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[Vikarion]

Well, huh. After reading these responses, I definitely haven't ever been depressed. And I can't say that I miss it. Sounds like being a prisoner in your own mind. I wonder if that's because I don't feel deeply, or something else. There have been times I felt a bit lost, or momentarily sad, but nothing like what's been described (definitely get the idea of boredom, though). I do hope that those here who are have had to fight with depression have success in doing so.

A couple things I am curious about - is human interaction always helpful? I mean, I have a friend who says he's a bit of an introvert - he likes to be alone, or only with a couple friends. More human interaction than that is exhausting for him. Can interacting with more or fewer people have a bearing on how you feel?

Second, how deep do these feelings go? When I'm struggling with an emotion, I usually find it relatively easy to just set it aside, figure out what I want to do, and do it. Is depression/sadness more incapacitating because of its intensity, or because it wears you down over time?

Third, when you are out of it, for a period or perhaps permanently, is it still hovering around the edges, something you ignore and simply resist, or is it really gone, and you just have to guard against a return?

I'm sorry if this is insensitive. I'm just a bit interested.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Human interaction is 'always' helpful, yes. That means, though, that it's not good to evade human interaction entirely. In my experience it can be good and even necessary to have times at which you can avoid contact with other humans. The problem is that if you're depressed, you usually don't feel really when you had enough alone time and need social contact to balance that.

it's also a factor with how many people you interact and how good you know them. Generally speaking it is more useful to get interaction with people you know and like than strangers. A couple of friends is, in all cases I have witnessed - including my own - all the interaction that is really needed, or sometimes just that friend that is the one with whom you can talk about what troubles you or the one you can be silly with or... whatever quality you need at that moment in a friend.

I'll get back to your other questions later, I need to go for now.

[Lyn Farel]

You find our current society technocratic ?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

On to your second question:

In my experience the feelings aren't deeper than they normally go. What makes the difference is when those feelings arise and how I can - or rather am unable - to relate to them in a way that allows me to manage the emotions. While normal people are able to set aside their emotions (and thoughts) for some time more or less successfully, I can't do just that when depression strikes. Not because the feelings are especially intense or wear one down with time, but simply because the mechanism that allows others to set them aside for a time and deal with them when appropriate doesn't function. It's like with someone who has a damaged brain causing him to not feel his leg anymore and not registering what his legs are doing: It' not that he can't walk because the leg doesn't have the power or because he's too quickly exhausted by walking, but because he doesn't feel whether the feet ar on the gound or not etc. If you're in such a situation, you suddenly realise how important proprioception is for navigating your physical surroundings.

Similarly, 'emotional proprioception' is quite important to navigate the emotional landscape in which we struggle and deal with out feelings. What one is left with is to tackle those things that one normally does unconsciously and automatically, because of the proprioceptive input one receives, consciously. Just like the person with the walking problems would have to check where his feet are by taking a look or such. This is of course quite exhausting (consciously checking your emotional state isn't that easy if you lack the proprioception for it) and therefore it helps to develop a routine that in general allows you too keep your balance.

I don't think that depressions means that something is wrong with how you feel per se, but with how you relate to your feelings and and therefore an inability to deal with them as non-depressive people do. That being unable to deal with ones emotions properly leads to emotional states that are unhealthy is merely a consequence. It's hard to explain to someone who relates normally to his own emotional states, but I think the example with the walking above gives an idea of how depression is for me.

As to your third question, it's kind of a mixture for me. I still lack those easy access to my emotional state sometime which I described above as 'emotional proprioception'. It's astonishing though how adaptable humans are. As I notice that I'm not noticing how I feel, that I'm cut from the access to my emotional state, I can easily determine it by singing. The timbre of the voice, the ease with which I can sing a single tone over a prolonged duration, the song that comes first to my mind all give me a really good indication of the emotional state I am in. I don't use the usual way to sense how I feel, but it doesn't make much of a difference to me. So, it's neither something I could ignore and much less resist, but something I can substitute. It's not gone, but It's not that I am suffering from it, most of the time, either. It all boiled down to knowing oneself and finding out how it works for me -  and accepting that it works differently for me than for others, who are able to 'simply pull themselves together'.

What I'd like to add is that, while I talked mainly about emotions, what I said is also true for thoughts. There can be thought with propositional content that one can't relate to in a way that allows for effective control of these thoughts. Typically, these are thoughts like "I can't do that", "I'm worthless" etc. thoughts that every normal human can have once in a while, but is able to put away by discarding them as excessive exaggerations borne out of momentary frustration. It is obvious that if you can't really relate to being in this state emotionally it's not easy to connect the thought with the emotion and deal with it as would be appropriate. Depression is something that doesn't only affect how one relates and deals with ones feelings, but also with ones thoughts.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

You find our current society technocratic ?

Yes, quite so. I think that the problems of society are nowadays mainly seen as solely scientific, technical, engineering problems, which can and should be solved by correcting/repairing social mechanisms, by the discipline of social engineering. I also see a tendency of people to place unjustified belief into the power of science to prognosticate and technically control.

I agree with the physicist and philosopher Gerhard Vollmer and others that the realization, even though there has been unprecedented progress in science and technology, we are still far from controlling it to the degree that the salvific promise of the perfectability of the world could be made a reality is the great humiliation for our civilization that is founded in technology and science.

So, both the view on society that I observe in people around me and the humiliation I can discern in the words of so many, when they realize that their belief in science was unjustified, leads me to the belief that we Westerners do, in fact, live in a technocratic society of scientism.

[Iwan Terpalen]

A couple things I am curious about - is human interaction always helpful? I mean, I have a friend who says he's a bit of an introvert - he likes to be alone, or only with a couple friends. More human interaction than that is exhausting for him. Can interacting with more or fewer people have a bearing on how you feel?

Sheer quantity of interaction certainly wouldn't fix things, for a depressed introvert. The main thing about being an introvert, for me, is that it's draining rather than energizing to be around people. I still need a minimum of meaningful human contact, though - being completely alone or unable to build some kind of rapport with people for a long time is a trigger for me.

That can turn into a bit of a trap. The way being depressed saps your willpower and narrows your mental bandwidth, the simple effort involved in going to see people, keeping up a conversation with them, or even just confiding that I'm feeling down can seem like an insurmountable obstacle, even though I know I'd feel better afterwards.

Second, how deep do these feelings go? When I'm struggling with an emotion, I usually find it relatively easy to just set it aside, figure out what I want to do, and do it. Is depression/sadness more incapacitating because of its intensity, or because it wears you down over time?

Some people suffering major depression do feel intensely bad for long periods of time. I count myself lucky to not be one of them. I experience it mostly as a slow erosion of willpower and the ability to take pleasure in things. Simple actions suddenly seem to take massive amounts of mental effort. Where a normal hard day at work might leave me tired but content, on a down cycle it leaves me merely tired, and with a vague sense of dread for the next one. Small problems loom larger than life, large ones I feel I can't even afford to think about, and most insidiously, resting becomes guilt-ridden idleness rather than a simple, recuperative pleasure.

At the very lows, I suppose I do feel quite bad - but then I tend to be too sleep-deprived or permanently stressed out about minor things to really, consciously feel my own mood.

Third, when you are out of it, for a period or perhaps permanently, is it still hovering around the edges, something you ignore and simply resist, or is it really gone, and you just have to guard against a return?

Mr. Depression has always been waiting in the wings, for me, although after a few years of therapy, finding I can have some perception of when he's about to strike and agency in resisting him, I've good hope that he won't come out nearly as often (or intensely.) Jude's habits above are all excellent for keeping him at bay, although I'm not nearly as rigorous in applying them (yet.)

[Lyn Farel]

You find our current society technocratic ?

Yes, quite so. I think that the problems of society are nowadays mainly seen as solely scientific, technical, engineering problems, which can and should be solved by correcting/repairing social mechanisms, by the discipline of social engineering. I also see a tendency of people to place unjustified belief into the power of science to prognosticate and technically control.

I agree with the physicist and philosopher Gerhard Vollmer and others that the realization, even though there has been unprecedented progress in science and technology, we are still far from controlling it to the degree that the salvific promise of the perfectability of the world could be made a reality is the great humiliation for our civilization that is founded in technology and science.

So, both the view on society that I observe in people around me and the humiliation I can discern in the words of so many, when they realize that their belief in science was unjustified, leads me to the belief that we Westerners do, in fact, live in a technocratic society of scientism.

Ah, I see.

I'm rather fine and happy with it. Though our governments are far from fitting to that model. Rather the cult of popularity (democracy) over expertise (technocracy)...

But I'm derailing the thread...

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Though our governments are far from fitting to that model. Rather the cult of popularity (democracy) over expertise (technocracy)...

I'm living in Germany, that might play a role.

[Kala]

Sheer quantity of interaction certainly wouldn't fix things, for a depressed introvert. The main thing about being an introvert, for me, is that it's draining rather than energizing to be around people. I still need a minimum of meaningful human contact, though - being completely alone or unable to build some kind of rapport with people for a long time is a trigger for me.

That can turn into a bit of a trap. The way being depressed saps your willpower and narrows your mental bandwidth, the simple effort involved in going to see people, keeping up a conversation with them, or even just confiding that I'm feeling down can seem like an insurmountable obstacle, even though I know I'd feel better afterwards.

Can relate to this a lot.  The absolute first thing I do when I feel I can't cope is batten down the hatches.  I'll still do the things I feel obligated to (usually) but social obligations - particularly of acquaintances rather than close friends - are likely to go on the backburner (excuses made not to go, or prior agreement cancelled).  Because, even though I know logically cutting myself off is a very bad idea and not going to help matters, interacting with others is an effort I don't think I can summon up from my reserves.  I guess also the concern that I won't be alert enough in some way to interact 'properly'.

(Less a problem with close friends, as I don't feel I have to interact properly, so it doesn't effect the already depleted resources).

That can spiral quite badly,  into a frame of mind where I can easily convince myself that not seeing anyone is the best thing all round. If I didn't have people to convince me otherwise, it probably wouldn't go well for me. 


edit: which has somehow reminded me of Depression Quest. Not sure if someone's mentioned it, but a good insight into depression along with the Hyperbole and a Half comics.  It's uh, not cheerful though (as you might expect):
http://www.depressionquest.com/dqfinal.html

[Lyn Farel]

Though our governments are far from fitting to that model. Rather the cult of popularity (democracy) over expertise (technocracy)...

I'm living in Germany, that might play a role.

I may not like Merkel very much, but if I could get a more technocratic government I wouldnt complain... 

[Kopenhagen]

And now on the topic of introvert and extrovert.

I really dislike classifying myself as either of these. The reason I don't like classifying myself as either is because I refuse to put myself in a box and limit my actions or interaction based on that. If I told myself I was an introvert, I might think that I cannot have fun around people, which is not true, Same with being extrovert, I can certainly have fun on my own and around others. What matters is context.

With some people I feel drained quite quickly, whereas I have friends who recharge me in minutes and with whom I can spends hours upon hours in interaction.

I will quote this bit from the wiki article, saves me having to rewrite the same idea.

Extraversion and introversion are typically viewed as a single continuum. Thus, to be high on one it is necessary to be low on the other. Carl Jung and the authors of the Myers–Briggs provide a different perspective and suggest that everyone has both an extroverted side and an introverted side, with one being more dominant than the other. Rather than focusing on interpersonal behavior, however, Jung defined introversion as an "attitude-type characterised by orientation in life through subjective psychic contents" (focus on one's inner psychic activity); and extraversion as "an attitude type characterised by concentration of interest on the external object", (the outside world).

In any case, people fluctuate in their behavior all the time, and even extreme introverts and extraverts do not always act according to their type.

Important bit in bold, we are complex beings and using simple terms to define ourselves by often means we limit our scope for action and interaction.

Right, this is a bit of a personal peeve, so sorry if this is grossly off topic.

[Kala]

Is not entirely off topic particularly (albeit an offshoot) given there was a discussion about the extent social interaction could help someone who is already depressed, and that extrovert/introvert may have a bearing on that (I've also heard the term ambivert? which I assume means somewhere in-between)

Anyhoo.  I understand your distrust of labels when applied to people and agree we are complex beings and to try and separate us into 2 boxes is reductive.  That said, I also figure language is complex and a lot of the time we're just trying to boil complicated concepts down a bit to make them easier to use and understand (much like the Myers-Briggs also referenced in the wiki article).  There's no reason to limit ourselves or our behaviour by them. 

I don't disagree with anything you said or the wiki article you quoted, but then, I don't see the problem with the terms either.  As I see it, the problem with 'introvert' and 'extrovert' is connotation - a lot of people tend to see 'introvert' to mean shy and withdrawn and 'extrovert' as sociable and outgoing; where one has a more positive connotation than the other.  (Which is not to say an introvert can't be withdrawn and shy, just that isn't what it means.) 

Introverts can well be outgoing, though it's likely to be draining after an extended period of time.

Personally, I can have fun around people, definitely. But on my own terms with people I'm pretty comfortable with/know well.  After hours of interacting with the public, for example, I'll be exhausted rather than energised. I've been mistaken for an extrovert online and sometimes in real life as I can be loud and opinionated and very animated on subjects that interest me.

I do think, though, it's valid to point out (as Iwan Terpalen did) that while social interaction in general is healthy and helpful, if someone is already predisposed to find extended interaction draining (be it introversion, or whatever term would be useful) then pressuring them (say, for example, to attend a large party) when depressed with already diminished motivation and reserves may not be the best thing for them under those circumstances.  As you say, context is important and it depends on the person.

Though I do believe walling is yourself off completely is a very bad idea, however tempting, and very much agree with your 'see a person' rule. 

[Kala]

Something went horribly wrong there :S
Oh. I went for 'modify' and hit 'quote'. <.< >.>

[Steffanie Saissore]

Having done several personality test/quizzes (the validity of some I would call into question), having taking a few psychology, sociology, and philosophy courses in university, my own self-interest in finding out who I am, and people-watching...we are a strange and complex organism.

Growing up, I knew I was introverted and cautious...I don't like making a fool of myself and I don't like to let go; I need to be in control of myself at all times. Don't know why, just feel that I do. I had maybe three or four friends growing up and would spend more time with myself than with friends.  The other thing that I had to contend with growing up was the gross misconception parents and other people had about depression: growing up, I was always told never to feel sorry for myself and not to look for pity or complain as these were all considered signs of attention-seeking. This made it very hard for me to finally seek out help for depression later on in life and likely one of the contributing factors to my first intimate relationship breaking apart.

Being told that depression is selfish and that one just needs to suck it up and carry on had a profound impact on me developmentally. I find it incredibly difficult even now to talk about myself or admit to someone that I have a problem and need help. I know I need help, but I feel that I'm imposing on the person or maybe my problem really isn't that bad and that I should just ride it out.  I look back and wonder what might have been different if things had been a little different and that the depression had been diagnosed sooner and treated while I was younger?  However, I have also found that way of thinking to be a dangerous trap as well.

On one hand I would like to say that the time I spent alone growing up with just me and my thoughts and then my writings, gave me a better understanding of myself and that coupled with faith and spirituality made me a stronger person through all that I did go through. On the other hand, I sometimes want to say why couldn't I get the help I needed then instead of after the fact?

I use the terms introverted and shy when describing myself, which for the most part is accurate, but I also know that I am not introverted and shy. I like being alone, yet I need to get out and be around people. We like to try to simplify things to single word terms (moreso it seems these days than in the past) and simple can be good, but it can also, as stated, be limiting and in essence create a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. We are not simple, single term beings. I don't follow it nearly as closely as I sometimes would like, but the field of psychology is still developing (in my opinion); there have been many keen insights, but we're still finding that we know next to very little about the human brain (of course, I could be wrong about this, but a quick look at the news and other observations leaves me thinking we still have so much to learn). The fact that only thirty years ago people didn't really give depression the serious attention that it needs shows we're still feeling about in the dark trying to figure things out.

I could go on and on and I think this post probably wanders all over the place...but at the end of the day, it is good to know that you are not alone...and that is, in my opinion, the most dangerous thing about depression..the fact that you feel very much alone. It is hard, but talk to someone (I talked to my teddy bear...say what you will, but it helped me) even just for the sake of talking. Don't worry about having a down day; don't suck it up and carry on by yourself. If you can't talk to someone, and I'm not saying this could work for everyone, but it did work for me, write yourself a letter. Could be about what you did during the day or could even be about nothing in particular. But, I guess, what I am really trying to say is, say something to someone.

Anyway, will wrap this little stream of consciousness up now...

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Though our governments are far from fitting to that model. Rather the cult of popularity (democracy) over expertise (technocracy)...

I'm living in Germany, that might play a role.

I may not like Merkel very much, but if I could get a more technocratic government I wouldnt complain... 

Well, if you think that societies (and by extension humans) need repair (rather than healing) if they don't function like desired (so they should conform to a desired function) and are merely mechanisms (rather than interacting living beings)... The technocratic expertise is just that, technical. I don't think that this is what is needed to form and propagate a healthy society.

In fact, I personally see a main reason for the flood of psychological disorders in our western society in our technocratic scientism. I think it misses some fundamental properties of reality that are important for the continued wellbeing of many (if not all) humans.