.
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Jace

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It's become apparent to me over the past couple of years (since the Incarna protests) that CCP cares only about what practical, tangible game mechanics ideas they can palm off as expansions to mollify the masses who rebelled against Incarna. Gone are any attempts to bring fresh, innovative ideas to the table or to develop the backstory. Instead the lore is bent to accommodate whatever new game feature CCP's planning to introduce. I honestly feel that CCP views the incredibly rich lore (and RPers who love that lore) as necessary evils; something they'd just as soon went away rather than vital resources to be leveraged.

Hell, why bother to hire professionals to work with a deep and complex IP when you can market  "thousands of players in a single place destroying hundreds of mega-ships worth the equivalent of $300,000 in RL money!"  :psyccp:

Though to be fair, I cannot think of a single MMO that did not see the RP community in that way. It is always a secondary community to be handled, nothing more.
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Graelyn

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  • These things just seem to happen...

Though to be fair, I cannot think of a single MMO that did not see the RP community in that way. It is always a secondary community to be handled, nothing more.

You're tapping here at a big iceberg. If I wasn't so lazy I would write a whole brickwall of text on the subject, but here's the shorthairs:

While I am squarely in the camp of those who desperately want strong story, consequence, and a reactive world that seems real on it's own...you're talking about roleplayers.

Roleplayers are kept at arms length, because while we are by far the most committed and giving types of people in terms of content, as a whole we are also packed to the gills with cringenerds.

Roleplayers Scare Developers.

Here's the tough part to swallow:

It's completely justified.

I have seen more petty snippy manipulative bullshit in one month of Roleplaying (not IC either, purely OOC) than happens in a year of nullsec metagaming. The most depraved and pathetic displays of desperation, usually for nothing more than keeping a certain 'appearance', have come from Roleplayers. Even before taking on the Summit job, before being the Hated Head Referee of the Derplord Championships, the things I've seen RPers do to each other would really bend all senses of credulity.

RPers make enemies like everyone else, because they're playing the same game as everyone else, they meet the same annoying shits who troll and trample your stuff.....but they Hate, I mean truly HATE like no one else. They make enemies for life, and it's often over the most petty and insignificant things you could imagine.

Have you ever heard a LARPer screaming about a rule, crying about unfairness? Ever seen a tabletop RPer throw his dice and rage? It makes you cringe and lessens your respect for anyone in those hobbies, but in an MMO, where the anonymity of the internet and the convenience of a computer game make this the norm? Bad stereotypes become more and more accurate.

Roleplayers take the game too seriously.

Devs, of course, happily march to the hypocrite's drum of pretending they love such a community. They tell us all how they're committed to the same ideals we are, that they want to take the world they've created seriously too.

Then they step off stage, take a relieved breath, and joke with each other about 'those fucking weirdos'.

(1200th post. Good round number.)
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2014, 15:00 by Graelyn »
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If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Jace

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I wouldn't argue with any of that. It's part of the reason why RP communities always turn into cliques and public RP inevitably dies. It is also the reason why I spend way more time writing fiction about my characters that I never plan to see the light of day than I actually do RPing.

It ebbs and flows, and every game I've RP'd in has these weird phases where public RP actually has things going that are meaningful and interesting, bring in new RPers that stick around - but it never lasts, and people retract back into their cliques to play house.

Edit: And honestly, most RP communities reach the point where they start viewing themselves in the same way you described the devs. Only their group has the right balance, everyone else are derpy weirdos that take it too seriously, etc.
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2014, 15:05 by Jace/Brock »
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Vincent Pryce

  • Guest

Though to be fair, I cannot think of a single MMO that did not see the RP community in that way. It is always a secondary community to be handled, nothing more.

You're tapping here at a big iceberg. If I wasn't so lazy I would write a whole brickwall of text on the subject, but here's the shorthairs:

While I am squarely in the camp of those who desperately want strong story, consequence, and a reactive world that seems real on it's own...you're talking about roleplayers.

Roleplayers are kept at arms length, because while we are by far the most committed and giving types of people in terms of content, as a whole we are also packed to the gills with cringenerds.

Roleplayers Scare Developers.

Here's the tough part to swallow:

It's completely justified.

I have seen more petty snippy manipulative bullshit in one month of Roleplaying (not IC either, purely OOC) than happens in a year of nullsec metagaming. The most depraved and pathetic displays of desperation, usually for nothing more than keeping a certain 'appearance', have come from Roleplayers. Even before taking on the Summit job, before being the Hated Head Referee of the Derplord Championships, the things I've seen RPers do to each other would really bend all senses of credulity.

RPers make enemies like everyone else, because they're playing the same game as everyone else, they meet the same annoying shits who troll and trample your stuff.....but they Hate, I mean truly HATE like no one else. They make enemies for life, and it's often over the most petty and insignificant things you could imagine.

Have you ever heard a LARPer screaming about a rule, crying about unfairness? Ever seen a tabletop RPer throw his dice and rage? It makes you cringe and lessens your respect for anyone in those hobbies, but in an MMO, where the anonymity of the internet and the convenience of a computer game make this the norm? Bad stereotypes become more and more accurate.

Roleplayers take the game too seriously.

Devs, of course, happily march to the hypocrite's drum of pretending they love such a community. They tell us all how they're committed to the same ideals we are, that they want to take the world they've created seriously too.

Then they step off stage, take a relieved breath, and joke with each other about 'those fucking weirdos'.

(1200th post. Good round number.)

Only once a blue moon I take the key out of the well of despicable hate and open the lockbox of love. You made me do that again.

Going Gay For Graelyn 2014
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