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[Ollie]

Would it be more science fiction if the Minmatar were not human?  How would that change the story?

Like in District 9 ?

A lot.

District 9 itself was inspired by historical human events.

District 9 was also containing a lot of SciFy elements (the ship(s), the mutating agent, the guns, etc). It was maybe not huge, but it was there.

Not saying that without any SF elements it's not scify though. But we are in Eve...

The best fiction, sci-fi or otherwise, always forces the reader to consider the human condition.

The way I'm interpreting the current trend of 'human drama' is in the context of a game that plays (somewhat superficially) on trans-human tensions. I'll admit that I've read some Eclipse Phase source materials recently too, so that might be colouring my view

We have these behemoth intergalactic empires struggling under the weight of their own humanity and 'old-world imperialist' concerns while simultaneously witnessing (and wondering how to control) the rapid expansion of a new era of humanity - the informorph/clone - where those same concerns are all but rendered null and void.

Who cares if some baseliner on a planet in some part of space one doesn't have a vested interest in murders other baseliners or acts in self defense? Why mourn for a disgraced Executor with an extremist political outlook that once served merely to prop up his corner of the old empires? Is your clone invested in the ideology of old or are they looking for a new way forward and what sacrifices is your character willing to make along the way?

I hope (not sure I'm right) that CCP is making use of these stories to illustrate the contrast between human concerns and that of the infomorph and transhuman. It seems to fit with their unstated drive to make the backstory of the second decade about the player and their impact on the game world rather than the NPCs and their actions as Rhavas (I think) noted in a blog earlier this year.

[Etienne Saissore]

Exploring societal issues with cybernetic augs, rogue AIs, aliens etc is a common theme in speculative fiction, and the whole point is to explore how would it affect the story. Bringing real life arguments directly in the game is possible only in the Federal context, but like Ayallah says, if I understood her correctly, only gives ammo for metagaming tactics.

The societal questions revolving Cybernetic augs are real.   Between Oscar Pistorius's engineered lower legs to societal reactions to Google Glass, I think any story dealing with cybernetic augmentation can be set in 2015, if not 2012.  Is that science fiction?

Rogue AIs while more complex than tracking/advertising algorithms, but if we started to delve into the story about Google's or Amazon's tracking algorithms and its impact on a person or society and then how a single computer virus transformed a particular users experience, it could be set in 2013.  It may not be a rogue AI following what appears to be its own agenda, but the idea of software when presented with false, incomplete, or overly complete data could have many of the same results.

I think real life arguments can be brought in through the other 4 core factions as well.  Each faction can be an exploration of various aspects of western society taken to some extreme.

Taken to the extreme is the point. If you take an issue and bring it up in an futuristic theocracy, or in the militaristic, indoctrinated State, or in a collapsed society, I think it's easier to put a different spin to it than if you remain in a generic western setting.

The AI/aug themes were just examples of how a societal division and the theme of the thread have been introduced in a setting which is close to the modern day/near future western world, basically what Lyn wrote in her post. It's true that these contraptions are rapidly losing their novelty value.

[Syagrius]

It's always been my impression that the Federation is not racist but is, instead CULTURALLY IMPERIALISTIC. Midular was spreading Minmatar culture within the Federation. The Brutor who has been held pending conviction is a Minmatar from outside the Federation, I think.

The Federation has always been interested and deeply concerned with exporting it's culture outside of it's borders and integrating disparate cultures within it's borders. Isn't that what the Cal/Gal war was about?

Pieter I think your assessment is spot on. 

Why oh why don't you people want to be free like we tell you to be free. 

[Aria Jenneth]

It's always been my impression that the Federation is not racist but is, instead CULTURALLY IMPERIALISTIC. Midular was spreading Minmatar culture within the Federation. The Brutor who has been held pending conviction is a Minmatar from outside the Federation, I think.

The Federation has always been interested and deeply concerned with exporting it's culture outside of it's borders and integrating disparate cultures within it's borders. Isn't that what the Cal/Gal war was about?

Pieter I think your assessment is spot on. 

Why oh why don't you people want to be free like we tell you to be free. 

It is, except that a liiiiiittle touch of racism isn't mutually exclusive with that. I don't think the idea is that the Federation is overtly racist, just that race is not a non-issue. There are ugly undercurrents. (There seem to be, everywhere they aren't overcurrents.)

We kind of knew that, did we not?

[Morwen Lagann]

The idea that the Federation as an entity takes the stance of "meh, what the fuck ever" with regards to race, and any 'racist' tones are caused by other groups who add it into the equation themselves seems about right to me.

As an example, going back to the little employment/affirmative action news arc we had a while back - the Federation sees Minmatar as just that - people who are of Minmatar descent. But it doesn't give two shits bureaucratically about their clan or tribe because it isn't seen as relevant. "They're Minmatar. That's nice. Nobody cares what clan or tribe they're from, it's not relevant here."

That only becomes a racism issue when the Minmatar start stamping their feet about it because they are bringing their values into the mix instead of doing things the way the Federation does it. They see tribes and clans as important bits of data worth caring about and making decisions with, and when they use that as part of their way of doing things, someone's bound to get upset by it - probably because they expected (rightfully so) that it would not be done the way it's done in the Republic, in the Federation.

[Aria Jenneth]

Hmmmm.

I ... actually don't quite think so, Morwen. It's been noted, to throw out an example, that one of the less politically acceptable observations you can make in the Federation is that the Caldari, as a race, are still members-- not because the Caldari State is a breakaway rebel group, but because there are a pile of Caldari-majority planets that didn't rebel.

It's not necessarily racialist or racist per se, but it whiffs of the same kinds of resentment. So do the U-NATs as a movement.

What you're saying is probably quite true of most educated and/or astropolitan Federal citizens (which would include most capsuleers and probably their parents, possibly going back a ways), but not all. As level of education drops off (and you get closer to the bottom of a gravity well-- I gather most Federal colonies are set up by one of its members, not the Federation as a whole), prejudice probably becomes more of a "thing." It's hard to avoid; after all, what dispels it is usually education, regular personal contact, or, ideally, both.

Isolation and poor education tend to lead to backward attitudes.

Probably, you're right insofar as the Federation isn't racist itself. It does, however, inevitably contain piles of racists, and these need not have originated abroad.

[Morwen Lagann]

I'm talking about the Federation as an institution primarily, not racist members of its populace.

Institutionally, it does not condone or endorse racism, because race is considered irrelevant at that level. You're a Federal citizen, your bloodline/race shouldn't be more than a minor footnote for census purposes at most. That kind of thing. As far as paperwork goes. Obviously this is not the case for people seeking office, who will of course stir shit whenever and wherever they get the opportunity.

Are there racist shitbags all over among the citizenry? Sure, it's like that in every empire. But the Federation, as an institituion, is not racist, from what I see. What happens is groups that come to the Federation and become citizens are bringing excess baggage in terms of beliefs and ways of doing things that then clash with the system like that.

The Federation, as an institution, doesn't see any difference between a Sebiestor and a Vherokior. As far as it is concerned, they're both "Federation citizens of Matari descent/origin". As long as they're meeting whatever obligations they have (taxes, etc.), they're entirely below the radar. Issues only arise when, to continue with the example, Minmatar citizens of the Federation start applying clan and tribe as a way of discrimination against their own people, just as they might have done back in the Republic where it would not only be acceptable, but encouraged and expected by society.

In the Republic that kind of shit is totally a fact of life. In the Federation, it's not supposed to be, and on average I expect that it isn't.

To be fair, I read that whole arc (the employment one) as being a bit of a "this is an example of the bad things that can result from affirmative action legislation" more than anything else, but that's another bucket of worms I'm a little hesitant to get into since It Could Offend.

[Aria Jenneth]

I'm talking about the Federation as an institution primarily, not racist members of its populace.

Institutionally, it does not condone or endorse racism, because race is considered irrelevant at that level. You're a Federal citizen, your bloodline/race shouldn't be more than a minor footnote for census purposes at most. That kind of thing. As far as paperwork goes. Obviously this is not the case for people seeking office, who will of course stir shit whenever and wherever they get the opportunity.

Are there racist shitbags all over among the citizenry? Sure, it's like that in every empire. But the Federation, as an institituion, is not racist, from what I see. What happens is groups that come to the Federation and become citizens are bringing excess baggage in terms of beliefs and ways of doing things that then clash with the system like that.

The Federation, as an institution, doesn't see any difference between a Sebiestor and a Vherokior. As far as it is concerned, they're both "Federation citizens of Matari descent/origin". As long as they're meeting whatever obligations they have (taxes, etc.), they're entirely below the radar. Issues only arise when, to continue with the example, Minmatar citizens of the Federation start applying clan and tribe as a way of discrimination against their own people, just as they might have done back in the Republic where it would not only be acceptable, but encouraged and expected by society.

In the Republic that kind of shit is totally a fact of life. In the Federation, it's not supposed to be, and on average I expect that it isn't.

To be fair, I read that whole arc (the employment one) as being a bit of a "this is an example of the bad things that can result from affirmative action legislation" more than anything else, but that's another bucket of worms I'm a little hesitant to get into since It Could Offend.

Oh, I don't think there's any question that there is formal equality of the races in the Federation. There may even be in the Republic. The State insists that its restrictions are all cultural, not racial; a Caldari may be of any race (so long as they don't mind getting married only to similar-looking, IE of-the-same-ethnic-background people). So, formal racial equality there, too. Even the Amarr claim to have formal equality on account of having one great house (I forget which) that isn't 100% True Amarr.

The issue to my mind is that there's a lot of light visible between formal and actual equality. IRL, formal equality is the law of the land all over the planet, but actual equality is quite a bit more rare. It might even be one of those ideals that has become a reality nowhere at all.

Is the Federation formally racist? Of course not. Neither is almost anyone else (if only to avoid unflattering comparisons and accusations of a society based on pseudoscience).

However, does race have major and sometimes detrimental informal effects, even in the Federation? Of course.

If we're in agreement on that, we're likely just arguing two sides of one coin.

[Morwen Lagann]

At this point, yeah, probably.

I would disagree about formal equity in the other empires, though. The Republic clearly doesn't, otherwise we wouldn't have seen the employment issue come up. The Amarr practice a 'benevolent' (in intent) form of institutionalized racism enforced by their religion.

I think the Caldari are more up in the air in this regard, though, and could go either way.