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[Vic Van Meter]

I think the way I react to the thread has a lot to do with whether the character making the claim has a legitimately suspicious nature.  I've just been RPing with it and rolling with the punches because I thought Veik was just that kind of character.  I seriously thought the character just had an ego shtick, so being told something she didn't believe was liable to make her claim pretty much anything but that the universe doesn't necessarily conform to her narrow worldview.  You'd imagine that would be fairly common as a neurosis in Caldari society.  So I gave Veik's player the benefit of the doubt and just went along with it.

The reason I thought that was because I haven't seen any of the current people play characters that I wouldn't have believed it, so I can't figure what the OOC gripe is.  Odelya acts EXACTLY like I'd expect a slightly peevish noblewoman would.  She's arrogant, haughty, and demands respect even before she has proved she deserves it.  These sound like character traits.  It isn't like being a noblewoman has changed her standing in the game world.  Her land holdings aren't a place we can even visit in person.  So I suppose I don't see what the harm in it all is.  Everyone seemed to be having fun lining up against Odelya in different ways.  It wasn't like Odelya was OOCly saying nobody could slag her off and, since none of us that I know of are her subjects, we're perfectly allowed to.  And she's allowed to be indignant.  And we're allowed to react ICly however our characters might.  That is the essence of character RP.

The thing that bothers me slightly is if this whole thing really is an OOC gripe that went IC.  That's a giant, waving red flag in RP when you don't handle these things OOCly.  I had Veik questioning Constantin in a thread and just figured that was part of Veik's character.  If Veik had that opinion because Veik's player had a problem, that's a much nastier issue.  I've never gotten a communication from Veik through EVEmail or otherwise where I was asked what I was doing or what my justifications were for Constantin's position in the Theology Council.  That's sort of the RP golden rule, you leave your OOC drama in OOCland, preferably in your own private OOCland before you do public OOCland.  If someone has an issue, and people have had questions OOCly, you contact the player first, then the OOC community.  In the end, before you ever take an OOC issue into character, you just ignore that person and let the rest of the playerbase figure out whether they are going to RP with that person or not.

As I've said, since I didn't get an kind of OOC communication yet, I just sort of assumed that was part of Veik's character.  If it isn't and this really is an IC attack from a purely OOC rational, I can't hold that against anyone else but Veik.  It might sound fun at first, but it grinds RP to a screeching halt and factionalizes the player base unnecessarily.  You always handle your issues personally and OOCly first, and you never bleed your OOC into your RP.  Ever.  It never ends well, just with a lot of hurt feelings on somebody's part.  This is a pastime after all.  PVP is a competition, RP is a cooperative endeavor.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

See the issue of Caldari cultural insularity comes into play here. As one of the more isolationist of the Caldari Corp CEOs, and someone who has no interest in the fluffier end of the RP community, Veik had both IC and OOC reasons to try and put the boot in on someone who claims to be violating State law on capsuleers baselining and State custom on foreign faiths.

Constantin then claims to have some sort of official position in an NPC organisation and that is a bit of a red flag to our Veikitamo, who feels  that if you can't back the claim up in space, you shouldn't be making it.

That's really the extent of things. It's not rocket science and it doesn't need umpty-billion paragraphs of deconstruction. You're either in those camps or you aren't.

[Vic Van Meter]

Then that's sort of the difference; I very clearly delineate IC and OOC issues.  My characters have IC problems, which they address in RP and I have OOC issues, which I address personally.  If Veik had an OOC problem with me, I'm easily reachable in person through EVEmail at the very least.

If it's totally IC, that's fine.  If it's based on an OOC problem, I'd really rather deal with it in person rather than having these kinds of dramatic OOC dust ups that get all of you involved.  Now people who are or are not in 'those camps' are in the unenviable position of having to argue about it.  Because it's in the RP now, and we don't have a choice but to deal with it in character.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

To be fair, it's an IGS post. You can deal with it in-character by ignoring it for the five days or so it'll take it to drop off the bottom of the screen.

[Arista Shahni]

Point is, baselining in Caldari society as a Capsuleer is the recepie for a bullet to the back of the skull blowing out Implant 1 and the rest of the base of the brain, regardless of what you're doing - at least as far as I am  aware.  The society is very rigid - FAR more so than the Amarr - in their caste system.  Capsuleers are not to mingle with baseliners - especially foreigners - planetside, stationwise, or otherwise.

If that's wrong, someone correct me.  But that's pretty much the very strong impression given from PF / Cronicles (Jita 4-4 I think is its name)

[Odelya]

Do not take it as an offense but that's a consequential fallacy. It's not because Falcon canonized it that Pyre Falcon considered itself to be associated with KK, it's because PYRE started since the very beginning to say that they were affiliated with KK, and then did sufficient deeds ingame to attract Falcon's attention, for him to eventually legitimize their KK status. In the end, PYRE did the exact same thing at the beginning before it being canonized.

Unfortunately for half if not more factioned RPers who also claim to be a subsidiary of X, or being mandated by X, this is barely going to happen anytime soon. To me it feels pretty much like "I got legitimized by CCP, no matter how it was before, and now I feel that I have the right to curbstomp everyone that has yet to be legitimized by Falcon".

I couldn't agree more, this really is the crucial point.

I think world building for noble Amarr chars is a pretty important thing. Something like 2/3rds of the True Amarr characters are supposed to be noble, so its really not overboard to have many many different backgrounds that involve owning large chunks of real estate.

I think a good rule of thumb is avoid crossing lines that would give you more power in game than you actually have as a player. If you keep your ranks at "Holder" rather than getting too elaborate with the fancier titles and if you keep your holdings as relatively small in the grand scheme of things you are doing a good (and neccessary) job creating a noble character without stepping on too many toes.

I am really not a fan of the "yes you are"/"no you aren't" style of argument that was one of the themes of the threads being mocked by Veik. There has to be a better way to handle that sort of conflict, though I haven't quite put my finger on what can be done once a disagreement like that gets going. I tried to move it away by making the whole discussion about bigger things, but while I have had fun trotting out 8 year old anti-tetrimon arguments and lots of fire and brimstone... I don't think I was quite able to drag the discussion far enough from the "Yes you are, no you aren't dynamic."

Agreed!

Note that there's no material benefit to PYRE being "legit," unless you're of the opinion that a few mentions in colored text is manna from heaven you can't live your life without. It doesn't place us in a position of authority over other double-K affiliated entities, or let us make claims about their legitimacy in any way.

Absolutely!

Nico did never argue whether Odelya is a holder or not. She simply denied Odelya to address her as one. vOv I also liked the RP around that, so I rolled with it.

I enjoyed it too! 

The reason I thought that was because I haven't seen any of the current people play characters that I wouldn't have believed it, so I can't figure what the OOC gripe is.  Odelya acts EXACTLY like I'd expect a slightly peevish noblewoman would.  She's arrogant, haughty, and demands respect even before she has proved she deserves it.  These sound like character traits.  It isn't like being a noblewoman has changed her standing in the game world.  Her land holdings aren't a place we can even visit in person.  So I suppose I don't see what the harm in it all is.  Everyone seemed to be having fun lining up against Odelya in different ways.  It wasn't like Odelya was OOCly saying nobody could slag her off and, since none of us that I know of are her subjects, we're perfectly allowed to.  And she's allowed to be indignant.  And we're allowed to react ICly however our characters might.  That is the essence of character RP.

I am happy to read that you think that way!

The thing that bothers me slightly is if this whole thing really is an OOC gripe that went IC.  That's a giant, waving red flag in RP when you don't handle these things OOCly.

This is what I tend to believe, but I am eager to hear what the original poster of the mentioned thread has to say about it.

P.S.: Sorry for the monster post.

[Veik2.0Revengeance]

The value of a joke is always diminished if it has to be explained.

If it is not clear as to why both I as the player and the character I play are at present laughing - Veikitamo due to the IGS and I due to this thread, then what do either gain in providing elaboration if vicarious amusement is the objective?

However, I might drop a hint and ask a hypothetical question:

What difference is there between an absurdist-comedian and a logician?

I might even provide some audiovisual aids courtesy of those lovable Brits and their Flying Circus:

IGS and the Roleplay Community of Backstage (With a cameo by Veik and her player as Germans)

IGS and Roleplay Discussions

Roleplay in General

[Silas Vitalia]

Hello!

Can someone summarize what the IC claims were that were happening?

I don't know the details but I can promise you no Amarr capsuleers are baselining in the State and prostheletizing without a post-haste bullet to the head.  The State absolutely does not put up with that sort of rabble-rousing and rocking the orderly boat.  Especially in the currently dicey political situation. 

It's been written before that even regular capsuleers baselining in the State are almost always kill on sight, someone trying to preach or call even the smallest amount of attention to themselves would be taken out so fast as to make your head spin.

[Veik2.0Revengeance]

Hello!

Can someone summarize what the IC claims were that were happening?

I don't know the details but I can promise you no Amarr capsuleers are baselining in the State and prostheletizing without a post-haste bullet to the head.  The State absolutely does not put up with that sort of rabble-rousing and rocking the orderly boat.  Especially in the currently dicey political situation. 

It's been written before that even regular capsuleers baselining in the State are almost always kill on sight, someone trying to preach or call even the smallest amount of attention to themselves would be taken out so fast as to make your head spin.

I'd say that's a bit unfair of an assertion to make, and would really stifle the necessity of creative effort and world-building in the RP community.

[AOkazon]

Wait, what the hell is baselining? Just, like, going to an ordinary restaurant and hanging out with non-capsuleers?

That seems really psychotic even for the Caldari.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Wait, what the hell is baselining? Just, like, going to an ordinary restaurant and hanging out with non-capsuleers?

That seems really psychotic even for the Caldari.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Baselining

[Silas Vitalia]

Hello!

Can someone summarize what the IC claims were that were happening?

I don't know the details but I can promise you no Amarr capsuleers are baselining in the State and prostheletizing without a post-haste bullet to the head.  The State absolutely does not put up with that sort of rabble-rousing and rocking the orderly boat.  Especially in the currently dicey political situation. 

It's been written before that even regular capsuleers baselining in the State are almost always kill on sight, someone trying to preach or call even the smallest amount of attention to themselves would be taken out so fast as to make your head spin.

I'd say that's a bit unfair of an assertion to make, and would really stifle the necessity of creative effort and world-building in the RP community.

It's not about being unfair or stifling anything.  I think we make decisions as a group to work with the existing PF and make our stories work within that framework or we decide not to.  Sometimes we skirt the edges, sometimes we decide to break PF in specific areas.  These things happen all the time, but when we are doing an interactive world-building, conversation, etc, sometimes its good to have a mutual framework.

It's less important when we are off world building our own little sandcastles, its more important when we are messing with other people's sandcastles.   Amarr RPers would likely take issue with a Caldari player saying they've set up a megacorp subsidiary on the front steps of the main cathedral on Athra selling Tibus Heth t-shirts and noodles, because it doesn't make sense with how most of us understand the faction and what the Amarr would possibly put up with.

People of course feel differently about these things, I find the PF "boundaries" to be a great way to be more creative, not less, but thats just my opinion.  I think working within an established framework can be liberating in plenty of ways. 

Here's the relevant section though:

On most Caldari stations, capsuleers who attempt to baseline (or are at least known to be doing so) with no pre-existing megacorporate record are attached a temporary station ID[1]. They are expected to remain incognito and attract absolutely no attention to themselves. Three counts of vagrant behaviour will see them removed and returned to capsuleer areas, while larger violations, such as having their cover blown, will see capsuleers shot-on-sight by station security. This regulation is not much different on planets, where the megacorporations have the same level of monolithic control as on stations. Capsuleers solve these issues by either creating a name for themselves and/or utilizing their connections, or simply remain under the radar from the corporate authorities altogether.
 
I'm not trying to be PF nazi, but sometimes finding creative ways around the PF can be fun and interesting.  Maybe there's some Caldari colony out in the wilderness where things are a bit looser? Maybe there's an exchange program allowing some limited sermonizing in certain designated areas of a station? Like a little 'free speech' zone most of the factory workers are happy to ignore but maybe a few are interested in hearing more?  Who knows.

[Silas Vitalia]

I hope my tone is not misread as being snarky or anything along those lines, this it not my intent.  You can of course do, write, or say anything you like, but where we draw the lines of working with the established fictional framework and where we decide to break them is an important issue in a mutually constructed environment.


This sort of thing comes up now and then where someone supporting X faction claims to do something to Y faction that rubs a lot of Y supporters the wrong way.  Respecting the other people's PF sandcastle is usually a smoother road to take when working with others.

[Vic Van Meter]

As a note, I actually have read the relevant data.  I actually do have a very good reason why Constantin Baracca is not killed on site and why he has a branch of what is ostensibly his diocese operating in Caldari space.  I will very happily blow the IC storyline stuff if that's necessary, but I'm not going to do it on this forum.  It fits very heavily into that [REDACTED] stuff in his character sheet.  I thought I'd pretty much spelled it out so far, how he's managing to get away with it, but I'll definitely explain it if people haven't figured out how he's doing it.

I'm only doing it in person though.  People are having a lot of IC fun figuring out how the Hell he's getting away with this stuff, and I'm not ruining it for everyone who's figuring this out on their own.

If it's really breaking someone's immersion, though, I can OOC explain it to you in person.  Send me a mail.  I'll be happy to walk you through it.

[Ollie]

People of course feel differently about these things, I find the PF "boundaries" to be a great way to be more creative, not less, but thats just my opinion.  I think working within an established framework can be liberating in plenty of ways. 

Here's the relevant section though:

On most Caldari stations, capsuleers who attempt to baseline (or are at least known to be doing so) with no pre-existing megacorporate record are attached a temporary station ID[1]. They are expected to remain incognito and attract absolutely no attention to themselves. Three counts of vagrant behaviour will see them removed and returned to capsuleer areas, while larger violations, such as having their cover blown, will see capsuleers shot-on-sigh by station security. This regulation is not much different on planets, where the megacorporations have the same level of monolithic control as on stations. Capsuleers solve these issues by either creating a name for themselves and/or utilizing their connections, or simply remain under the radar from the corporate authorities altogether.

Point of clarification before I comment here - is that paraphrased from the Jita 4-4 chronicle only or are there other PF articles that support it as well?

The reason being is that Jita 4-4 doesn't actually state anything quite so broad as what you're outlining there. The three strikes and you're out rule references a particular law of Jita 4-4 pertaining to vagrancy. It doesn't differentiate vagrancy committed by capsuleers compared with vagrancy committed by non-capsuleers. It does not give any information on how vagrancy is treated planet-side.

A few paragraphs later in the same chronicle, the narrator - who is in Jita 4-4 to "take a hit contract on some civilian in the crosshairs of a person with too much money and some serious grudges" notes:

It's a non-starter for me anyways. If I fall asleep, then they'll see soon enough. They'll notice the sockets at the base of the neck, telltale signs of trouble.

While pleasantly dreaming, I'd be giving them an excuse, a reason, a motivation to look closely enough, and they'd realize quickly what I am. In these situations where we are uncovered, alone and incognito, lurking amongst the masses, they find it easier to just shoot us.

When capsuleers are involved, it's the only path with a predictable end.

If they woke me, and let me know that they know, well, who knows what would happen next?

I could be loaded with nanite viruses, armed with invisible spy drones, laced with biological contaminants. Who knows?

Again, talking about a specific situation - uncovered and previously incognito, giving rise to suspicion of motive - in the context of a highly controlled environment in the space station. It doesn't speak specifically to what procedures might or might not be in place planet-side, nor does it suggest how different megacorps or subsidaries may address this problem. Jita 4-4 is a Caldari Navy station if I'm not mistaken so a shoot first, wonder about the might-have-beens later seems a reasonable attitude for their security forces to adopt.

I don't know - as I said in the opening sentence of this post - if there is other PF you're basing this on. I just couldn't find anything that unequivocally supports your statement that regulations in regards to capsuleer KOS in Jita 4-4 (outside of registered capsuleer areas) are "not much different on planets".

If I'm not mistaken, it seems to be your interpretation of PF rather than the facts themselves. If that is the case then by applying these as "your PF" you're creating the same sandcastles you mentioned and may well be messing with the sandcastles of others who interpret that PF in a different manner, yes?