Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Nmaro Makari]

http://thoughtcatalog.com/danielle-ryan/2014/02/i-am-a-ukrainian-this-needs-to-go-viral/#wqKP5F5ippD8aVxb.01

More video goodies

[orange]

I think Ukraine is more comparable to the Egypt situation than it is Syria, from what I know about it. I don't think Russia comes into the equation as heavily, because I think it all comes down to what the army does if an order to use (more) force is given. Russia only comes into the picture if a significant but not decisive portion of the Ukrainian military chose to support the rebels.

My point is that the international community is larger powerless to bring pressure on those governments to cease killing off its opposition.

Russia is placing pressure on the existing government to quell the opposition by deferring aid and hindering the out flow of Ukrainian-made goods.

I suppose an option is for the EU to put together a replacement aid package and provide an outlet for those goods.

[Vic Van Meter]

I think Ukraine is more comparable to the Egypt situation than it is Syria, from what I know about it. I don't think Russia comes into the equation as heavily, because I think it all comes down to what the army does if an order to use (more) force is given. Russia only comes into the picture if a significant but not decisive portion of the Ukrainian military chose to support the rebels.

My point is that the international community is larger powerless to bring pressure on those governments to cease killing off its opposition.

Russia is placing pressure on the existing government to quell the opposition by deferring aid and hindering the out flow of Ukrainian-made goods.

I suppose an option is for the EU to put together a replacement aid package and provide an outlet for those goods.

Isn't that obliquely the problem with our approach in North Korea?  That they, say, develop nuclear weapons and hold the region hostage unless we send them food?

It'd be nice to put together our own aid package and sign a free trade deal with Ukraine (I kind of thought that's what the Eurozone was).  Honestly, I think that, if the U.S. really wanted to do some good for Ukraine and all the other countries in the region, our government could sign that free trade deal with the E.U.  That'd give people a real reason to want to join.  If Americans are good at one other thing than blowing shit up, it's buying shit.

Particularly buying shit to blow shit up.

[orange]

Particularly buying shit to blow shit up.

We mostly buy Made In USA in that case.

[Vic Van Meter]

Particularly buying shit to blow shit up.

We mostly buy Made In USA in that case.

Oddly enough, that's not always true.  We tend to export a lot of high tech military equipment, but a lot of weapons like small arms and even a bunch of pieces of our planes and tanks are from abroad.  We do usually buy the contracts and then make them here, but that's not always the case either.

We do get quite a bit from Belgium and Germany.  I wonder if that free trade contract applies to submachine guns.

[Lyn Farel]

That free trade thing is finally going to happen ?

[Arista Shahni]

The pessimist in me is expecting my 'local advocate' for EuroMaidan to one day start sending out info to all of us on her feeds about assisting political refugees fleeing to the States any week now.  Issue is, Ukranians/Russians take no shit (as a general rule) if they truly feel they are fighting for what is truly right, and will be happy to die in a firebomb before they run. 

The only Ukranians fleeing are the political folks who had a hand in this insanity. 

Some stuff she linked me.  (I'm going to leave out the stuff IN Ukranian, as I can't read it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSvliqNExP0&feature=share

http://youtu.be/7oEs1YViGOs

Also:

Berkut in Ternopil has joined the protesters.

The officers swore on the Bible, being surrounded by about 6000 – 7000 residents of the city.

Source: tvi.ua

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nth-_E2Zpdc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWI1QyJoq3E

[Nmaro Makari]

 Honestly, I think that, if the U.S. really wanted to do some good for Ukraine and all the other countries in the region, our government could sign that free trade deal with the E.U.  That'd give people a real reason to want to join.  If Americans are good at one other thing than blowing shit up, it's buying shit.

Particularly buying shit to blow shit up.

There is supposedly a free trade treaty still in the works, but the revelation about bugging of European embassies hamstringed that, at least temporarily. Still remains to be seen if it all goes well.

Also, like has been mentioned, there is a big international market in the smaller components of weapons systems, from small-arms to missiles. Right near me is a Heckler and Koch facility, no bigger than a small industrial unit which makes some random odd-bits for weapons.

[Arista Shahni]

(applies stereotypical American Mask)

We apply Democracy in megaton units.

[orange]

Particularly buying shit to blow shit up.

We mostly buy Made In USA in that case.

Oddly enough, that's not always true.  We tend to export a lot of high tech military equipment, but a lot of weapons like small arms and even a bunch of pieces of our planes and tanks are from abroad.  We do usually buy the contracts and then make them here, but that's not always the case either.

We do get quite a bit from Belgium and Germany.  I wonder if that free trade contract applies to submachine guns.

I really should not respond with comments that lead down rabbit holes.

[orange]

Also:

Berkut in Ternopilhas joined the protesters.

The officers swore on the Bible, being surrounded by about 6000 – 7000 residents of the city.

I have very mixed reactions to that kind of news.  I think it is good for Ternopil, but the repercussions for the protest/revolution/civil unrest as a whole maybe very, very bad.  It means that paramilitary forces are starting to divide, which means the opposition side is "gaining access to hardware" that can only lead to escalation.  It does not necessarily mean they actually have access to the hardware, but the possibility/threat now exist and the "loyalist" may want to ensure the unrest is crushed sooner.

[Arista Shahni]

It is going to get ugly whether trained officers join or not.  Lets not joke.  This isn't the US Occupy stuff where a couple of police horses can chase away thousands of people, when these people are saying they're willing to die they mean it, and that sort of statement is going to be met with "Well, you wanna die, lets get at it."

As Stalin's officers once said to shamans as they were kicked out of  helicopters, "So you say you can turn into a bird?  Then fly, bird, fly."

[orange]

It is going to get ugly whether trained officers join or not.  Lets not joke.  This isn't the US Occupy stuff where a couple of police horses can chase away thousands of people, when these people are saying they're willing to die they mean it, and that sort of statement is going to be met with "Well, you wanna die, lets get at it."

It isn't just the defection of the trained officers that would cause the escalation; it is the access to armories those trained officers control.

Are those willing to die for the cause, also willing to kill for the cause?  If so, then the question can be turned around - are the loyal Berkut & military willing to die to protect their political bosses?

[Arista Shahni]

This is a kind of situation where I'm personally stuck watching waiting listening to news and and flatly praying. 

As this touches me too on personal of a level and includes family in Ukraine it is hard for me to dissect the situation in an objective framework without being overly emotionally charged, or analyzing it like a kid curiously watching the result of ants burning under someone else's magnifying glass because it is more, for me, than just feeling an abstract sense of sadness at the fate of the ants, but a true and visceral connection to what's going on.  I percieve it as my own grandfather being oppressed and murdered because the people in Kiev are my family - that is where my branch immigrated from.

So unfortunately any thought exersizes on this topic, really, will end up disjointed, incomplete, and likely literally make me cry.  So I have to decline from a dialogue like this on the topic.

[orange]

So unfortunately any thought exersizes on this topic, really, will end up disjointed, incomplete, and likely literally make me cry.  So I have to decline from a dialogue like this on the topic.

Understood.